Jr. Girls Division at races

Performance Fitness

2002-11-25



 Junior women is the smallest category so it

is the least likely to be held. The presence of only one girl there tends

to substantiate this. In addition, would it really make any difference if

the one girl was given a category all to herself which she would win

regardless of performance?



Valid point, but what I'm driving at has more to do with validating the

participant by allowing them to compete on a level playing field with their

peers. A 12 year old girl competing with an 18 year old boy (for the most

part) is going to get creamed regardless of performance. Whereas maybe she

earns a medal for simply showing up once or twice, but in the process the

race becomes more inviting to those other Jr. girls (even if there are only

8 out there).



I wonder if we would make a Cat 4 teenage boy race in a Women's Pro1/2 race

because no men showed up. (read: devil's advocate)



Bottom line is this -- I'm a big fan of OBRA and all the RD's that make our

sport so great. I was just curious as I watched her race was some others

might think about the subject. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.



keep spinning,

Bryant Howard



mike.m-@obra.org

2002-11-25

The "if you build it they will come" is only true in a limited fashion. A

better expression would be "if you nurture it they will come". I think it

is a great idea to hold a race with divisions as listed below. It will,

however, be more difficult to cover expenses than the more frequently done

divisions since the potential markets identified at present are smaller. It

will also be essential that there be a method of limiting field size since a

single men's category might easily attract too large a group to run in a

single field.



Looking at past statistics you can show that when you hold a race for men

the filed size will be about 10% of the number of people on the OBRA list

that would qualify for that field. For women's races the number is about

20%. These numbers can go up depending on location and amount of marketing

but it is possible to predict field size for any given field by looking at

those numbers.



The numbers for the various division (annual road memberships) are below:



Junior Women (18 & under) 14

Women Masters 40+/50+ 52 (includes 50+)/8

Women Masters 30+ 124 (includes 40+)

Women Cat 4 131(39 below age 30, 12 juniors)

Women Cat 3 31 (11 below age 30, 1 junior)

Women Pro/1/2 18 (8 below 30, 1 junior)

Men (all categories) 1365



This means that the predicted field sizes will be around:



Junior Women (18 & under) 3

Women Masters 40+/50+ 10/2

Women Masters 30+ 24

Women Cat 4 26

Women Cat 3 6

Women Pro/1/2 4

Men (all categories) 136



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Shirley BROWN [mailto:Shirley-@EWEB.Eugene.OR.US]

Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 8:21 AM

To: vans-@budget.net; impro-@hotmail.com; ob-@topica.com

Cc: cmur-@obra.org

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Jr. Girls Division at races





Women, junior women, parents...,



I have felt (along with many of you) that if you build it, they will

come. You will have the chance to prove that theory on May 10th (the

day before Mother's Day) in the Even Steven Race. This is a race

intended to promote women's cycling by evening the playing field, if

only for a day. We will be offering 7 different categories for women

and yes, even "Steven" can race because we will offer 1 category for men

(open to all who wish to enter).



Junior Women (18 & under)

Women Masters 40+/50+

Women Masters 30+

Women Cat 4

Women Cat 3

Women Pro/1/2

Men (all categories)



We would like to encourage ALL women to enter this race, from the first

time racer to the seasoned veteran, whether you are entering this race

for the beautiful scenery, for a hard training ride, for a fun time, or

are racing to win. Stay tuned for more details in 2003 and spread the

word!



Shirley Brown

EWEB Windpower Cycling Team



   Jim VanSchoonhoven <vans-@budget.net> 11/24/02 03:12PM >>>

This is a hard subject for most promoters, because of the extra prizes

that

would need to be given out.



On the other hand this is a no brainer, if we want to encourage young

girls

to ride bikes and race bikes, they need their own class. The point is

not

just, if your daughter can have fun racing against the boys, but

rather,

what would be more encouraging to her and be best for other young

girls.



I remember one time talking to a mountain bike promoter in California

about

having a 14 and under boys class. He said there was no need to because

all

the boys were 15 years and older, except my son and he was placing in

the

top 3 experts. I told the promoter it was my opinion that the reason

there

were not more boys 14 and under was because they didn't want to race in

a

12-18 year old class and get destroyed by 18 year olds. He was open

minded

enough to put in a 14 and under class the next year and had 13 boys

sign up

for it!!! That was more than in the 15-18 year old class.



I think we see the same thing in a lot of master men and women races.

If

there were no master class races, I bet there would be fewer people

racing.



At least in mountain biking there are no young women racing, maybe we

don't

make it desirable for them to race. I know girls and women enjoy

mountain

biking, but yet most women racers don't start until they are 20 or

older. I

am not sure why, but maybe we are sending them a message that they

shouldn't

race. I know if I was a young girl and I wanted to race, I would look

for a

girls class that was my age and sign up in that class. If it wasn't

there, I

might not race because it might feel strange racing in the wrong class,

and

against boys.



I am glad to hear your daughter loves to race. Encourage her to have

fun

and watch out!!! I love to see young boys and girls racing. It sure

helps

to keep them out of trouble!!! They have fun and get tired at the

same

time.



BY the way to those very rare young girls that do race, I did not mean

to

slight you, when I said there are no young girls racing. I was trying

to

make a point. It is always thrilling to see you out there racing.



Jim VanSchoonhoven



-----Original Message-----

From: Performance Fitness [mailto:impro-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:11 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: cmur-@obra.org

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Jr. Girls Division at races





Just a thought here, my step-daughter has been racing the c/x series

this

fall (and having a blast) but she always ends up listed in the final

standings with her performance rated against Mikel and Taylor and all

the

other BOYS out there (who are in some cases beating the grown men).



Does it seem strange to anyone esle that she is essentially penalized

for

being the only girl out there by making her race elite level jr.

males?

Same thing happens at road races too. I'm interested in OBRA's

position as

well as the opinions of other races.



thanks in advance,

Bryant



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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mike.m-@obra.org

2002-11-25

This would not be an OBRA position. Race organizer's are able to have

whatever categories that they wish. OBRA does not specify requirements to

hold or not hold any particular category. The correct place to voice this

concern is to the race organizers directly.



Since time and resources are limited, most race organizers hold categories

that are likely to attract the largest number of competitors, hence the

plethora of Masters categories. Junior women is the smallest category so it

is the least likely to be held. The presence of only one girl there tends

to substantiate this. In addition, would it really make any difference if

the one girl was given a category all to herself which she would win

regardless of performance?



On the other hand, often one reason why a category is small is because it is

rarely offered. In the past this was the case for Masters women but now

there is a reasonable field size. If you could demonstrate to the race

organizer that there will be an adequate size field then it is likely that

they would be willing to run it. This is particularly true in CCX were

there would be little more requirement for extra resources.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Performance Fitness [mailto:impro-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 13:11 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: cmur-@obra.org

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Jr. Girls Division at races





Just a thought here, my step-daughter has been racing the c/x series this

fall (and having a blast) but she always ends up listed in the final

standings with her performance rated against Mikel and Taylor and all the

other BOYS out there (who are in some cases beating the grown men).



Does it seem strange to anyone esle that she is essentially penalized for

being the only girl out there by making her race elite level jr. males?

Same thing happens at road races too. I'm interested in OBRA's position as

well as the opinions of other races.



thanks in advance,

Bryant



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Shirley BROWN

2002-11-25

Women, junior women, parents...,



I have felt (along with many of you) that if you build it, they will

come. You will have the chance to prove that theory on May 10th (the

day before Mother's Day) in the Even Steven Race. This is a race

intended to promote women's cycling by evening the playing field, if

only for a day. We will be offering 7 different categories for women

and yes, even "Steven" can race because we will offer 1 category for men

(open to all who wish to enter).



Junior Women (18 & under)

Women Masters 40+/50+

Women Masters 30+

Women Cat 4

Women Cat 3

Women Pro/1/2

Men (all categories)



We would like to encourage ALL women to enter this race, from the first

time racer to the seasoned veteran, whether you are entering this race

for the beautiful scenery, for a hard training ride, for a fun time, or

are racing to win. Stay tuned for more details in 2003 and spread the

word!



Shirley Brown

EWEB Windpower Cycling Team



   Jim VanSchoonhoven <vans-@budget.net> 11/24/02 03:12PM >>>

This is a hard subject for most promoters, because of the extra prizes

that

would need to be given out.



On the other hand this is a no brainer, if we want to encourage young

girls

to ride bikes and race bikes, they need their own class. The point is

not

just, if your daughter can have fun racing against the boys, but

rather,

what would be more encouraging to her and be best for other young

girls.



I remember one time talking to a mountain bike promoter in California

about

having a 14 and under boys class. He said there was no need to because

all

the boys were 15 years and older, except my son and he was placing in

the

top 3 experts. I told the promoter it was my opinion that the reason

there

were not more boys 14 and under was because they didn't want to race in

a

12-18 year old class and get destroyed by 18 year olds. He was open

minded

enough to put in a 14 and under class the next year and had 13 boys

sign up

for it!!! That was more than in the 15-18 year old class.



I think we see the same thing in a lot of master men and women races.

If

there were no master class races, I bet there would be fewer people

racing.



At least in mountain biking there are no young women racing, maybe we

don't

make it desirable for them to race. I know girls and women enjoy

mountain

biking, but yet most women racers don't start until they are 20 or

older. I

am not sure why, but maybe we are sending them a message that they

shouldn't

race. I know if I was a young girl and I wanted to race, I would look

for a

girls class that was my age and sign up in that class. If it wasn't

there, I

might not race because it might feel strange racing in the wrong class,

and

against boys.



I am glad to hear your daughter loves to race. Encourage her to have

fun

and watch out!!! I love to see young boys and girls racing. It sure

helps

to keep them out of trouble!!! They have fun and get tired at the

same

time.



BY the way to those very rare young girls that do race, I did not mean

to

slight you, when I said there are no young girls racing. I was trying

to

make a point. It is always thrilling to see you out there racing.



Jim VanSchoonhoven



-----Original Message-----

From: Performance Fitness [mailto:impro-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:11 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: cmur-@obra.org

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Jr. Girls Division at races





Just a thought here, my step-daughter has been racing the c/x series

this

fall (and having a blast) but she always ends up listed in the final

standings with her performance rated against Mikel and Taylor and all

the

other BOYS out there (who are in some cases beating the grown men).



Does it seem strange to anyone esle that she is essentially penalized

for

being the only girl out there by making her race elite level jr.

males?

Same thing happens at road races too. I'm interested in OBRA's

position as

well as the opinions of other races.



thanks in advance,

Bryant



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Jim VanSchoonhoven

2002-11-24

This is a hard subject for most promoters, because of the extra prizes that

would need to be given out.



On the other hand this is a no brainer, if we want to encourage young girls

to ride bikes and race bikes, they need their own class. The point is not

just, if your daughter can have fun racing against the boys, but rather,

what would be more encouraging to her and be best for other young girls.



I remember one time talking to a mountain bike promoter in California about

having a 14 and under boys class. He said there was no need to because all

the boys were 15 years and older, except my son and he was placing in the

top 3 experts. I told the promoter it was my opinion that the reason there

were not more boys 14 and under was because they didn't want to race in a

12-18 year old class and get destroyed by 18 year olds. He was open minded

enough to put in a 14 and under class the next year and had 13 boys sign up

for it!!! That was more than in the 15-18 year old class.



I think we see the same thing in a lot of master men and women races. If

there were no master class races, I bet there would be fewer people racing.



At least in mountain biking there are no young women racing, maybe we don't

make it desirable for them to race. I know girls and women enjoy mountain

biking, but yet most women racers don't start until they are 20 or older. I

am not sure why, but maybe we are sending them a message that they shouldn't

race. I know if I was a young girl and I wanted to race, I would look for a

girls class that was my age and sign up in that class. If it wasn't there, I

might not race because it might feel strange racing in the wrong class, and

against boys.



I am glad to hear your daughter loves to race. Encourage her to have fun

and watch out!!! I love to see young boys and girls racing. It sure helps

to keep them out of trouble!!! They have fun and get tired at the same

time.



BY the way to those very rare young girls that do race, I did not mean to

slight you, when I said there are no young girls racing. I was trying to

make a point. It is always thrilling to see you out there racing.



Jim VanSchoonhoven



-----Original Message-----

From: Performance Fitness [mailto:impro-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:11 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Cc: cmur-@obra.org

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Jr. Girls Division at races





Just a thought here, my step-daughter has been racing the c/x series this

fall (and having a blast) but she always ends up listed in the final

standings with her performance rated against Mikel and Taylor and all the

other BOYS out there (who are in some cases beating the grown men).



Does it seem strange to anyone esle that she is essentially penalized for

being the only girl out there by making her race elite level jr. males?

Same thing happens at road races too. I'm interested in OBRA's position as

well as the opinions of other races.



thanks in advance,

Bryant



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Erik Voldengen

2002-11-24

I think you should focus on what's important:



 Just a thought here, my step-daughter has been racing the c/x series this

fall (and having a blast)



-Erik



Performance Fitness

2002-11-24

Just a thought here, my step-daughter has been racing the c/x series this

fall (and having a blast) but she always ends up listed in the final

standings with her performance rated against Mikel and Taylor and all the

other BOYS out there (who are in some cases beating the grown men).



Does it seem strange to anyone esle that she is essentially penalized for

being the only girl out there by making her race elite level jr. males?

Same thing happens at road races too. I'm interested in OBRA's position as

well as the opinions of other races.



thanks in advance,

Bryant