Chris Cortez

This sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I think I'll head out
there tomorrow. My fitness has been coming around a little from racing
the "pre-season", but the rain has amplified my cluelessness. Rainier
was proof positive that I badly need practice driving in mud and
experimenting with tire pressure and tread.

On Oct 10, 2011, at 5:36 PM, Greg O'Brien wrote:

> In Portland, try the "Gateway Green" area, adjacent to the I205 bike
> path, just North of Gateway transit center. There's a rough course
> layed out, with pink and yellow ribbon. Some excellent off camber
> practice, jumps, mini sand pit, short steep drops and run-ups, a
> tough climb (harder than the Rainier gravel one).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Cortez
> Sent: Oct 10, 2011 5:13 PM
> To: Ryan Seward
> Cc: obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for 'cross (from all of you!)
>
> Some really good stuff in here - thanks for sharing.
>
> I've been wondering about one of these: "train in worse conditions
> than you will race in"
>
> Is there a practice cross course anywhere? Or just a muddy, rutted
> hillside with some trees on it, where I won't be jailed or shot for
> thrashing about on a cross bike? Where do you folks go to practice
> getting muddy?
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 10, 2011, at 9:56 AM, Ryan Seward wrote:
>
>> So far I've gotten some pretty awesome responses, and I figure I
>> would share with those out there. Most are probably obvious to you
>> all, but it's worth hearing again. Maybe it was that 35 psi I was
>> running... ;)
>>
>> Try pushing the bike so it's more perpendicular to the hillside.
>> That's how you do it on the off-camber stuff. Also, come in high
>> (up hill) so you can drift down if you need to.
>>
>> Lower pressure (30-32 psi) good mud tread. Smooth even pedal
>> stroke, no mashing or hard pedal accelerations, avoid leaning the
>> bike. Practice taking 180 degree turns in wet grass or mud around
>> trees or something similar. Make the 180 turns progressively
>> tighter and tighter. Then increase your speed. Try not leaning the
>> bike, try pedaling in the turns. You can even try keeping the bike
>> vertical and hanging the inside leg off the pedal like an outrigger
>> ready to dab if needed. This takes practice, lots of practice. Then
>> eventually try riding off camber slopes and then the above drill on
>> a slope....
>>
>> tune your breaks, train in worse conditions than you will race in
>> (bigger hills, worse roots), and focus on your tires. tread and
>> pressure matter. If you are single speed, gear ratio would make a
>> difference (you need to spin in my opinion).
>>
>> Master A racer here who had a good race (went from #4 number plate
>> position (DFL) to 4th, passing nearly half the younger A field).
>> Here is what I focused on: when it was slick I stay seated and
>> applied power evenly -- I run a 28t rear cassette with a 38t front
>> ring so I can spin when I need to in the sloppy off cambers. The
>> focus was on balancing my weight and riding smoothly. Then when I
>> knew I had traction I had some energy to attack (e.g., the road
>> climb).
>> I ran 25 psi tubulars (Grifos or tufo cubus -- too cheap for the
>> handmade euro stuff) or a quality mud clincher -- the clement pdx,
>> challenge grifo open tubular or schwalbe racing ralph are good
>> examples. Latex tubes by Challenge or if you can make tubeless
>> work ...
>> I run the grifo clinchers at 27 psi on Wednesday nights at
>> Alpenrose with the latex tubes and they hook up great as well.
>> Really, it's a huge difference to have a high tpi supple sidewall
>> and the low pressure. My buddy crashed four times yesterday and
>> after the race he realized his tire pressure was over 30 psi. Last
>> year I flatted and had to run a Shimano pit wheel that had to be at
>> 35 psi and the bike understeered horribly.
>> I developed these opinions watching my buddy Eirik Schultz crush
>> the master A fields the last couple of years and then taking his
>> advice. He's an amazing bike handler (elite super d racer) and all
>> around bad-ass on a bike that's been racing cross since the late
>> '80's.
>>
>> Good tires help. A lot. The Clement Crusade PDX have some really
>> aggressive side lugs. I rode those Wednesday at Blind Date with
>> nary a problem, and that was some seriously sloppy stuff.
>> Lower pressure puts more of your tire tread into the mud, which
>> gives you more grip. Obviously, too low of a pressure with
>> clinchers will lead to a pinch flat. Personally, I'm a cheeseburger
>> away from the Clydesdales, so I never run lower than 50 psi.
>> Equal weighting/balance between front and rear tires. I think Molly
>> taught this at the Cross Clinic, and it's really stuck with me. Not
>> always easy to do, especially when it's off-camber and up or down,
>> but it has helped me a lot. Riding in the drops sometimes helps put
>> more weight on your front wheel, which can keep in on the line
>> you're trying for.
>> Assume you'll make it. Look to the next corner or next obstacle and
>> *steer* there. Turn your handlebars. Do it slow, but turn them
>> where you want to go. Keep pedaling. Assume you'll make it and
>> you'll likely be right. If nothing else, you'll go faster and be
>> that much farther when you crash. ;-)
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Ryan Seward

Well said. I just got back from a little adventure around Corvallis
(btw...anyone care to setup a race or training thingy here? Seems
Salem/Eugene/Portland all have them...why not us?). If any of you are around
Corvallis, I usually mess around Bald Hill for "mountain" rides on the ccx
bike (although I am no mountain biker), and Avery Park for techniques. I
have barriers and a nice little circuit there. Contact me if you want to
mess around out there.

Things I just messed around with after reading some advice people have sent
me.

Weight distribution makes a HUGE difference. I was doing some tighter and
tighter figure eights, and did a loop shifting my weight far back, then far
forward. It's much easier to control a rear wheel spinning out then a front
one with no traction.

I also tried to get myself out of my comfort zone as far as cornering goes.
I tried leaning farther and farther, sometimes with my foot already
disconnected, ready to catch me, sometimes not. It is definitely a thing you
need to do: get comfortable with the uncomfortable.

I think the biggest thing is just repetition and pushing yourself. I
remember doing cross mounts and dismounts forever until I could do them when
I was dog-tired, and at any speed. Baby steps. Do a figure eight slow, then
tighter and tighter a day. The next time, try for speed. Once it's muscle
memory, you're good to go :)

And yes. Have fun (but I would like to do better than M.O.P. at a Crusade
race :)

rondot@spiritone.com

Training is relative in my life and from my perspective. I do think it is very important, but needs to match what you expect to get from racing.
If you need experience with riding / racing on surfaces other than pavement or concrete, then training on those gravel, grass, mud etc. types of surfaces might be what you need to do to gain confidence. On the other hand if you are pretty confident off road, your training time might be better served keeping your fitness level where it needs to be to race hard for an hour. This can be done on a route of your liking that works for you on streets where you live.
The idea of training in worse conditions than you will races is not a bad one, but can be something you cannot totally control............warm dry weather for the the two weeks prior to the first cross race and a rain dump the day before making course a mud pit is an example. I try to train twice a week “no matter” what the weather is like. That does not always work of course because of other life commitments. But......Usually the nasty conditions just show up as we get further into the Fall season. Unless the weather conditions are dangerous out, don’t let that stop you from your training ride..........thus the bad conditions mark just might be met. Race day will be just another day at the office even though the sky is dumping buckets.
I know working on the “trainer” is an important part of many cyclists training programs as it really helps with fitness, but in my opinion only helps with bike handling skills because you have better condition........allowing you to make better decisions on the bike. But you still have hone the riding outside as well.
I say do what the A riders and others who have good success racing cross suggest to you and see what fits in your life the best. If it is good advice, fits your lifestyle and most important is fun, you will do it more often and make improvement for the most part.
Keep it fun. If you lose that, then ask yourself why you are still doing it.
If needing an off road training area..........scour neighborhoods where you live. There are still a few places left where kids still ride their bikes on natural surfaces that have not been paved yet! Use that childlike curiosity and find them!
ron strasser

From: Chris Cortez
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 5:13 PM
To: Ryan Seward
Cc: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tips for 'cross (from all of you!)

Some really good stuff in here - thanks for sharing.

I've been wondering about one of these: "train in worse conditions than you will race in"

Is there a practice cross course anywhere? Or just a muddy, rutted hillside with some trees on it, where I won't be jailed or shot for thrashing about on a cross bike? Where do you folks go to practice getting muddy?

On Oct 10, 2011, at 9:56 AM, Ryan Seward wrote:

So far I've gotten some pretty awesome responses, and I figure I would share with those out there. Most are probably obvious to you all, but it's worth hearing again. Maybe it was that 35 psi I was running... ;)

Try pushing the bike so it's more perpendicular to the hillside. That's how you do it on the off-camber stuff. Also, come in high (up hill) so you can drift down if you need to.

Lower pressure (30-32 psi) good mud tread. Smooth even pedal stroke, no mashing or hard pedal accelerations, avoid leaning the bike. Practice taking 180 degree turns in wet grass or mud around trees or something similar. Make the 180 turns progressively tighter and tighter. Then increase your speed. Try not leaning the bike, try pedaling in the turns. You can even try keeping the bike vertical and hanging the inside leg off the pedal like an outrigger ready to dab if needed. This takes practice, lots of practice. Then eventually try riding off camber slopes and then the above drill on a slope....

tune your breaks, train in worse conditions than you will race in (bigger hills, worse roots), and focus on your tires. tread and pressure matter. If you are single speed, gear ratio would make a difference (you need to spin in my opinion).

Master A racer here who had a good race (went from #4 number plate position (DFL) to 4th, passing nearly half the younger A field). Here is what I focused on: when it was slick I stay seated and applied power evenly -- I run a 28t rear cassette with a 38t front ring so I can spin when I need to in the sloppy off cambers. The focus was on balancing my weight and riding smoothly. Then when I knew I had traction I had some energy to attack (e.g., the road climb).
I ran 25 psi tubulars (Grifos or tufo cubus -- too cheap for the handmade euro stuff) or a quality mud clincher -- the clement pdx, challenge grifo open tubular or schwalbe racing ralph are good examples. Latex tubes by Challenge or if you can make tubeless work ...
I run the grifo clinchers at 27 psi on Wednesday nights at Alpenrose with the latex tubes and they hook up great as well. Really, it's a huge difference to have a high tpi supple sidewall and the low pressure. My buddy crashed four times yesterday and after the race he realized his tire pressure was over 30 psi. Last year I flatted and had to run a Shimano pit wheel that had to be at 35 psi and the bike understeered horribly.
I developed these opinions watching my buddy Eirik Schultz crush the master A fields the last couple of years and then taking his advice. He's an amazing bike handler (elite super d racer) and all around bad-ass on a bike that's been racing cross since the late '80's.

Good tires help. A lot. The Clement Crusade PDX have some really aggressive side lugs. I rode those Wednesday at Blind Date with nary a problem, and that was some seriously sloppy stuff.
Lower pressure puts more of your tire tread into the mud, which gives you more grip. Obviously, too low of a pressure with clinchers will lead to a pinch flat. Personally, I'm a cheeseburger away from the Clydesdales, so I never run lower than 50 psi.
Equal weighting/balance between front and rear tires. I think Molly taught this at the Cross Clinic, and it's really stuck with me. Not always easy to do, especially when it's off-camber and up or down, but it has helped me a lot. Riding in the drops sometimes helps put more weight on your front wheel, which can keep in on the line you're trying for.
Assume you'll make it. Look to the next corner or next obstacle and *steer* there. Turn your handlebars. Do it slow, but turn them where you want to go. Keep pedaling. Assume you'll make it and you'll likely be right. If nothing else, you'll go faster and be that much farther when you crash. ;-)
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris Cortez

Some really good stuff in here - thanks for sharing.

I've been wondering about one of these: "train in worse conditions
than you will race in"

Is there a practice cross course anywhere? Or just a muddy, rutted
hillside with some trees on it, where I won't be jailed or shot for
thrashing about on a cross bike? Where do you folks go to practice
getting muddy?

On Oct 10, 2011, at 9:56 AM, Ryan Seward wrote:

> So far I've gotten some pretty awesome responses, and I figure I
> would share with those out there. Most are probably obvious to you
> all, but it's worth hearing again. Maybe it was that 35 psi I was
> running... ;)
>
> Try pushing the bike so it's more perpendicular to the hillside.
> That's how you do it on the off-camber stuff. Also, come in high
> (up hill) so you can drift down if you need to.
>
> Lower pressure (30-32 psi) good mud tread. Smooth even pedal stroke,
> no mashing or hard pedal accelerations, avoid leaning the bike.
> Practice taking 180 degree turns in wet grass or mud around trees or
> something similar. Make the 180 turns progressively tighter and
> tighter. Then increase your speed. Try not leaning the bike, try
> pedaling in the turns. You can even try keeping the bike vertical
> and hanging the inside leg off the pedal like an outrigger ready to
> dab if needed. This takes practice, lots of practice. Then
> eventually try riding off camber slopes and then the above drill on
> a slope....
>
> tune your breaks, train in worse conditions than you will race in
> (bigger hills, worse roots), and focus on your tires. tread and
> pressure matter. If you are single speed, gear ratio would make a
> difference (you need to spin in my opinion).
>
> Master A racer here who had a good race (went from #4 number plate
> position (DFL) to 4th, passing nearly half the younger A field).
> Here is what I focused on: when it was slick I stay seated and
> applied power evenly -- I run a 28t rear cassette with a 38t front
> ring so I can spin when I need to in the sloppy off cambers. The
> focus was on balancing my weight and riding smoothly. Then when I
> knew I had traction I had some energy to attack (e.g., the road
> climb).
> I ran 25 psi tubulars (Grifos or tufo cubus -- too cheap for the
> handmade euro stuff) or a quality mud clincher -- the clement pdx,
> challenge grifo open tubular or schwalbe racing ralph are good
> examples. Latex tubes by Challenge or if you can make tubeless
> work ...
> I run the grifo clinchers at 27 psi on Wednesday nights at Alpenrose
> with the latex tubes and they hook up great as well. Really, it's a
> huge difference to have a high tpi supple sidewall and the low
> pressure. My buddy crashed four times yesterday and after the race
> he realized his tire pressure was over 30 psi. Last year I flatted
> and had to run a Shimano pit wheel that had to be at 35 psi and the
> bike understeered horribly.
> I developed these opinions watching my buddy Eirik Schultz crush the
> master A fields the last couple of years and then taking his
> advice. He's an amazing bike handler (elite super d racer) and all
> around bad-ass on a bike that's been racing cross since the late
> '80's.
>
> Good tires help. A lot. The Clement Crusade PDX have some really
> aggressive side lugs. I rode those Wednesday at Blind Date with nary
> a problem, and that was some seriously sloppy stuff.
> Lower pressure puts more of your tire tread into the mud, which
> gives you more grip. Obviously, too low of a pressure with clinchers
> will lead to a pinch flat. Personally, I'm a cheeseburger away from
> the Clydesdales, so I never run lower than 50 psi.
> Equal weighting/balance between front and rear tires. I think Molly
> taught this at the Cross Clinic, and it's really stuck with me. Not
> always easy to do, especially when it's off-camber and up or down,
> but it has helped me a lot. Riding in the drops sometimes helps put
> more weight on your front wheel, which can keep in on the line
> you're trying for.
> Assume you'll make it. Look to the next corner or next obstacle and
> *steer* there. Turn your handlebars. Do it slow, but turn them where
> you want to go. Keep pedaling. Assume you'll make it and you'll
> likely be right. If nothing else, you'll go faster and be that much
> farther when you crash. ;-)
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ryan Seward

*So far I've gotten some pretty awesome responses, and I figure I would
share with those out there. Most are probably obvious to you all, but it's
worth hearing again. Maybe it was that 35 psi I was running... ;)*

Try pushing the bike so it's more perpendicular to the hillside. That's how
you do it on the off-camber stuff. Also, come in high (up hill) so you can
drift down if you need to.

Lower pressure (30-32 psi) good mud tread. Smooth even pedal stroke, no
mashing or hard pedal accelerations, avoid leaning the bike. Practice taking
180 degree turns in wet grass or mud around trees or something similar. Make
the 180 turns progressively tighter and tighter. Then increase your speed.
Try not leaning the bike, try pedaling in the turns. You can even try
keeping the bike vertical and hanging the inside leg off the pedal like an
outrigger ready to dab if needed. This takes practice, lots of
practice. Then eventually try riding off camber slopes and then the above
drill on a slope....

tune your breaks, train in worse conditions than you will race in (bigger
hills, worse roots), and focus on your tires. tread and pressure matter. If
you are single speed, gear ratio would make a difference (you need to spin
in my opinion).

Master A racer here who had a good race (went from #4 number plate position
(DFL) to 4th, passing nearly half the younger A field). Here is what I
focused on: when it was slick I stay seated and applied power evenly -- I
run a 28t rear cassette with a 38t front ring so I can spin when I need to
in the sloppy off cambers. The focus was on balancing my weight and riding
smoothly. Then when I knew I had traction I had some energy to attack
(e.g., the road climb).
I ran 25 psi tubulars (Grifos or tufo cubus -- too cheap for the handmade
euro stuff) or a quality mud clincher -- the clement pdx, challenge grifo
open tubular or schwalbe racing ralph are good examples. Latex tubes by
Challenge or if you can make tubeless work ...
I run the grifo clinchers at 27 psi on Wednesday nights at Alpenrose with
the latex tubes and they hook up great as well. Really, it's a huge
difference to have a high tpi supple sidewall and the low pressure. My
buddy crashed four times yesterday and after the race he realized his tire
pressure was over 30 psi. Last year I flatted and had to run a Shimano pit
wheel that had to be at 35 psi and the bike understeered horribly.
I developed these opinions watching my buddy Eirik Schultz crush the master
A fields the last couple of years and then taking his advice. He's an
amazing bike handler (elite super d racer) and all around bad-ass on a bike
that's been racing cross since the late '80's.

Good tires help. A lot. The Clement Crusade PDX have some really aggressive
side lugs. I rode those Wednesday at Blind Date with nary a problem, and
that was some seriously sloppy stuff.
Lower pressure puts more of your tire tread into the mud, which gives you
more grip. Obviously, too low of a pressure with clinchers will lead to a
pinch flat. Personally, I'm a cheeseburger away from the Clydesdales, so I
never run lower than 50 psi.
Equal weighting/balance between front and rear tires. I think Molly taught
this at the Cross Clinic, and it's really stuck with me. Not always easy to
do, especially when it's off-camber and up or down, but it has helped me a
lot. Riding in the drops sometimes helps put more weight on your front
wheel, which can keep in on the line you're trying for.
Assume you'll make it. Look to the next corner or next obstacle and *steer*
there. Turn your handlebars. Do it slow, but turn them where you want to go.
Keep pedaling. Assume you'll make it and you'll likely be right. If nothing
else, you'll go faster and be that much farther when you crash. ;-)