dacrizzow

coming from a guy who will probably never see 1st or 2nd, racing 50th over 55th is what the other 90% of us are doing.

J. Michael Manning

Hey folks,
I do not typically like to get involved in these lengthy debates over
something that may have as many facets as there are opinion givers. However,
I feel that I have been drawn in out of necessity. This debate has gone too
far and I hope to end it here. First of all, I am the Masters 50+ rider who
collided with Trevor. Perhaps Trevor just wants to hear from me. So here it
is...

There have been many good points mentioned in this discussion on both sides
of the argument. It is always said that there are two sides to every
argument, but I contend that there is always at least three. Aside from the
party who feels affronted (Trevor) and therefore compelled to openly
complain, there is the observer who feels he brings an unbiased view of the
incident (Ron) and the other party involved in the incident (me). Let me
start with saying that I understand and sympathize with Trevor. I hate that
you are now injured. I simply have a rip in my new cross kit and an open
wound on my hip where I landed on a root or worse. But I am okay... You are
a talented young racer with a strong competitive spirit. I applaud you for
that. I also believe you to be an intelligent young man as reflected in the
verse of your argument. But there is a lesson to be learned about the
reality of racing, taking risks and being patient. I think that Shane Gibson
expressed it best. A disclaimer here... even though Shane races for Team
CycleOne, when he posted his opinion he had no idea that I was in any way
involved in this crash. Shane is a strong rider with a strong competitive
drive. He understands risk as well as patience. Anyone who races against
Shane knows this.

Before I elaborate on the event based on my perspective, let me first dispel
a few of the things mentioned by Ron... anything that is speculative should
be kept out of the discussion simply because it is imperative to stick to
the facts. To the outsider, it is made to appear that I was a struggling
rider who was in over his head early in the race. Not so... The embarrassing
truth is that I was flagged for being on the course earlier in the day while
a race was going on (unbeknownst to me) and so I was penalized by being
disallowed to start with my own race category. Instead, I was forced to
start with the 60+ riders approximately 30 seconds later. So Trevor was not
the only one chasing a leader. I was pursuing the entire 50+ field. I pride
myself in being a strong racer and superior athlete. I base my coaching
principles on my experience and belief system. Granted that I am a roadie
and not a cross expert! I still expect to finish in the top five of any
race. Even under the circumstances of this race (late start and a crash), I
still managed to pass half the field. And by the way Ron, I did finish ahead
of you at Rainier! Don Leet was the only 60+ rider ahead of me at the
finish.

Now for the facts of the situation through my eyes... at the point where the
incident occurred, about halfway through the first lap, we were overtaking
some of the riders at the tail end of the 50+ race. Of course Trevor assumed
I was at the back of the pack. What he did not know was that I had just
passed all the same riders he had. When the lead junior passed me after
announcing his intention to pass, I knew he was the junior race leader.
That's just race awareness... i do not need an announcement about who he is!
When Trevor approached with intention of passing, I was already locked into
a passing position myself. I never would intentionally block another rider
under any circumstances. On this course at this particular spot, all I could
do was make the pass and move over to the right to allow Trevor to pass me.
That is exactly what I did. I never heard any shouted command resembling a
decision to change course and pass me on the right. Many times, just because
you call out, you cannot expect that your voice is correctly heard. I would
apologize if I felt that I had, in fact, done anything wrong that would
damage your race prospects. But I do feel that you and you alone caused the
accident by being impatient and trying to charge by on the right even though
I had moved right to allow you by on the left. You lost way more time on the
ground than you would have if I had blocked you... just another basic tenet
of effective cross racing strategy. Staying upright makes for a much faster
race performance. Victory generally goes to the more skillful rider not the
faster one. That is why I admonished you to not be so aggressive. I heard
your frustration as you rode away and I too applaud you for charging ahead.
With each race we grow stronger and wiser. Good luck in the future,
Trevor!!!
Regards,
Coach Mike Manning
CycleOne Coaching

--
"Athletic Excellence is my Business"

eric aldinger

Real story. I was racing a section with tight turns. I was requested to
yeild the left line, which I did. However the overtaking rider yelled at me
for not yeilding the inside line (which was now on the right, as we had
entered a new turn). I was told I was unsportsman like, even though I
had consistantly yeilded the line requested.

Place in the pack aside, it is incumbent upon the person passing to use
courtesy and consistancy in requesting their line, and demonstrating
patience and timing in taking it.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:41 PM, wrote:

> And we appreciate and respect each one of the officials working these
> venues!!!!! I know I do not say that just for myself.
> I suggest the Board consider increased pay for officials working a schedule
> that puts the pinch on time like what you describe. It is over and above a
> normal schedule. It needs to be institutionalized.
> I worked many 14-16 hour shifts growing up and into my adult life. We
> called it overtime back in the day, but the bottom line was doing the work
> that needed to be done. I know many reading this can relate!
> Our OBRA officials are just amazing. We as an organization need to make
> the time they provide worth their efforts. It is not about cost, but the
> great value we members receive.
> ronnie
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Candi Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:13 PM
> To:
> Cc: ; remailer, OBRA
>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot
> for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of
> you do not see. The officials currenty have about ten minutes to take a
> break and eat lunch. This will either go away completely or their day will
> be extended. It may not seem lokr much to many of you but the current
> schedule is already pretty exhausting.
>
> Candi
>
> On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:44 AM, wrote:
>
> Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time they
>> do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the
>> "leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these
>> leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line or
>> move some for them.
>> But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
>> That said...........
>> If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1)
>> this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young
>> people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with
>> adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series
>> competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids
>> racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids"
>> than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
>> I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more
>> are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I have
>> seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that it
>> just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then the
>> conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and kids.
>> Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own
>> time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than
>> we lose by giving them their own race!
>> ronald h. strasser...........old fart
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Murray
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
>> Cc: remailer, OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of
>> the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th,
>> so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
>> significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
>> the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> Sent via BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
>> To: Thom Schoenborn>;
>> EAL
>> Cc:
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Eric Aldinger

Rick Johnson

Sounds like the bigger events now need two shifts...

Rick

On 10/11/2011 12:46 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
> It is not about the dollars. The ovetime pay is already a part of the pay schedule. But frankly the long days are wearing. We get to the venue one hour before the first start, and then the judge had at least another hour of work when we get home.
>
> Candi
>
> On Oct 11, 2011, at 12:41 PM, wrote:
>
>> And we appreciate and respect each one of the officials working these venues!!!!! I know I do not say that just for myself.
>> I suggest the Board consider increased pay for officials working a schedule that puts the pinch on time like what you describe. It is over and above a normal schedule. It needs to be institutionalized.
>> I worked many 14-16 hour shifts growing up and into my adult life. We called it overtime back in the day, but the bottom line was doing the work that needed to be done. I know many reading this can relate!
>> Our OBRA officials are just amazing. We as an organization need to make the time they provide worth their efforts. It is not about cost, but the great value we members receive.
>> ronnie
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Candi Murray
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:13 PM
>> To:
>> Cc: ; remailer, OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of you do not see. The officials currenty have about ten minutes to take a break and eat lunch. This will either go away completely or their day will be extended. It may not seem lokr much to many of you but the current schedule is already pretty exhausting.
>>
>> Candi
>>
>> On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:44 AM, wrote:
>>
>>> Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time they do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the "leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line or move some for them.
>>> But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
>>> That said...........
>>> If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1) this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids" than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
>>> I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I have seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that it just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then the conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and kids.
>>> Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than we lose by giving them their own race!
>>> ronald h. strasser...........old fart
>>>
>>> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Murray
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
>>> Cc: remailer, OBRA
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>>
>>> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>>>
>>> Mike Murray
>>> Sent via BlackBerry
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From:
>>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>>> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
>>> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
>>> Cc:
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Candi Murray

It is not about the dollars. The ovetime pay is already a part of the pay schedule. But frankly the long days are wearing. We get to the venue one hour before the first start, and then the judge had at least another hour of work when we get home.

Candi

On Oct 11, 2011, at 12:41 PM, wrote:

> And we appreciate and respect each one of the officials working these venues!!!!! I know I do not say that just for myself.
> I suggest the Board consider increased pay for officials working a schedule that puts the pinch on time like what you describe. It is over and above a normal schedule. It needs to be institutionalized.
> I worked many 14-16 hour shifts growing up and into my adult life. We called it overtime back in the day, but the bottom line was doing the work that needed to be done. I know many reading this can relate!
> Our OBRA officials are just amazing. We as an organization need to make the time they provide worth their efforts. It is not about cost, but the great value we members receive.
> ronnie
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Candi Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:13 PM
> To:
> Cc: ; remailer, OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of you do not see. The officials currenty have about ten minutes to take a break and eat lunch. This will either go away completely or their day will be extended. It may not seem lokr much to many of you but the current schedule is already pretty exhausting.
>
> Candi
>
> On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:44 AM, wrote:
>
>> Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time they do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the "leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line or move some for them.
>> But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
>> That said...........
>> If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1) this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids" than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
>> I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I have seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that it just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then the conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and kids.
>> Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than we lose by giving them their own race!
>> ronald h. strasser...........old fart
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Murray
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
>> Cc: remailer, OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> Sent via BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
>> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
>> Cc:
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

rondot@spiritone.com

And we appreciate and respect each one of the officials working these
venues!!!!! I know I do not say that just for myself.
I suggest the Board consider increased pay for officials working a schedule
that puts the pinch on time like what you describe. It is over and above a
normal schedule. It needs to be institutionalized.
I worked many 14-16 hour shifts growing up and into my adult life. We
called it overtime back in the day, but the bottom line was doing the work
that needed to be done. I know many reading this can relate!
Our OBRA officials are just amazing. We as an organization need to make the
time they provide worth their efforts. It is not about cost, but the great
value we members receive.
ronnie

-----Original Message-----
From: Candi Murray
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:13 PM
To:
Cc: ; remailer, OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot
for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of
you do not see. The officials currenty have about ten minutes to take a
break and eat lunch. This will either go away completely or their day will
be extended. It may not seem lokr much to many of you but the current
schedule is already pretty exhausting.

Candi

On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:44 AM, wrote:

> Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time
> they do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the
> "leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these
> leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line
> or move some for them.
> But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
> That said...........
> If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1)
> this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young
> people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with
> adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series
> competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids
> racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids"
> than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
> I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more
> are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I
> have seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that
> it just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then
> the conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and
> kids.
> Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own
> time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than
> we lose by giving them their own race!
> ronald h. strasser...........old fart
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
> Cc: remailer, OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of
> the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of
> 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there
> is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but
> that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Jeff McNamee

Just a friendly reminder, some promoters already (and have done so for
several years) separate Juniors from the adult fields.

Jeff (co-director of Heiser Farms)

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 12:13 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
> The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of you do not see.

Adam Kennedy

Slightly off topic, but I would love to see this same discussion in
regards to time trials. Here, average speed differentials are huge and
the approaching rider may not judge this differential accurately.
Here, juniors could be fatally injured (note the Coburg TT Turnbull
crash for reference).

Adam

Sent from my iPod

On Oct 11, 2011, at 12:10 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

> The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of you do not see. The officials currenty have about ten minutes to take a break and eat lunch. This will either go away completely or their day will be extended. It may not seem lokr much to many of you but the current schedule is already pretty exhausting.
>
> Candi
>
> On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:44 AM, wrote:
>
>> Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time they do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the "leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line or move some for them.
>> But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
>> That said...........
>> If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1) this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids" than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
>> I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I have seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that it just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then the conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and kids.
>> Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than we lose by giving them their own race!
>> ronald h. strasser...........old fart
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Murray
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
>> Cc: remailer, OBRA
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>>
>> Mike Murray
>> Sent via BlackBerry
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
>> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
>> Cc:
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Candi Murray

The promoters are seriously considering giving the juniors their own slot for next season. As when any change is made this one comes with one most of you do not see. The officials currenty have about ten minutes to take a break and eat lunch. This will either go away completely or their day will be extended. It may not seem lokr much to many of you but the current schedule is already pretty exhausting.

Candi

On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:44 AM, wrote:

> Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time they do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the "leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line or move some for them.
> But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
> That said...........
> If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1) this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids" than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
> I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I have seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that it just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then the conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and kids.
> Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than we lose by giving them their own race!
> ronald h. strasser...........old fart
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Murray
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
> Cc: remailer, OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

All the children are above average.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Justin Cox
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:02:47
To: obra
Reply-To: Justin Cox
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

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Mike Murray

The importance diminishes as the number gets bigger. The problem in this thread is that some people don't seem to adhere to this idea and they want all riders, regardless of position, to have equal precedence. It also makes a difference if you are trying to pass someone from your field who is moving at a similar average speed or if you are coming up on someone from a field that was started earlier where the passing rider is moving at a higher average speed.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From:
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:57:37
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20
when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place
coming through : )

.----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

>I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the
>pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so
>what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
>significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
>the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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Mike Richardson

Oh my sides hurt. Credit for the best eMail of the day, Matt! I laughed out loud at work picturing wheezing this out while staying upright in the mud. Clearly humor is oversize in the Clyde field as well.

Mike

On Oct 11, 2011, at 10:23 AM, Matthew Lasala wrote:

> As I try to pass what few people I can, I usually say "Clydesdale, 207 pounds, passing on your right, left and in the middle (since the courses now are so narrow for us big guys) and my main nemeses are Aaron Coker, David Taylor, Joe Larson, Shane Gibson and David Rosen"...works well for me...
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:14 AM, wrote:
> sure it does, but do we really need to tell everyone we pass what place you are in to make a pass, what is wrong with on your left or on your right, that's all I am saying....
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Justin Cox
> To: obra
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.
>
> From: "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
> To: mike.murray@obra.org
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20 when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place coming through : )
>
>
>
>
> .----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
> Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
>
> > I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > Sent via BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> > To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>
> --
> Matthew Lasala
>
> Start slow...then taper
>
> www.lasalaimages.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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rondot@spiritone.com

Trust me I have been passed many times by "leaders". Most of the time they
do just say "on your left or right", but I have had them mention the
"leader" word as well. I think most all of us respect the race these
leaders might be having with each other and do what we can to hold a line or
move some for them.
But remember we are made up of "all kinds" so the odd stuff happens.
That said...........
If these Juniors had a designated race time slot at every cross venue, 1)
this would have been dealt with more as a teachable moment for the young
people instead of what comes up often about Juniors mixing it up with
adults. 2) Dedicated people working to make the Junior and HS Series
competition function well for the future of the sport (as well as kids
racing now) would be able to spend more time and resources on "the kids"
than trying to get them a special time slot to race.
I am not saying Promoters are not stepping up to give them the slot (more
are seeing it works just fine....change can be tough), but from what I have
seen............It really has such a small impact on other races that it
just makes sense for it to be integrated into each day of racing. Then the
conflicts would be between the slow / fast kids....not adults and kids.
Of course there will always be people who think that giving them their own
time slot will make us adults LOSE something. I believe we gain more than
we lose by giving them their own race!
ronald h. strasser...........old fart

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Murray
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Cc: remailer, OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the
pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so
what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

_______________________________________________
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Tim Schauer

First,
I agree with Mike Murray on his posts.

Second,
Trevor and I debated this whole issue at length before he sent the issue.
Warning, be fully aware of your offspring's potentially superior debate
skills before you entertain a debate with them...they may have "Cat'd Up" in
that discipline without you being fully aware! On your left Dad!

Third,
I think the primary here issue is what level of respect each of us have to
the sport which is demonstrated when are aware that you are impeding an
overtaking rider (from your field or not frankly). I see three potential
postures one can take when you are aware holding someone else up. First and
most generous is to move over, even waive them by. Second is to hold your
position and let them pass when they feel they can. Third is to resist. This
can take various forms such as...a verbal refusal to yield, taking or
staying on the preferred fast line when there is room to accommodate a pass,
or even yes, defensively blocking by moving right when they say "on your
right." I would offer that one respect's our sport most by "opening the
door" generously to the faster rider, and the respect level drops
significantly from there with each progressively less generous posture. Now,
having said that I don't think this is universally applied throughout the
race, in the first and last couple of minutes of a cross race a little
generosity can have a big impact on your result and we shouldn't expect to
get much generosity at these crucial moments. As I have raced with the
Master A men in CX the last couple of years, I get lapped almost every week
by the top A men and women. And what I have found is that these people are
the most polite and encouraging racers I've ever had the pleasure (?) of
being lapped by. And arguable these people have the most to race for in
terms of prize money and sponsor representation. We could all follow their
lead, in fact I've probably learned more trying to follow these faster
riders for 30 seconds (after letting them pass) than I learned the first 10
years! So my suggestion is you'll likely get better if you do let faster
riders pass you so you can follow them and learn something...

Now all that being said.......(if you are not tired of reading yet...)

Lastly,
The aggressive defense of one's position at the back of one's category is
not isolated to CX. The same thing can be seen at the back of the lower
levels or road racing at PIR in those 100 rider fields. People refusing to
let others into the pack or fighting for a wheel while in 50th place is just
unnecessary and risky. Sprinting at over 30 mph to move up from 40th to 20th
while others are fading from 20th is not only risky, but pointless. I have
found that this is most common at the lower category levels
and/or among those who haven't been racing as long and take every place too
seriously. I say this because as I have moved up in categories you just
don't see it. It's rare. It is almost unheard-of at the upper levels in cx
or road or mtb where slower riders could refuse to yield or frankly faster
riders demanding slower riders get out of the way for them. Maybe in the
lower cats with less experience many racers still think they are bulletproof
or still think they can win it all someday and need to everyone lay down so
they can win a cat 4 or Cat C race. Most of the rest of us have long figured
out that we are not going to be the top guys and that there is no difference
between 25th and 50th. We do it for the personal challenge, to earn and
retain the respect of those racing around us, and of course for
the occasional great day result.

Cheers,

-Tim Schauer

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:02 AM, Justin Cox wrote:

> Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
> *To:* mike.murray@obra.org
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20
> when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place
> coming through : )
>
>
>
>
> .----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
> Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
>
> > I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of
> the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th,
> so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
> significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
> the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > Sent via BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> > To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>

sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com

you forgot Bryan Smith, he takes up alot of space : ) ...hah, I can say that cuz he races for HV....
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Lasala
To: sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com
Cc: Justin Cox ; obra
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:23 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

As I try to pass what few people I can, I usually say "Clydesdale, 207 pounds, passing on your right, left and in the middle (since the courses now are so narrow for us big guys) and my main nemeses are Aaron Coker, David Taylor, Joe Larson, Shane Gibson and David Rosen"...works well for me...

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:14 AM, wrote:

sure it does, but do we really need to tell everyone we pass what place you are in to make a pass, what is wrong with on your left or on your right, that's all I am saying....

----- Original Message -----
From: Justin Cox
To: obra
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20 when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place coming through : )

.----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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--

Matthew Lasala

Start slow...then taper

www.lasalaimages.com

Dan Grabski

Don't forget to give them your astrological sign during the Blind Date
races. First impressions are everything you know.

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 11, 2011, at 10:24, Matthew Lasala wrote:

As I try to pass what few people I can, I usually say "Clydesdale, 207
pounds, passing on your right, left and in the middle (since the courses now
are so narrow for us big guys) and my main nemeses are Aaron Coker, David
Taylor, Joe Larson, Shane Gibson and David Rosen"...works well for me...

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:14 AM, wrote:

> **
> sure it does, but do we really need to tell everyone we pass what place you
> are in to make a pass, what is wrong with on your left or on your right,
> that's all I am saying....
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Justin Cox
> *To:* obra
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:02 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
> *To:* mike.murray@obra.org
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20
> when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place
> coming through : )
>
>
>
>
> .----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
> Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
>
> > I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of
> the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th,
> so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
> significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
> the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > Sent via BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> > To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
*Matthew Lasala
*
*Start slow...then taper *
**
*www.lasalaimages.com *

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Matthew Lasala

As I try to pass what few people I can, I usually say "Clydesdale, 207
pounds, passing on your right, left and in the middle (since the courses now
are so narrow for us big guys) and my main nemeses are Aaron Coker, David
Taylor, Joe Larson, Shane Gibson and David Rosen"...works well for me...

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 10:14 AM, wrote:

> **
> sure it does, but do we really need to tell everyone we pass what place you
> are in to make a pass, what is wrong with on your left or on your right,
> that's all I am saying....
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> *From:* Justin Cox
> *To:* obra
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:02 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
> *To:* mike.murray@obra.org
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20
> when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place
> coming through : )
>
>
>
>
> .----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
> Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
>
> > I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of
> the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th,
> so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
> significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
> the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
> >
> > Mike Murray
> > Sent via BlackBerry
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> > To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> > Cc:
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--
*Matthew Lasala
*
*Start slow...then taper *
**
*www.lasalaimages.com *

sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com

sure it does, but do we really need to tell everyone we pass what place you are in to make a pass, what is wrong with on your left or on your right, that's all I am saying....

----- Original Message -----
From: Justin Cox
To: obra
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20 when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place coming through : )

.----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
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Justin Cox

Every place matters if you follow your points on crossresults.com.

________________________________
From: "sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com"
To: mike.murray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20 when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place coming through : )

.----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
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sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com

ya but you could make that point all the way down through the top 15 or 20
when it comes to points, does that mean you should yell out 10th place
coming through : )

.----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Murray"
Cc: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

>I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the
>pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so
>what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
>significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
>the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jonathan Vinson

It also tells you what lap you're on. If you have 2 to go, but get passed
by the leader, you're now on your bell lap. Not that this has ever happened
to me, of course.

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

> I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the
> pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so
> what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some
> significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is
> the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
> To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

I think it does matter if you are a leader or if you are mid to back of the pack. If you get delayed behind someone and finish 55th instead of 50th, so what. If you are delayed and you finish 2nd instead of 1st there is some significance. Admittedly not much, as it is just bike racing, but that is the point or racing. Otherwise we are just riding around.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:24:35
To: Thom Schoenborn; EAL
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

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sharkattack97219@peoplepc.com

I totally agree with Thom on the passing and saying on your left or right, I have heard several people in the past few years complaining about leaders yelling out leaders coming through, does it really matter if you are a leader or anyone else trying to pass??? I think that might rub a few people the wrong way sometimes when they are tired and or think that it does not matter if you are a leader or just someone trying to pass, just a friendly on your left or right is all people need to say and I have never had anyone try and block me making a pass....everyone always makes an attempt to make room for a pass when they can.....
just my 2 cents...

--- Original Message -----
From: Thom Schoenborn
To: EAL
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

Let's all just agree on this one point: At least there are no antelopes in Rainier.

http://tumblr.littletinyfish.com/post/11276555873/this-is-why-you-always-wear-a

TS

On Oct 10, 2011, at 12:04 PM, EAL wrote:

As a rider (Masters 60+) who has become way too expert at being passed let me make a few points

1. Given the size of fields and the facts it's a race, people are amazingly courteous. Balancing the incident described by Trevor and Shane, there are literally hundreds of smooth passes under difficult conditions in every race. The bad incidents are just a tiny fraction of the total passes. In this regard, let me note that several Juniors yelled out encouragement to me as they passed me at Rainer. I appreciate that. In fact, I'm always amazed at the number of riders that have some encouraging word during a race.

2. Just a quick "on your left" or "on your right" helps tremendously. You don't have to give a complete bio. Note that if someone is passing most riders will always yield the best line when it's safe to do so, but it helps to know what the passing rider's intentions are.

3. Be a bit patient. Riders will generally attempt to give you room fully within skill capabilities course conditions and safety. I've even gotten off my bike near the end of races to let leaders pass. But it takes a second or two to respond.

Ed

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shane Gibson
To: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

That's Racing. Every single race has multiple categories. Deal with it. Even the Elite Men/Women race with other categories and have to deal with traffic. I get stuffed. I've had occasion to use slower racers to stuff pursuers in my category. It's part of the Cross Crusade series. I've been frustrated as some 50th place hack constantly weaving left and right blocking every single pass attempt that I've called out. The Cross Crusade races are big fields, you have to learn to play nice with other people - sucks, I know... If you don't like it - quit racing there and go race the smaller race venues. There are some great venues and races out there that don't have fields as big as the Cross Crusade series. Yeah, the competition may not be as deep, but the venues rock, the courses rock, and the passion of the people that put them on and the racers that attend are just as genuine.

Picking your lines strategically around other racers, waiting patiently until you can make a move, and getting stuffed are part of it. Otherwise go find some other form of cycle racing where it's pure head-to-head performance.

I witnessed the JRs screaming at the Oldies too - and frankly thought it was borderline aggressive/rude and completely uncalled for - Parents, you should be ashamed if these were your kids. Both instances I witnessed the JR screaming "JR Race Leader - MOVE OUT OF MY WAY". Sorry bud - but if you're overtaking, it's your responsibility to move around traffic in front of you. Just like the Oldies should also hold their line and ride as predictably as possible when being overtaken. I know it's not always possible. But a gentle "On your left/right" should be all it takes. If you're passing - it's your responsibility to pass quickly and safely. Personally I don't give a HOOT if your the leader in your category or 75th place in your category ... if you're passing me, I expect both of us to behave as appropriately as possible in the situation.

Trevor - I am very sorry you got tangled up and hurt - that totally sucks, and I've been there before. But learning patience is an important part of this sport. I hope you heal quickly and are back out on the course soon; your passion for the sport is definitely welcome, and we're looking forward to your racing prowess and skill on the course as you mature. These are big fields and it's completely unreasonable to expect to have the entire race course to your category alone. Best of luck ...

~~shane

--
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:53 AM, stephan roberts wrote:

I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now decided by how many lappers from other classes 1st place could put between him and 2nd instead of competing amungst themselves. My coach races with the master 50+ category and they are having the same discrepencies. So you can always say "thats racing" but in reality the person your suppose to be racing is up the road and your behind a wall of masters/juniors and have no safe way by. This takes the fun out of racing pretty fast for everyone with people stuffing others in the corners and people tired of getting stuffed in corners. However John Wilson's Highschool race format works pretty well...

From: dacrizzow
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr. repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you, don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes. maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
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dacrizzow

my, but i sure am getting some nasty emails today loaded with lots of exclamation points. can we just keep some of that stuff on the board so my phone doesn't keep blowing up w/ e-mail alerts? i know we all have opinions here but i'm not an official nor the originator of this thread. i am however enjoying the differing views on the subject. i've already shared what i saw and my opinion of a joke/ opinion so i'm out. enjoy the rest of you "discover a country day"-the infamous Dacrizzow

dacrizzow

this thread seems to come up every "crusade season." 200 riders on a 1.9mi. course seems to promote this. one guy says, 'get out of my way'. another guy says, 'go around.' some other guy says, 'slow rider is a shmuck if he doesn't get out of way.' -i used to race in the Mstr C class and it was nothing BUT a bunch of guys of all different speeds, sizes, skills, etc. and we constantly ran over each other. most of the time we helped each other up, laughed it off and got back in there. i still talk to some of these guys every week during CX season. i mean we ARE still talking about racing a bicycle race, right? god forbid, you come in 2nd. or 3rd! maybe we should start the jrs with the A's and the masters with the beginners.

reginald@maxmusclepdx.com

Shane,

Well said my friend.

Reginald

Quoting Shane Gibson :

> That's Racing. Every single race has multiple categories. Deal with it.
> Even the Elite Men/Women race with other categories and have to deal with
> traffic. I get stuffed. I've had occasion to use slower racers to stuff
> pursuers in my category. It's part of the Cross Crusade series. I've been
> frustrated as some 50th place hack constantly weaving left and right
> blocking every single pass attempt that I've called out. The Cross Crusade
> races are big fields, you have to learn to play nice with other people -
> sucks, I know... If you don't like it - quit racing there and go race the
> smaller race venues. There are some great venues and races out there that
> don't have fields as big as the Cross Crusade series. Yeah, the
> competition may not be as deep, but the venues rock, the courses rock, and
> the passion of the people that put them on and the racers that attend are
> just as genuine.
>
> Picking your lines strategically around other racers, waiting patiently
> until you can make a move, and getting stuffed are part of it. Otherwise go
> find some other form of cycle racing where it's pure head-to-head
> performance.
>
> I witnessed the JRs screaming at the Oldies too - and frankly thought it was
> borderline aggressive/rude and completely uncalled for - Parents, you should
> be ashamed if these were your kids. Both instances I witnessed the JR
> screaming "JR Race Leader - MOVE OUT OF MY WAY". Sorry bud - but if you're
> overtaking, it's your responsibility to move around traffic in front of you.
> Just like the Oldies should also hold their line and ride as predictably
> as possible when being overtaken. I know it's not always possible. But a
> gentle "On your left/right" should be all it takes. If you're passing -
> it's your responsibility to pass quickly and safely. Personally I don't
> give a HOOT if your the leader in your category or 75th place in your
> category ... if you're passing me, I expect both of us to behave as
> appropriately as possible in the situation.
>
> *Trevor - I am very sorry you got tangled up and hurt* - that totally sucks,
> and I've been there before. But learning patience is an important part of
> this sport. I hope you heal quickly and are back out on the course soon;
> your passion for the sport is definitely welcome, and we're looking forward
> to your racing prowess and skill on the course as you mature. These are big
> fields and it's completely unreasonable to expect to have the entire race
> course to your category alone. Best of luck ...
>
> ~~shane
>
> --
> "Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:53 AM, stephan roberts
> wrote:
>
>> I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now
>> decided by how many lappers from other classes 1st place could put between
>> him and 2nd instead of competing amungst themselves. My coach races with the
>> master 50+ category and they are having the same discrepencies. So you can
>> always say "thats racing" but in reality the person your suppose to be
>> racing is up the road and your behind a wall of masters/juniors and have no
>> safe way by. This takes the fun out of racing pretty fast for everyone with
>> people stuffing others in the corners and people tired of getting stuffed in
>> corners. However John Wilson's Highschool race format works pretty well...
>>
>> *From:* dacrizzow
>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2011 10:09 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>>
>> i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was
>> witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one
>> side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr.
>> repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another
>> section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same
>> jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you,
>> don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to
>> believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this
>> behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line
>> this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is
>> sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes.
>> maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online
>> about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>

Reginald Lee
Certified Fitness Nutrition Coach

Max Muscle Sports Nutrition
7684 SW Nyberg Street
Tualatin, OR 97062
503 612-0001
503 807-5652(c)

"No more off season"

rondot@spiritone.com

Trevor,
I was right behind you when this happened Trevor. You might have heard me tell you after “we” got around this mini cluster....to “ride even and strong”....probably not as you were starting to pull away from me.
The area where it happened was the narrow place heading South toward pits. I am not saying it was not a place to pass riders....I passed riders there, but only when it was VERY OBVIOUS I could do it very quickly and efficiently. I know you are capable of the same bike handling skills and could pass there. BUT I also followed people through the same section when it was just too sketchy to try because of number of riders.
I do not think you or the master really made mistakes, but so many things come into play in these situations in tight places (that whole stretch except at the far end where it turned left and opened up was really pretty tight, especially when the track is also slippery. I found myself sliding around in there some when riding through alone!
This master (I did not even look at his number) and you both were hot with each other, but for you just getting back up and going was the right thing to do! It is best when these things happen to treat it like your front wheel slipped out and you went down.....recover and go! I was impressed how you did not let that melt you down. I do not know if the guy was hardly alive because of poor fitness, pretty new to cross or just someone who is so intense about competition, that he struggles with every person who passes him or even confused for some reason at the time...but that is his issue.
Your call out was appropriate....as I heard you. If he does not respond as you would expect a rider with experience to respond then expect the unexpected! This is where the patience others have mentioned comes into play!
I mention patience because even though I was chasing Don Leet at the time and still close, I chose to not try to pass in that section that time through until your incident in front of me required both of us to get past these folks. My reason for patience there was because of the amount of traffic and my lack of knowledge about how well they were getting through that section. I was in a hold position mode until it opened up.
I know it is hard to not want to charge ahead and catch your competition, but there are times when just a few seconds of patience will prevent a crash like this taking place. You and I both had the power and fitness to blow this guy out of the water and did even though you were injured.
Trevor. I am impressed with how you thought out your post and your overall positive attitude regarding this event...even though it hurt you in several ways.
I want to believe that he had no intention of causing you and or anyone to crash, or probably try to block anyone. He probably was just at his limit and trying to survive in his world. If you think about it....he did not want to crash. Yes M. Murray is right.....the fodder should hold a line so leaders can get through, but “life” and “should” are not always perfect. Think about passing on single-track in an XC race. It can be interesting depending on ability of who you are passing.....then multiply that times 100 to match the “intensity” of a short cyclocross race!
As has been mentioned already, we all know that if you can get other riders between you and those pursuing you, that is at times a huge plus. In these races with combined fields, this will always happen. Honestly, you could probably even post here some encounters (maybe not quite so extreme) you have had in the Jr. Cross Series, when you were passing slower junior riders (no adults on the course). This is part of cyclocross in Oregon where we want to have people get to race and not be pulled off the course because they are slow. I do think Juniors getting the course to themselves is good, but I also enjoy encouraging them when racing alongside.
You are a fine young man, making good decisions. You have already learned from this experience and will be a better racer and person. I would tell you to hang in there, but know that is not needed with your outlook and support from your family.
ron

From: EAL
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 12:04 PM
To: Shane Gibson ; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

As a rider (Masters 60+) who has become way too expert at being passed let me make a few points

1. Given the size of fields and the facts it's a race, people are amazingly courteous. Balancing the incident described by Trevor and Shane, there are literally hundreds of smooth passes under difficult conditions in every race. The bad incidents are just a tiny fraction of the total passes. In this regard, let me note that several Juniors yelled out encouragement to me as they passed me at Rainer. I appreciate that. In fact, I'm always amazed at the number of riders that have some encouraging word during a race.

2. Just a quick "on your left" or "on your right" helps tremendously. You don't have to give a complete bio. Note that if someone is passing most riders will always yield the best line when it's safe to do so, but it helps to know what the passing rider's intentions are.

3. Be a bit patient. Riders will generally attempt to give you room fully within skill capabilities course conditions and safety. I've even gotten off my bike near the end of races to let leaders pass. But it takes a second or two to respond.

Ed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Shane Gibson
To: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

That's Racing. Every single race has multiple categories. Deal with it. Even the Elite Men/Women race with other categories and have to deal with traffic. I get stuffed. I've had occasion to use slower racers to stuff pursuers in my category. It's part of the Cross Crusade series. I've been frustrated as some 50th place hack constantly weaving left and right blocking every single pass attempt that I've called out. The Cross Crusade races are big fields, you have to learn to play nice with other people - sucks, I know... If you don't like it - quit racing there and go race the smaller race venues. There are some great venues and races out there that don't have fields as big as the Cross Crusade series. Yeah, the competition may not be as deep, but the venues rock, the courses rock, and the passion of the people that put them on and the racers that attend are just as genuine.

Picking your lines strategically around other racers, waiting patiently until you can make a move, and getting stuffed are part of it. Otherwise go find some other form of cycle racing where it's pure head-to-head performance.

I witnessed the JRs screaming at the Oldies too - and frankly thought it was borderline aggressive/rude and completely uncalled for - Parents, you should be ashamed if these were your kids. Both instances I witnessed the JR screaming "JR Race Leader - MOVE OUT OF MY WAY". Sorry bud - but if you're overtaking, it's your responsibility to move around traffic in front of you. Just like the Oldies should also hold their line and ride as predictably as possible when being overtaken. I know it's not always possible. But a gentle "On your left/right" should be all it takes. If you're passing - it's your responsibility to pass quickly and safely. Personally I don't give a HOOT if your the leader in your category or 75th place in your category ... if you're passing me, I expect both of us to behave as appropriately as possible in the situation.

Trevor - I am very sorry you got tangled up and hurt - that totally sucks, and I've been there before. But learning patience is an important part of this sport. I hope you heal quickly and are back out on the course soon; your passion for the sport is definitely welcome, and we're looking forward to your racing prowess and skill on the course as you mature. These are big fields and it's completely unreasonable to expect to have the entire race course to your category alone. Best of luck ...

~~shane

--
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:53 AM, stephan roberts wrote:

I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now decided by how many lappers from other classes 1st place could put between him and 2nd instead of competing amungst themselves. My coach races with the master 50+ category and they are having the same discrepencies. So you can always say "thats racing" but in reality the person your suppose to be racing is up the road and your behind a wall of masters/juniors and have no safe way by. This takes the fun out of racing pretty fast for everyone with people stuffing others in the corners and people tired of getting stuffed in corners. However John Wilson's Highschool race format works pretty well...

From: dacrizzow
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr. repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you, don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes. maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
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Thom Schoenborn

Let's all just agree on this one point: At least there are no antelopes in Rainier.

http://tumblr.littletinyfish.com/post/11276555873/this-is-why-you-always-wear-a

TS

On Oct 10, 2011, at 12:04 PM, EAL wrote:

> As a rider (Masters 60+) who has become way too expert at being passed let me make a few points
>
> 1. Given the size of fields and the facts it's a race, people are amazingly courteous. Balancing the incident described by Trevor and Shane, there are literally hundreds of smooth passes under difficult conditions in every race. The bad incidents are just a tiny fraction of the total passes. In this regard, let me note that several Juniors yelled out encouragement to me as they passed me at Rainer. I appreciate that. In fact, I'm always amazed at the number of riders that have some encouraging word during a race.
>
> 2. Just a quick "on your left" or "on your right" helps tremendously. You don't have to give a complete bio. Note that if someone is passing most riders will always yield the best line when it's safe to do so, but it helps to know what the passing rider's intentions are.
>
> 3. Be a bit patient. Riders will generally attempt to give you room fully within skill capabilities course conditions and safety. I've even gotten off my bike near the end of races to let leaders pass. But it takes a second or two to respond.
>
> Ed
>
> From: Shane Gibson
> To: "obra@list.obra.org"
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
>
> That's Racing. Every single race has multiple categories. Deal with it. Even the Elite Men/Women race with other categories and have to deal with traffic. I get stuffed. I've had occasion to use slower racers to stuff pursuers in my category. It's part of the Cross Crusade series. I've been frustrated as some 50th place hack constantly weaving left and right blocking every single pass attempt that I've called out. The Cross Crusade races are big fields, you have to learn to play nice with other people - sucks, I know... If you don't like it - quit racing there and go race the smaller race venues. There are some great venues and races out there that don't have fields as big as the Cross Crusade series. Yeah, the competition may not be as deep, but the venues rock, the courses rock, and the passion of the people that put them on and the racers that attend are just as genuine.
>
> Picking your lines strategically around other racers, waiting patiently until you can make a move, and getting stuffed are part of it. Otherwise go find some other form of cycle racing where it's pure head-to-head performance.
>
> I witnessed the JRs screaming at the Oldies too - and frankly thought it was borderline aggressive/rude and completely uncalled for - Parents, you should be ashamed if these were your kids. Both instances I witnessed the JR screaming "JR Race Leader - MOVE OUT OF MY WAY". Sorry bud - but if you're overtaking, it's your responsibility to move around traffic in front of you. Just like the Oldies should also hold their line and ride as predictably as possible when being overtaken. I know it's not always possible. But a gentle "On your left/right" should be all it takes. If you're passing - it's your responsibility to pass quickly and safely. Personally I don't give a HOOT if your the leader in your category or 75th place in your category ... if you're passing me, I expect both of us to behave as appropriately as possible in the situation.
>
> Trevor - I am very sorry you got tangled up and hurt - that totally sucks, and I've been there before. But learning patience is an important part of this sport. I hope you heal quickly and are back out on the course soon; your passion for the sport is definitely welcome, and we're looking forward to your racing prowess and skill on the course as you mature. These are big fields and it's completely unreasonable to expect to have the entire race course to your category alone. Best of luck ...
>
> ~~shane
>
> --
> "Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:53 AM, stephan roberts wrote:
> I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now decided by how many lappers from other classes 1st place could put between him and 2nd instead of competing amungst themselves. My coach races with the master 50+ category and they are having the same discrepencies. So you can always say "thats racing" but in reality the person your suppose to be racing is up the road and your behind a wall of masters/juniors and have no safe way by. This takes the fun out of racing pretty fast for everyone with people stuffing others in the corners and people tired of getting stuffed in corners. However John Wilson's Highschool race format works pretty well...
>
> From: dacrizzow
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr. repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you, don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes. maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
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EAL

As a rider (Masters 60+) who has become way too expert at being passed let me make a few points

1.

Mike Murray

I think at best you can only say you didn't see anyone blocking, not that "no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone". Personally I think that if a leader from a race that started behind you is coming up on you then you should not only not block them but you should actively try to get out of their way. They are clearly moving faster than you. The consequences for the passing rider is clearly greater than they are for the rider being passed. This doesn't mean that people get to run into people in front of them but if someone identifies themselves as a race leader form a race behind you and you don't get out of the way you are being a bit of a schmuck.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: dacrizzow
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:09:51
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr. repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you, don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes. maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
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Trevor Schauer

To make a clarification on my first email-When I told the older rider I
would be passing on his right, and then started moving quickly past, he
attempted to pass ANOTHER master on their right as I was coming around him.
He didn't seem to have any problems handling his bike. Yes it was somewhat
narrow, but there would have been no problem otherwise. This seems to be a
point of confusion for many as they tell me that the master must have lost
control in a slippery narrow section and crashed into me; however, this is
not quite what happened. Regardless.

I am NOT trying to assert that the Master intentionally took me out because
I was trying to pass him. I am also NOT saying that the Masters should move
out of their way for younger, faster riders simply because they aren't going
as fast. Everyone is certainly entitled to their place on the course and to
their own race to the best of their ability. I AM saying that when getting
passed by leaders (or anyone) from a different field, one should do their
best to interfere with the other racers as little as possible; often times,
this just means holding one's line for a few seconds as passing occurs. I
don't mind having a giant field of traffic in front of me to weave through,
even when it does mean some considerable slowing; I do mind when I let
someone know that I'm passing and they blatantly disregard this.

Thanks, Trevor Schauer

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Thom Schoenborn
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 11:33 AM
To: stephan roberts
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; dacrizzow
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

As the riders hit the barriers for the last time, Powers had forced a small
gap and elected to run and not take any chances.

"I didn't have any blood in my hands, and I had a gap. I have jumped the
barriers in that position just because in the past, and it has turned out to
not be the right decision. I played it safe," explained Powers.

http://www.cxmagazine.com/powers-wins-usgp-fort-collins-day-2-2011

Pro riders talk all the time about "managing risk." Based on Trevor's
description, that area where the accident happened was a risky place to
pass. There's like 3 feet of rideable area there. People crashed just from
losing traction, and it was slightly off-camber. I doubt there was any
ill-intent.

The beauty of cyclocross, to fat guy like me anyway, is that the hardest,
fittest, most daring rider can still end up in 10th because they're unlucky
or they chose a risky place to make up ground. Undoubtedly, us old fat guys
could learn a little something from the derring-do of the teenagers, and the
teens might learn a little from our patience and prudence (but will they?
Did we as teenagers ever listen to someone preaching patience and prudence?
HA!).

Heal quickly, young man. And be glad you didn't break the master's hip. ;-)

TS

On Oct 10, 2011, at 10:53 AM, stephan roberts wrote:

I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now
decided by how many lappers from other classes 1st place could put between
him and 2nd instead of competing amungst themselves. My coach races with the
master 50+ category and they are having the same discrepencies. So you can
always say "thats racing" but in reality the person your suppose to be
racing is up the road and your behind a wall of masters/juniors and have no
safe way by. This takes the fun out of racing pretty fast for everyone with
people stuffing others in the corners and people tired of getting stuffed in
corners. However John Wilson's Highschool race format works pretty well...

From: dacrizzow < dacrizzow@gmail.com>
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors

i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was witness
to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one side to
it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr. repeatedly
yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another section
while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same jr. kept
yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you, don't
care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to
believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this
behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line
this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is
sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes.
maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online
about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
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Thom Schoenborn

As the riders hit the barriers for the last time, Powers had forced a small gap and elected to run and not take any chances.

Shane Gibson

That's Racing. Every single race has multiple categories. Deal with it.
Even the Elite Men/Women race with other categories and have to deal with
traffic. I get stuffed. I've had occasion to use slower racers to stuff
pursuers in my category. It's part of the Cross Crusade series. I've been
frustrated as some 50th place hack constantly weaving left and right
blocking every single pass attempt that I've called out. The Cross Crusade
races are big fields, you have to learn to play nice with other people -
sucks, I know... If you don't like it - quit racing there and go race the
smaller race venues. There are some great venues and races out there that
don't have fields as big as the Cross Crusade series. Yeah, the
competition may not be as deep, but the venues rock, the courses rock, and
the passion of the people that put them on and the racers that attend are
just as genuine.

Picking your lines strategically around other racers, waiting patiently
until you can make a move, and getting stuffed are part of it. Otherwise go
find some other form of cycle racing where it's pure head-to-head
performance.

I witnessed the JRs screaming at the Oldies too - and frankly thought it was
borderline aggressive/rude and completely uncalled for - Parents, you should
be ashamed if these were your kids. Both instances I witnessed the JR
screaming "JR Race Leader - MOVE OUT OF MY WAY". Sorry bud - but if you're
overtaking, it's your responsibility to move around traffic in front of you.
Just like the Oldies should also hold their line and ride as predictably
as possible when being overtaken. I know it's not always possible. But a
gentle "On your left/right" should be all it takes. If you're passing -
it's your responsibility to pass quickly and safely. Personally I don't
give a HOOT if your the leader in your category or 75th place in your
category ... if you're passing me, I expect both of us to behave as
appropriately as possible in the situation.

*Trevor - I am very sorry you got tangled up and hurt* - that totally sucks,
and I've been there before. But learning patience is an important part of
this sport. I hope you heal quickly and are back out on the course soon;
your passion for the sport is definitely welcome, and we're looking forward
to your racing prowess and skill on the course as you mature. These are big
fields and it's completely unreasonable to expect to have the entire race
course to your category alone. Best of luck ...

~~shane

--
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:53 AM, stephan roberts
wrote:

> I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now
> decided by how many lappers from other classes 1st place could put between
> him and 2nd instead of competing amungst themselves. My coach races with the
> master 50+ category and they are having the same discrepencies. So you can
> always say "thats racing" but in reality the person your suppose to be
> racing is up the road and your behind a wall of masters/juniors and have no
> safe way by. This takes the fun out of racing pretty fast for everyone with
> people stuffing others in the corners and people tired of getting stuffed in
> corners. However John Wilson's Highschool race format works pretty well...
>
> *From:* dacrizzow
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2011 10:09 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Of Masters and Juniors
>
> i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was
> witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one
> side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr.
> repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another
> section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same
> jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you,
> don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to
> believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this
> behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line
> this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is
> sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes.
> maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online
> about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
>

stephan roberts

I completely understand where Trevor is coming from. Junior races are now decided by how many lappers from other classes

dacrizzow

i'm not going to get into a whole thread of arguments here but i was witness to some of this stuff happening out there and there's more than one side to it. i saw a master down and another stopped behind while a jr. repeatedly yelled for them to move because he was the "leader." in another section while a couple of Mstrs were sliding around in the slime, the same jr. kept yelling at them to choose their line. i don't know if this was you, don't care but no one is intentionally "blocking" anyone. i find it hard to believe any of these kids parents wouldn't be embarrassed over this behavior. we ALL have to navigate around falling or slower riders. the line this said jr wanted to take simply wasn't available. that's how it is sometimes. find a different line. works like that in life too sometimes. maybe you should bring this up with a parent instead of complaining online about old slow guys. good luck with the rest of your season.

Trevor Schauer

I think something needs to be said about this.
The Master B's, 50+, and Junior Men is a crowded race. However, this is not
about who should start first, or why it's a crowded field. It's about being
considerate to riders in other fields. I, and several other juniors, begin
catching Masters in the first couple of minutes, and typically pass with
calls similar to, "Junior leader(s) on your left/right." Most are
considerate and hold their line such that there is still sufficient room to
pass, thereby not affecting anyone's race. However, there are those that
don't. I understand that nobody likes getting passed. We all have our pride
out there on the course and don't want our own races affected by riders from
other categories. However, some have the nerve to actually get aggressive
with juniors and either not allow them to pass, or actually fight with them
for position. Here's my story:

Today I got into a 2-man attack at the very beginning of the race. We began
catching the first Masters early and smoothly until the narrow straightaway
leading to Pit 1; we were passing on some admittedly already narrow
territory. Both my competitor and I said "Junior leaders on your left" to
one of the Master's, who moved little, if at all. My opponent got by, and
as I attempted to do the same, the older man bumped into me, cutting me off.
I shouted a little bit and said "I'm still here on your left!" He gave no
response as I watched my competitor slowly slip away. I decided to move the
other way, and told him, very clearly, I'd be coming around on his right
instead. As I moved past him, he moved in front of me, tangling our
equipment, and sending us both off the course. On the way down, his back
tire scraped my jaw, causing immediate swelling, and I landed with my leg on
top of his chain ring. At that point, I admittedly got mad, shouting at him
what did he think he was doing and that he just took out one of the two
leaders, at the back of his pack. He dismissively told me to 'not be so
aggressive.'

After the race, I had to go to the hospital and have 22 stitches put in my
leg, and will miss an entire week of training and possibly next weekend's
racing.

I understand that there is no written rule that one has to move over for a
passing rider from another field, but I feel that it is rude, aggressive,
simply shows no respect for other riders when instances like this happen.
If the leaders from a different category are passing you, it is acceptable
to hold your line if there's still room to pass, or safely move. It is NOT
ok to knowingly block other riders or get in the way of a different race.
Many of us are faster than you. I wasn't asking you to move out of your
way, I was simply informing you that I would be passing and yet you still
moved right into me, with complete disregard for the race at hand. My point
is, if you are at the back of your own field and are getting passed by
leaders (or anyone) from another category, the only thing to do is let them
by, as long as you yourself are not endangered, because otherwise, accidents
WILL happen.

See you all in two weeks!

Trevor Schauer