Monty Hill

I believe many of the cyclist killed have the same exact attitude. We need to educate motor vehicle operators that the public right-of-way is a shared use and remind them of the incredible responsibility necessary to drive a motor vehicle. There seems to be a complete lack of accountability and complacency with motor vehicles. If I fired a gun down a public right of way and hit someone. I would be in jail. If I fire my car down the public right of way and hit a pedestrian or cyclist I walk away. Only difference is the car could kill a lot more effectively in a crowded place.

If the sun was in my eyes when I shot my gun, it would still be a BS excuse.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of David Rosen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 12:32 PM
To: Ben Fischler; john
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Death

I grew up in NYC just like Ben did but was riding the streets in the 80's and 90's. Just like Ben, I had the same attitude towards drivers. Just try and be as careful as you can and know that everyone is a potential danger to you.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

Ben Fischler wrote:

>On Feb 2, 2012, at 3:06 PM, john wrote:
>
>> When i was in the Navy, one of the F18 pilots reminded his colleagues to always "Fly Scared". In other words, you are piloting a big dangerous machine of death and destruction at any juncture. It should be similar while driving: you should always, Be scared, be very scared. Anything less is irresponsible.
>
>
>YESyesYes. Thank you. I grew up riding bikes in NYC in the 70's. My parents rode *everywhere*. I didn't even learn how to drive a car until I was almost 20 and was moving out of New York. Public Transit should be fully funded everywhere. But I digress...
>
>My Dad's #1 Rule for Riding (and driving for that matter): Cars Are Deadly Weapons. Rule #2: Assume that 99.99% of drivers are schmucks out to kill you whether you know it or not. Ride and drive with extreme vigilance at all times.
>
>> Transporting yourself via your own human power on any LOC (line of communication) should have measureless priority over any other form of mechanized poisoning (polluting) transport. Anything else anti-freedom. After all Jail is all about limiting your physical movement. And you can't force people to drive ?
>
>
>Amen.
>
>-Ben
>
>AnimationMentor.com
>[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

David Rosen

I grew up in NYC just like Ben did but was riding the streets in the 80's and 90's. Just like Ben, I had the same attitude towards drivers. Just try and be as careful as you can and know that everyone is a potential danger to you.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

Ben Fischler wrote:

>On Feb 2, 2012, at 3:06 PM, john wrote:
>
>> When i was in the Navy, one of the F18 pilots reminded his colleagues to always "Fly Scared". In other words, you are piloting a big dangerous machine of death and destruction at any juncture. It should be similar while driving: you should always, Be scared, be very scared. Anything less is irresponsible.
>
>
>YESyesYes. Thank you. I grew up riding bikes in NYC in the 70's. My parents rode *everywhere*. I didn't even learn how to drive a car until I was almost 20 and was moving out of New York. Public Transit should be fully funded everywhere. But I digress...
>
>My Dad's #1 Rule for Riding (and driving for that matter): Cars Are Deadly Weapons. Rule #2: Assume that 99.99% of drivers are schmucks out to kill you whether you know it or not. Ride and drive with extreme vigilance at all times.
>
>> Transporting yourself via your own human power on any LOC (line of communication) should have measureless priority over any other form of mechanized poisoning (polluting) transport. Anything else anti-freedom. After all Jail is all about limiting your physical movement. And you can't force people to drive ?
>
>
>Amen.
>
>-Ben
>
>AnimationMentor.com
>[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Ben Fischler

On Feb 2, 2012, at 3:06 PM, john wrote:

> When i was in the Navy, one of the F18 pilots reminded his colleagues to always "Fly Scared". In other words, you are piloting a big dangerous machine of death and destruction at any juncture. It should be similar while driving: you should always, Be scared, be very scared. Anything less is irresponsible.

YESyesYes. Thank you. I grew up riding bikes in NYC in the 70's. My parents rode *everywhere*. I didn't even learn how to drive a car until I was almost 20 and was moving out of New York. Public Transit should be fully funded everywhere. But I digress...

My Dad's #1 Rule for Riding (and driving for that matter): Cars Are Deadly Weapons. Rule #2: Assume that 99.99% of drivers are schmucks out to kill you whether you know it or not. Ride and drive with extreme vigilance at all times.

> Transporting yourself via your own human power on any LOC (line of communication) should have measureless priority over any other form of mechanized poisoning (polluting) transport. Anything else anti-freedom. After all Jail is all about limiting your physical movement. And you can't force people to drive ?

Amen.

-Ben

AnimationMentor.com
[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]

John Bravard

Somewhat related is this quote I read as a comment to a magazine article:

"...almost no vehicle crash is an accident. Most were rehearsed a hundred times or more before they actually occurred."

On Feb 2, 2012, at 3:06 PM, john wrote:

> If one is relying on split sec here or a split sec there to see what's on the road, then one is going way to fast. Yeah you might be blinded for a split second, but you should have been looking and seeing the road prior to being blinded !
>
> What really sucks is society's ho-hum attitude of "accidents". I know there are various definitions of "accident" , "acts of God", one's intent, and all that.
>
> But (imho), the Opinion our society needs to start having, is that car accidents are almost ALWAYS avoidable (except maybe acts-of-God, ie your car gets struck by lightening on a clear day.) Short of someone leaping in front of a vehicle at the last split second, the car driver should always be at fault.
>
> We need to start treating vehicles as the extremely Dangerous machines that they are. We know they kill 30-40 thousand in the US per year and maim and injure probably hundreds of thousands more.
>
> So anyway, in this case, the car driver will easily get over it, as everyone tells him the typical excuses (sun was in your eyes, really there was nothing you could have done, etc, etc, the cyclists was too far out in the road, too low to the ground, or had other issues with cars, etc). Premature Death on the other hand is a little harder to get over.
> What should be asked, is why wasn't the car driver taking the Train/mass transit? why wasn't the car driver riding his bike or walking, why was the person even driving. Why didn't the driver have options, why is the urban planning set up such that driving is main option? Why wasn't the driver being ultra careful? (why wasn't that instilled into them).
>
> When i was in the Navy, one of the F18 pilots reminded his colleagues to always "Fly Scared". In other words, you are piloting a big dangerous machine of death and destruction at any juncture. It should be similar while driving: you should always, Be scared, be very scared. Anything less is irresponsible.
>
> Transporting yourself via your own human power on any LOC (line of communication) should have measureless priority over any other form of mechanized poisoning (polluting) transport. Anything else anti-freedom. After all Jail is all about limiting your physical movement. And you can't force people to drive ?
>
> This isn't extreme. What's extreme is taking a trip to houston or many other places in the US and not even being able to practically get a block to two without driving a car. Talk about anti-freedom mess. What the hell is going on !? Portland is pretty nice considering.
>
> The next 20-30 years we need to start changing... to the way it was 100 yrs ago.
>
> On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Matt Savage wrote:
> West bound doesn't mean facing west... The sun is low and bright, even in mid day. Throw in the sharp contrast of driving under trees and it's extremely difficult to see at times. A split second of bright light in the drivers eyes, the cyclist possibly in a shadow, recipe for disaster.
>
> I don't like the fact that everyone is so quick to string up the driver... If conditions are so "dangerous" that him driving warrants him negligent, why was the cyclist there? Should the cyclist not have considered the conditions and think "hey i could get hit by a car in these conditions..." Why is the cyclist infallible? Unfortunately, no one was there to witness the cyclists actions at that moment, but that shouldn't automatically recuse him from any liability or accountability.
>
> He's dead. It sucks, it could be any one of us any day. But that driver, who was possibly just having a nice routine leisurely drive, now has to live with fact that he killed someone. And some people can't always live with that on their shoulders.
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's EyeFöne...
>
> On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Mike Engelmann wrote:
>
> > I'm still waiting for a better explanation of how the sun was supposedly in the driver's face if the information is true that he was WESTbound while it was still relatively early in the day. 4-6pm, sure, or eastbound in the morning, but otherwise it doesn't add up. Was that part mis-reported?
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

Remember there are a lot factors involved- beyond what has been reported.

We simply weren't there. I've ridden and driven that stretch many
many times. As a rider, it's not my favorite. It isn't out of the
realm of possibility that a driver would be briefly blinded by the sun
coming in at the wrong angle. It could have been an unfortunate set
of circumstances. We just don't know.

No matter the outcome, Ron hit the nail on the head- as the OBRA sage
says- ride safely. Pay attention to the road and your surroundings.
We value all of you.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 8:29 PM, Chipp wrote:
> Way to go above and beyond Kenji !

Chipp

Way to go above and beyond Kenji ! ----- Original Message -----
From: craig austin
To: rondot@spiritone.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Death

The world needs more loonies like Ron.

Craig

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:22 PM, wrote:

I am sure this will be well investigated. I hope justice is served whatever this means. Justice is only helping those who are alive. He is gone. That is sad. Those of us who rode today and are home safe need to do what this old man does very often.......be glad for every taste of beer you sip, hill you crest, mudbog you manage to stay upright though and smile you see.
Try to be positive to all people out there even though there are times you just want to strangle individuals. Not that I have not thrown the "f" word at drivers or other cyclists on occasion. I know every time I have done that it did nothing to HELP us all understand our need to make it work for everyone in their daily lives.
I also urge bike riders to think about the types of roads they choose to ride on and the times they ride them. It is true that one of us could be run down by an auto driver at anytime of day or night even if doing all the right things. I just know from MANY years of riding in many circumstances that there are /were times when I was taking some big chances with my life. I am lucky. I believe many of us are lucky. That does not mean that drivers are justified when they hit and or kill bicycle riders, but they are a mixed bag of individuals whose experience is all over the board with regard to driving around cyclists. This does not justify a driver hitting and killing or causing injury to a rider, but it is fact. There are people who move into an area like the Willamette valley where there are many cyclists...who have experienced few cyclists on the road. Not saying this was what happened here, but people it is dangerous out there. We are nothing compared to an automobile...even a mini cooper or honda fit.
Do not think that I minimize this tragedy. Just be careful. Proving a point if it puts you in the hospital, changes your life experience forever and or kills you will do little to make it better for other riders.
I was not going to say anything else about this because I know there will be another one before we expect it. If you have anything to give to the investigation...do it. If not and you need to....keep talking on this thread. But be careful and courteous out on the road. That will do more in the long run to help future riders.
Please just reply to me if you think I am a loony.
thanks,
ron

-----Original Message----- From: T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:21 PM
To: Kevin
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Death

I went over to the accident site this afternoon and took a closer look.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra3/sets/72157629150748905/

While I am not an accident reconstruction expert the initial markings
seem to indicate Dave was toward the edge of the road. Given the
width of the road I would say that he was as far right as practicable
if the initial assumptions on the markings holds true.

The shoulder is extremely narrow. Looking west you can see there is
potential for road glare when the road is coming south east. But, the
markings seem to indicate that the impact occurred in the shaded area
after the road turns directly east. I'll swing by there again to see
where the sun is at around 10-11 AM.

It looks like the case has been transferred to the Polk County DA's
office- and the looks as if the Yamhill News story has also been
changed.

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
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http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

craig austin

The world needs more loonies like Ron.

Craig

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 7:22 PM, wrote:

> I am sure this will be well investigated. I hope justice is served
> whatever this means. Justice is only helping those who are alive. He is
> gone. That is sad. Those of us who rode today and are home safe need to
> do what this old man does very often.......be glad for every taste of beer
> you sip, hill you crest, mudbog you manage to stay upright though and smile
> you see.
> Try to be positive to all people out there even though there are times you
> just want to strangle individuals. Not that I have not thrown the "f" word
> at drivers or other cyclists on occasion. I know every time I have done
> that it did nothing to HELP us all understand our need to make it work for
> everyone in their daily lives.
> I also urge bike riders to think about the types of roads they choose to
> ride on and the times they ride them. It is true that one of us could be
> run down by an auto driver at anytime of day or night even if doing all the
> right things. I just know from MANY years of riding in many circumstances
> that there are /were times when I was taking some big chances with my life.
> I am lucky. I believe many of us are lucky. That does not mean that
> drivers are justified when they hit and or kill bicycle riders, but they
> are a mixed bag of individuals whose experience is all over the board with
> regard to driving around cyclists. This does not justify a driver hitting
> and killing or causing injury to a rider, but it is fact. There are people
> who move into an area like the Willamette valley where there are many
> cyclists...who have experienced few cyclists on the road. Not saying this
> was what happened here, but people it is dangerous out there. We are
> nothing compared to an automobile...even a mini cooper or honda fit.
> Do not think that I minimize this tragedy. Just be careful. Proving a
> point if it puts you in the hospital, changes your life experience forever
> and or kills you will do little to make it better for other riders.
> I was not going to say anything else about this because I know there will
> be another one before we expect it. If you have anything to give to the
> investigation...do it. If not and you need to....keep talking on this
> thread. But be careful and courteous out on the road. That will do more
> in the long run to help future riders.
> Please just reply to me if you think I am a loony.
> thanks,
> ron
>
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: T. Kenji Sugahara
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:21 PM
> To: Kevin
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Death
>
> I went over to the accident site this afternoon and took a closer look.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/**obra3/sets/72157629150748905/
>
> While I am not an accident reconstruction expert the initial markings
> seem to indicate Dave was toward the edge of the road. Given the
> width of the road I would say that he was as far right as practicable
> if the initial assumptions on the markings holds true.
>
> The shoulder is extremely narrow. Looking west you can see there is
> potential for road glare when the road is coming south east. But, the
> markings seem to indicate that the impact occurred in the shaded area
> after the road turns directly east. I'll swing by there again to see
> where the sun is at around 10-11 AM.
>
> It looks like the case has been transferred to the Polk County DA's
> office- and the looks as if the Yamhill News story has also been
> changed.
>
>
> --
> Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> Phone: 503-278-5550
> http://www.obra.org
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

rondot@spiritone.com

I am sure this will be well investigated. I hope justice is served whatever
this means. Justice is only helping those who are alive. He is gone. That
is sad. Those of us who rode today and are home safe need to do what this
old man does very often.......be glad for every taste of beer you sip, hill
you crest, mudbog you manage to stay upright though and smile you see.
Try to be positive to all people out there even though there are times you
just want to strangle individuals. Not that I have not thrown the "f" word
at drivers or other cyclists on occasion. I know every time I have done
that it did nothing to HELP us all understand our need to make it work for
everyone in their daily lives.
I also urge bike riders to think about the types of roads they choose to
ride on and the times they ride them. It is true that one of us could be
run down by an auto driver at anytime of day or night even if doing all the
right things. I just know from MANY years of riding in many circumstances
that there are /were times when I was taking some big chances with my life.
I am lucky. I believe many of us are lucky. That does not mean that
drivers are justified when they hit and or kill bicycle riders, but they are
a mixed bag of individuals whose experience is all over the board with
regard to driving around cyclists. This does not justify a driver hitting
and killing or causing injury to a rider, but it is fact. There are people
who move into an area like the Willamette valley where there are many
cyclists...who have experienced few cyclists on the road. Not saying this
was what happened here, but people it is dangerous out there. We are
nothing compared to an automobile...even a mini cooper or honda fit.
Do not think that I minimize this tragedy. Just be careful. Proving a
point if it puts you in the hospital, changes your life experience forever
and or kills you will do little to make it better for other riders.
I was not going to say anything else about this because I know there will be
another one before we expect it. If you have anything to give to the
investigation...do it. If not and you need to....keep talking on this
thread. But be careful and courteous out on the road. That will do more in
the long run to help future riders.
Please just reply to me if you think I am a loony.
thanks,
ron

-----Original Message-----
From: T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:21 PM
To: Kevin
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Death

I went over to the accident site this afternoon and took a closer look.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra3/sets/72157629150748905/

While I am not an accident reconstruction expert the initial markings
seem to indicate Dave was toward the edge of the road. Given the
width of the road I would say that he was as far right as practicable
if the initial assumptions on the markings holds true.

The shoulder is extremely narrow. Looking west you can see there is
potential for road glare when the road is coming south east. But, the
markings seem to indicate that the impact occurred in the shaded area
after the road turns directly east. I'll swing by there again to see
where the sun is at around 10-11 AM.

It looks like the case has been transferred to the Polk County DA's
office- and the looks as if the Yamhill News story has also been
changed.

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

T. Kenji Sugahara

I went over to the accident site this afternoon and took a closer look.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/obra3/sets/72157629150748905/

While I am not an accident reconstruction expert the initial markings
seem to indicate Dave was toward the edge of the road. Given the
width of the road I would say that he was as far right as practicable
if the initial assumptions on the markings holds true.

The shoulder is extremely narrow. Looking west you can see there is
potential for road glare when the road is coming south east. But, the
markings seem to indicate that the impact occurred in the shaded area
after the road turns directly east. I'll swing by there again to see
where the sun is at around 10-11 AM.

It looks like the case has been transferred to the Polk County DA's
office- and the looks as if the Yamhill News story has also been
changed.

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone:

Kevin

If this were facebook I'd be clicking on "like" on Jon's post

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original Message --------
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Cyclist Death
From :john
Date :Thu, 02-Feb-2012 15:06
To :obra@list.obra.org
CC :

Rick Johnson

That's classic, "Officers tried to use a Taser to subdue him, but
Canterbury successfully deflected one of the wires away."



He used the Force against the force!

:-D



Rick

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

 > Why
wasn't the driver being ultra careful? (why wasn't that
instilled into them).   

Because there are
little to no consequences for NOT being careful.

 

On the other hand, as
was pointed out on another cycling list I'm on, one can be
sentenced to 45 days in jail for hitting someone with a
plastic light saber in a toy store. http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/01/man_who_swung_light_sabers_at.html

 

So let that be a
lesson to you.  Put down the light saber before someone gets
hurt.

 

Susan 

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Susan Otcenas

> Why wasn't the driver being ultra careful? (why wasn't that instilled
into them).
Because there are little to no consequences for NOT being careful.

On the other hand, as was pointed out on another cycling list I'm on,
one can be sentenced to 45 days in jail for hitting someone with a
plastic light saber in a toy store.
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/01/man_who_swung_light
_sabers_at.html


So let that be a lesson to you. Put down the light saber before someone
gets hurt.

Susan

john

If one is relying on split sec here or a split sec there to see what's on
the road, then one is going way to fast. Yeah you might be blinded for a
split second, but you should have been looking and seeing the road prior to
being blinded !

What really sucks is society's ho-hum attitude of "accidents". I know
there are various definitions of "accident" , "acts of God", one's intent,
and all that.

But (imho), the Opinion our society needs to start having, is that car
accidents are almost ALWAYS avoidable (except maybe acts-of-God, ie your
car gets struck by lightening on a clear day.) Short of someone leaping
in front of a vehicle at the last split second, the car driver
should always be at fault.

We need to start treating vehicles as the extremely Dangerous machines that
they are. We know they kill 30-40 thousand in the US per year and maim and
injure probably hundreds of thousands more.

So anyway, in this case, the car driver will easily get over it,
as everyone tells him the typical excuses (sun was in your eyes, really
there was nothing you could have done, etc, etc, the cyclists was too far
out in the road, too low to the ground, or had other issues with cars,
etc). Premature Death on the other hand is a little harder to get over.
What should be asked, is why wasn't the car driver taking the Train/mass
transit? why wasn't the car driver riding his bike or walking, why was the
person even driving. Why didn't the driver have options, why is the urban
planning set up such that driving is main option? Why wasn't the driver
being ultra careful? (why wasn't that instilled into them).

When i was in the Navy, one of the F18 pilots reminded his colleagues to
always "Fly Scared". In other words, you are piloting a big dangerous
machine of death and destruction at any juncture. It should be similar
while driving: you should always, Be scared, be very scared. Anything less
is irresponsible.

Transporting yourself via your own human power on any LOC (line of
communication) should have measureless priority over any other form of
mechanized poisoning (polluting) transport. Anything else anti-freedom.
After all Jail is all about limiting your physical movement. And you can't
force people to drive ?

This isn't extreme. What's extreme is taking a trip to houston or many
other places in the US and not even being able to practically get a block
to two without driving a car. Talk about anti-freedom mess. What the
hell is going on !? Portland is pretty nice considering.

The next 20-30 years we need to start changing... to the way it was 100
yrs ago.

On Thu, Feb 2, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Matt Savage wrote:

> West bound doesn't mean facing west... The sun is low and bright, even in
> mid day. Throw in the sharp contrast of driving under trees and it's
> extremely difficult to see at times. A split second of bright light in the
> drivers eyes, the cyclist possibly in a shadow, recipe for disaster.
>
> I don't like the fact that everyone is so quick to string up the driver...
> If conditions are so "dangerous" that him driving warrants him negligent,
> why was the cyclist there? Should the cyclist not have considered the
> conditions and think "hey i could get hit by a car in these conditions..."
> Why is the cyclist infallible? Unfortunately, no one was there to witness
> the cyclists actions at that moment, but that shouldn't automatically
> recuse him from any liability or accountability.
>
> He's dead. It sucks, it could be any one of us any day. But that driver,
> who was possibly just having a nice routine leisurely drive, now has to
> live with fact that he killed someone. And some people can't always live
> with that on their shoulders.
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's EyeF

Mike Engelmann

I still don't buy that... I've been on hopewell rd before; it skews towards the north if you're heading westbound so if anything, the sun (low and bright or not) should more likely be behind you in that scenario.

I don't see that as necessarily "stringing up the driver"; just trying to piece together the facts such as they've been presented, to try and get a better idea what may have happened since as you say we lack witnesses (other than the driver, of course, whose testimony could possibly be colored by self-interest).

And unless the cyclist was riding erratically, it's hard for me to see where he'd have been at fault in the absence of an intersection involving turing movements, etc; he has no less right to be there than the motorist. Trying to suppose the conditions were too dangerous seems like a red herring to me.

On Feb 2, 2012, at 10:05 AM, Matt Savage wrote:

> West bound doesn't mean facing west... The sun is low and bright, even in mid day. Throw in the sharp contrast of driving under trees and it's extremely difficult to see at times. A split second of bright light in the drivers eyes, the cyclist possibly in a shadow, recipe for disaster.
>
> I don't like the fact that everyone is so quick to string up the driver... If conditions are so "dangerous" that him driving warrants him negligent, why was the cyclist there? Should the cyclist not have considered the conditions and think "hey i could get hit by a car in these conditions..." Why is the cyclist infallible? Unfortunately, no one was there to witness the cyclists actions at that moment, but that shouldn't automatically recuse him from any liability or accountability.
>
> He's dead. It sucks, it could be any one of us any day. But that driver, who was possibly just having a nice routine leisurely drive, now has to live with fact that he killed someone. And some people can't always live with that on their shoulders.
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's EyeFöne...
>
> On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Mike Engelmann wrote:
>
>> I'm still waiting for a better explanation of how the sun was supposedly in the driver's face if the information is true that he was WESTbound while it was still relatively early in the day. 4-6pm, sure, or eastbound in the morning, but otherwise it doesn't add up. Was that part mis-reported?
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

I'm simply advocating for a thorough investigation. We had a incident
over here this past summer that result in a fatality. The driver
initially issued similar proclamations as heard in this recent case.
However, the police investigation was very comprehensive and it revealed
that there was much, much more to the story.

You can read about the outcome here:
http://www.ktvz.com/news/30188238/detail.html

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

On 2/2/2012 10:05 AM, Matt Savage wrote:
> West bound doesn't mean facing west... The sun is low and bright, even in mid day. Throw in the sharp contrast of driving under trees and it's extremely difficult to see at times. A split second of bright light in the drivers eyes, the cyclist possibly in a shadow, recipe for disaster.
>
> I don't like the fact that everyone is so quick to string up the driver... If conditions are so "dangerous" that him driving warrants him negligent, why was the cyclist there? Should the cyclist not have considered the conditions and think "hey i could get hit by a car in these conditions..." Why is the cyclist infallible? Unfortunately, no one was there to witness the cyclists actions at that moment, but that shouldn't automatically recuse him from any liability or accountability.
>
> He's dead. It sucks, it could be any one of us any day. But that driver, who was possibly just having a nice routine leisurely drive, now has to live with fact that he killed someone. And some people can't always live with that on their shoulders.
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's EyeFöne...
>
> On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Mike Engelmann wrote:
>
>> I'm still waiting for a better explanation of how the sun was supposedly in the driver's face if the information is true that he was WESTbound while it was still relatively early in the day. 4-6pm, sure, or eastbound in the morning, but otherwise it doesn't add up. Was that part mis-reported?
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Matt Savage

West bound doesn't mean facing west... The sun is low and bright, even in mid day. Throw in the sharp contrast of driving under trees and it's extremely difficult to see at times. A split second of bright light in the drivers eyes, the cyclist possibly in a shadow, recipe for disaster.

I don't like the fact that everyone is so quick to string up the driver... If conditions are so "dangerous" that him driving warrants him negligent, why was the cyclist there? Should the cyclist not have considered the conditions and think "hey i could get hit by a car in these conditions..." Why is the cyclist infallible? Unfortunately, no one was there to witness the cyclists actions at that moment, but that shouldn't automatically recuse him from any liability or accountability.

He's dead. It sucks, it could be any one of us any day. But that driver, who was possibly just having a nice routine leisurely drive, now has to live with fact that he killed someone. And some people can't always live with that on their shoulders.

Sent from Matt Savage's EyeFöne...

On Feb 2, 2012, at 8:29 AM, Mike Engelmann wrote:

> I'm still waiting for a better explanation of how the sun was supposedly in the driver's face if the information is true that he was WESTbound while it was still relatively early in the day. 4-6pm, sure, or eastbound in the morning, but otherwise it doesn't add up. Was that part mis-reported?
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Engelmann

I'm still waiting for a better explanation of how the sun was supposedly in the driver's face if the information is true that he was WESTbound while it was still relatively early in the day. 4-6pm, sure, or eastbound in the morning, but otherwise it doesn't add up. Was that part mis-reported?