OBRA: OBRA Chat: Re: Lawyer Ride/Skyline

Brandon

2011-11-11

Erik Long

2011-11-11

Oh, come on! Clearly, someone capable of using so many big words in a single paragraph is capable of abstract thought and wisdom beyond our understanding.

Hard to say. He might not be Wrong.

Gib mible surl. Barg nawdle zouse.

From: mace6045@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:02:12 -0700
To: Wil.Catlin@nike.com
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline - horse watch

You lost me at "espousing pith"

BM

On Nov 11, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "Catlin, Wil" wrote:

(Sorry - forgot to indicate previously, this is a polemic, and as such boring as sin, a bit of a conceit, and likely to continue indefinitely, sorry again. Feel free NOT TO READ.)

John - cool?! Love it. I'm a skinny, balding, ink-less forty-something (ah hell, closer to 50) bike-commuter who only recently learned not to tuck in all his shirts. Oh, you weren't talking about me, were you? Drat.

But here: what I was ranting about and the way ranted about it will always be susceptible to responses featuring or espousing pith, reasonableness, and any greater-good or emotional/societal maturity variety of discourse. I totally acknowledge this fact, and if folks keep up with that we're going to see the little dead-horse kicking fellow real soon here. Which really would be too bad because everyone was being so very introspective and thoughtful around this topic.

My only real point was a logical one which I will restate differently: If Pooh goes in Rabbit's hole and eats too much pie (was it pie?) and then can't squeeze back out of Rabbit's hole, does he blame the size of the hole? Yes he does. And isn't that kind of funny.

Well, there was another point: what we work toward as a community reveals the values of our community. If we work toward harmony between people in bikes and cars under a car-centric transportation paradigm, then what we value is harmony between people under a car-centric transportation paradigm. Cool. Perhaps even imaginable. But I think (although I can't be certain) that I'd prefer to upend the car-centric part. Just to see what it would be like, if even for a couple of paragraphs. Among, um, friends.

Until next time,
Wil

- Oh, about the Scott Wheeler references. They are perhaps germane, if glib. I remember going to an inner-city youth work crew/racism education workshop with my fellow white, middle-class high school students in Philadelphia in the late 70s post-Rizzo era. One of us asked the inevitable question about reverse-racism, the "but if you prioritize minorities over whites in the distribution of resources, then aren't you just doing the same thing in reverse" kind of question. Our seasoned minority host said simply: "No. The discrimination is not the issue. We all discriminate. The issue is Power. We don't all have Power, which is the entire point." And please, please don't think I'm comparing bike riding to hundreds of years of denied civil liberties and a history of violent continental dislocation and enslavement. God I can hear those flames now.

Just don't confuse sharing with equality, because everyone who's ever ridden on Skyline in the dark, or not ridden out to a meeting on Skyline because it's a long way in the dark, knows we do not all have the same power out there. Not even close.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of johnfforbes@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 PM
To: Susan Otcenas
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline

The fact is we are sharing the road with cars. While we can all dream about a car-less society that isn't our reality. So, our job is as Susan puts it, SHARE, don't assume a righteous stance and crow about how cool you are.

3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
503-422-1239

From: "Susan Otcenas"
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline

>>Well said.

No, it's not. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Attitudes like the one expressed below are precisely why motorists get so upset with cyclists. And sadly, people like Scott Wheeler take out those frustrations on ALL cyclists, including the majority of us who share the road.

Yes, SHARE. It's one of the first things we are taught as children. How to share with others. How sad that it's a skill that seems to have been forgotten by too many motorists and cyclists alike.

Susan

***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************

Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************

Well said.

Joey

How about this: if a driver needs to alert you with a horn that they're too close, MAYBE THEY'RE JUST TOO CLOSE!

Our two-person paceline got that little honk from a woman speeding down the Skyline S curves while talking on the phone yesterday morning, even though we were exceeding the speed limit by about 5mph ourselves.

Actually, I'm always a bit surprised to hear of drivers being inconvenienced by cyclists. Bikes are about 18 inches wide. We don't take up much space. A person can fairly easily pass 100 cyclists strewn out on the road - we watch Cavendish do it all the time. Hell, you might pass 1,000 in the bridge pedal if you accidentally slept in.

The real issue is that people are choosing to try to pass bicycles WITH CARS. Duh! If folks elect to move around in two ton metal/composite appendages that are roughly the size of third-world duplexes, then yeah - it might get dicey trying to maneuver out there. Go figure. But don't blame it on the bikes. And if the cumbersome nature of those vehicles mean that drivers are stuck moving at, gasp, 18 miles per hour for while, at least they can enjoy climate control, lumbar cushions, and the ranting, anti-bike radio personality of their choice.

In truth (but with medical exceptions), drivers are inconvenienced by their own insistence on the convenience of driving. I'm continually shaken up by the sheer number of people with perfectly functioning cardio-respiratory systems and intact limbs who elect to move around in cars. It's rather mind-blowing. And if we're ever going to get them out of those cars, driving had better get a whole lot LESS convenient. Folks need to reach for their keys in the morning and say, shyyiiit - is it really worth the hassle of queuing up in the few dedicated personal vehicle lanes while everyone else is flying by on bikes and in busses?

Of course, then they'll just elect to hop on their Trek 'Morning Tadassana Commuter Townies' and we'll be yelling at them to hold their F****ing lines as they weave around trying to get over the little Hawthorne bridge rise, or cut across traffic to pull into the latest Starbikes 'ride through' express espresso window...

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Ron Frerichs

2011-11-11

Pie? Come on, Will.

Sorry, but someone who doesn't know Pooh loves honey has no credibility with me.

"It all comes from loving honey so much."

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Brandon
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:02:12
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline - horse watch

You lost me at "espousing pith"

BM

On Nov 11, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "Catlin, Wil" > wrote:

Brandon

2011-11-11

You lost me at "espousing pith"

BM

On Nov 11, 2011, at 3:28 PM, "Catlin, Wil" wrote:

>
> (Sorry - forgot to indicate previously, this is a polemic, and as such boring as sin, a bit of a conceit, and likely to continue indefinitely, sorry again. Feel free NOT TO READ.)
>
> John - cool?! Love it. I'm a skinny, balding, ink-less forty-something (ah hell, closer to 50) bike-commuter who only recently learned not to tuck in all his shirts. Oh, you weren't talking about me, were you? Drat.
>
> But here: what I was ranting about and the way ranted about it will always be susceptible to responses featuring or espousing pith, reasonableness, and any greater-good or emotional/societal maturity variety of discourse. I totally acknowledge this fact, and if folks keep up with that we're going to see the little dead-horse kicking fellow real soon here. Which really would be too bad because everyone was being so very introspective and thoughtful around this topic.
>
> My only real point was a logical one which I will restate differently: If Pooh goes in Rabbit's hole and eats too much pie (was it pie?) and then can't squeeze back out of Rabbit's hole, does he blame the size of the hole? Yes he does. And isn't that kind of funny.
>
> Well, there was another point: what we work toward as a community reveals the values of our community. If we work toward harmony between people in bikes and cars under a car-centric transportation paradigm, then what we value is harmony between people under a car-centric transportation paradigm. Cool. Perhaps even imaginable. But I think (although I can't be certain) that I'd prefer to upend the car-centric part. Just to see what it would be like, if even for a couple of paragraphs. Among, um, friends.
>
> Until next time,
> Wil
>
>
> - Oh, about the Scott Wheeler references. They are perhaps germane, if glib. I remember going to an inner-city youth work crew/racism education workshop with my fellow white, middle-class high school students in Philadelphia in the late 70s post-Rizzo era. One of us asked the inevitable question about reverse-racism, the "but if you prioritize minorities over whites in the distribution of resources, then aren't you just doing the same thing in reverse" kind of question. Our seasoned minority host said simply: "No. The discrimination is not the issue. We all discriminate. The issue is Power. We don't all have Power, which is the entire point." And please, please don't think I'm comparing bike riding to hundreds of years of denied civil liberties and a history of violent continental dislocation and enslavement. God I can hear those flames now.
>
> Just don't confuse sharing with equality, because everyone who's ever ridden on Skyline in the dark, or not ridden out to a meeting on Skyline because it's a long way in the dark, knows we do not all have the same power out there. Not even close.
>
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of johnfforbes@comcast.net
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 PM
> To: Susan Otcenas
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline
>
> The fact is we are sharing the road with cars. While we can all dream about a car-less society that isn't our reality. So, our job is as Susan puts it, SHARE, don't assume a righteous stance and crow about how cool you are.
>
> 3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
> 503-422-1239
>
> From: "Susan Otcenas"
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:11:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline
>
>
> >>Well said.
> No, it's not. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Attitudes like the one expressed below are precisely why motorists get so upset with cyclists. And sadly, people like Scott Wheeler take out those frustrations on ALL cyclists, including the majority of us who share the road.
>
> Yes, SHARE. It's one of the first things we are taught as children. How to share with others. How sad that it's a skill that seems to have been forgotten by too many motorists and cyclists alike.
>
> Susan
>
> ***********************************************
> Susan Otcenas
> Team Estrogen, Inc.
> www.TeamEstrogen.com
> 877-310-4592
> ***********************************************
> Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
> Look for "teamestrogen.com"
> ***********************************************
>
>
> Well said.
>
> Joey
>
>
> How about this: if a driver needs to alert you with a horn that they're too close, MAYBE THEY'RE JUST TOO CLOSE!
>
> Our two-person paceline got that little honk from a woman speeding down the Skyline S curves while talking on the phone yesterday morning, even though we were exceeding the speed limit by about 5mph ourselves.
>
> Actually, I'm always a bit surprised to hear of drivers being inconvenienced by cyclists. Bikes are about 18 inches wide. We don't take up much space. A person can fairly easily pass 100 cyclists strewn out on the road - we watch Cavendish do it all the time. Hell, you might pass 1,000 in the bridge pedal if you accidentally slept in.
>
> The real issue is that people are choosing to try to pass bicycles WITH CARS. Duh! If folks elect to move around in two ton metal/composite appendages that are roughly the size of third-world duplexes, then yeah - it might get dicey trying to maneuver out there. Go figure. But don't blame it on the bikes. And if the cumbersome nature of those vehicles mean that drivers are stuck moving at, gasp, 18 miles per hour for while, at least they can enjoy climate control, lumbar cushions, and the ranting, anti-bike radio personality of their choice.
>
> In truth (but with medical exceptions), drivers are inconvenienced by their own insistence on the convenience of driving. I'm continually shaken up by the sheer number of people with perfectly functioning cardio-respiratory systems and intact limbs who elect to move around in cars. It's rather mind-blowing. And if we're ever going to get them out of those cars, driving had better get a whole lot LESS convenient. Folks need to reach for their keys in the morning and say, shyyiiit - is it really worth the hassle of queuing up in the few dedicated personal vehicle lanes while everyone else is flying by on bikes and in busses?
>
> Of course, then they'll just elect to hop on their Trek 'Morning Tadassana Commuter Townies' and we'll be yelling at them to hold their F****ing lines as they weave around trying to get over the little Hawthorne bridge rise, or cut across traffic to pull into the latest Starbikes 'ride through' express espresso window...
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Catlin, Wil

2011-11-11

(Sorry - forgot to indicate previously, this is a polemic, and as such boring as sin, a bit of a conceit, and likely to continue indefinitely, sorry again. Feel free NOT TO READ.)

John - cool?! Love it. I'm a skinny, balding, ink-less forty-something (ah hell, closer to 50) bike-commuter who only recently learned not to tuck in all his shirts. Oh, you weren't talking about me, were you? Drat.

But here: what I was ranting about and the way ranted about it will always be susceptible to responses featuring or espousing pith, reasonableness, and any greater-good or emotional/societal maturity variety of discourse. I totally acknowledge this fact, and if folks keep up with that we're going to see the little dead-horse kicking fellow real soon here. Which really would be too bad because everyone was being so very introspective and thoughtful around this topic.

My only real point was a logical one which I will restate differently: If Pooh goes in Rabbit's hole and eats too much pie (was it pie?) and then can't squeeze back out of Rabbit's hole, does he blame the size of the hole? Yes he does. And isn't that kind of funny.

Well, there was another point: what we work toward as a community reveals the values of our community. If we work toward harmony between people in bikes and cars under a car-centric transportation paradigm, then what we value is harmony between people under a car-centric transportation paradigm. Cool. Perhaps even imaginable. But I think (although I can't be certain) that I'd prefer to upend the car-centric part. Just to see what it would be like, if even for a couple of paragraphs. Among, um, friends.

Until next time,
Wil

- Oh, about the Scott Wheeler references. They are perhaps germane, if glib. I remember going to an inner-city youth work crew/racism education workshop with my fellow white, middle-class high school students in Philadelphia in the late 70s post-Rizzo era. One of us asked the inevitable question about reverse-racism, the "but if you prioritize minorities over whites in the distribution of resources, then aren't you just doing the same thing in reverse" kind of question. Our seasoned minority host said simply: "No. The discrimination is not the issue. We all discriminate. The issue is Power. We don't all have Power, which is the entire point." And please, please don't think I'm comparing bike riding to hundreds of years of denied civil liberties and a history of violent continental dislocation and enslavement. God I can hear those flames now.

Just don't confuse sharing with equality, because everyone who's ever ridden on Skyline in the dark, or not ridden out to a meeting on Skyline because it's a long way in the dark, knows we do not all have the same power out there. Not even close.

________________________________
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of johnfforbes@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:32 PM
To: Susan Otcenas
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline

The fact is we are sharing the road with cars. While we can all dream about a car-less society that isn't our reality. So, our job is as Susan puts it, SHARE, don't assume a righteous stance and crow about how cool you are.

3641 SW 52nd Place, Portland Oregon, 97221
503-422-1239

________________________________
From: "Susan Otcenas"
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lawyer Ride/Skyline

>>Well said.
No, it's not. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Attitudes like the one expressed below are precisely why motorists get so upset with cyclists. And sadly, people like Scott Wheeler take out those frustrations on ALL cyclists, including the majority of us who share the road.

Yes, SHARE. It's one of the first things we are taught as children. How to share with others. How sad that it's a skill that seems to have been forgotten by too many motorists and cyclists alike.

Susan

***********************************************
Susan Otcenas
Team Estrogen, Inc.
www.TeamEstrogen.com
877-310-4592
***********************************************
Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!
Look for "teamestrogen.com"
***********************************************

Well said.

Joey

How about this: if a driver needs to alert you with a horn that they're too close, MAYBE THEY'RE JUST TOO CLOSE!

Our two-person paceline got that little honk from a woman speeding down the Skyline S curves while talking on the phone yesterday morning, even though we were exceeding the speed limit by about 5mph ourselves.

Actually, I'm always a bit surprised to hear of drivers being inconvenienced by cyclists. Bikes are about 18 inches wide. We don't take up much space. A person can fairly easily pass 100 cyclists strewn out on the road - we watch Cavendish do it all the time. Hell, you might pass 1,000 in the bridge pedal if you accidentally slept in.

The real issue is that people are choosing to try to pass bicycles WITH CARS. Duh! If folks elect to move around in two ton metal/composite appendages that are roughly the size of third-world duplexes, then yeah - it might get dicey trying to maneuver out there. Go figure. But don't blame it on the bikes. And if the cumbersome nature of those vehicles mean that drivers are stuck moving at, gasp, 18 miles per hour for while, at least they can enjoy climate control, lumbar cushions, and the ranting, anti-bike radio personality of their choice.

In truth (but with medical exceptions), drivers are inconvenienced by their own insistence on the convenience of driving. I'm continually shaken up by the sheer number of people with perfectly functioning cardio-respiratory systems and intact limbs who elect to move around in cars. It's rather mind-blowing. And if we're ever going to get them out of those cars, driving had better get a whole lot LESS convenient. Folks need to reach for their keys in the morning and say, shyyiiit - is it really worth the hassle of queuing up in the few dedicated personal vehicle lanes while everyone else is flying by on bikes and in busses?

Of course, then they'll just elect to hop on their Trek 'Morning Tadassana Commuter Townies' and we'll be yelling at them to hold their F****ing lines as they weave around trying to get over the little Hawthorne bridge rise, or cut across traffic to pull into the latest Starbikes 'ride through' express espresso window...

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Re: Lawyer Ride/Skyline - horse watch

Brandon

Erik Long

Ron Frerichs

Brandon

Catlin, Wil