Re: Group Rides - Observation

Tom Orth

2012-02-07

I had the same reaction as Susan. I just didn't say anything. Thanks Susan.

Sent from my iPhone, may contain inexcusable typos

On Feb 6, 2012, at 1:47 PM, "Susan Otcenas" wrote:

>>> Personally I think Susan was reading more into the message than what
> was intended.
>
> It would be nice to think so, but judging from all the positive off-list
> replies I got after my post, I was clearly not the only one who
> interpreted mohair's remarks in that way.
>
> You may know him(?) personally, but I don't know him from Adam. His
> statement was condescending.
>
> Cycling is a big tent, with plenty of room for riders of all stripes.
> Fast, slow, tall, short, fat, skinny, lycra-clad or tweed-clad. We do
> our sport no service when we blame others for weaknesses we fail to see
> in ourselves.
>
> Susan
> (who needs to put her foot down at stop signs a little more often!)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Murray
> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:33 PM
> To: remailer, OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
>
> Interesting that someone could post this it what is likely the least
> elitist bike racer market in the country. Personally I think Susan was
> reading more into the message than what was intended.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Brady Brady

2012-02-07

Once when I was in North Plains at Glencoe and West Union I actually did open my door and put my foot down because our favorite "server and protector" was there.

A cheap smile for myself.

Brady Brady
JMP Academics
brady.brady@jmp.com
Office: 919.531.9767
Mobile: 503.545.2110

On Feb 6, 2012, at 2:24 PM, "Kevin" wrote:

> I will put my foot on the ground when I stop when I see auto drivers opening their door and putting their feet on the ground as well. Until that time, a stop is a stop. Verified by helmet cam if necessary.
>
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
> From: Rick Johnson
> Date: Mon, 06-Feb-2012 14:07
> To: Susan Otcenas
> CC: obra
>
> On 2/6/2012 1:47 PM, Susan Otcenas wrote:
>> Susan
>> (who needs to put her foot down at stop signs a little more often!)
>
> Actually in Oregon the law requires coming to a complete stop, nothing
> in it about feet on the ground.
> Personally I enjoy the challenge of track standing through an entire
> cycle of a traffic light. Compared to that stop signs are a breeze.
> ;-)
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
> One, it's completely impossible.
> Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
> Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
>
> Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Kevin

2012-02-06

I will put my foot on the ground when I stop when I see auto drivers opening their door and putting their feet on the ground as well. Until that time, a stop is a stop. Verified by helmet cam if necessary.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
From: Rick Johnson
Date: Mon, 06-Feb-2012 14:07
To: Susan Otcenas
CC: obra

On 2/6/2012 1:47 PM, Susan Otcenas wrote:
> Susan
> (who needs to put her foot down at stop signs a little more often!)

Actually in Oregon the law requires coming to a complete stop, nothing
in it about feet on the ground.
Personally I enjoy the challenge of track standing through an entire
cycle of a traffic light. Compared to that stop signs are a breeze.
;-)

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Rick Johnson

2012-02-06

On 2/6/2012 1:47 PM, Susan Otcenas wrote:
> Susan
> (who needs to put her foot down at stop signs a little more often!)

Actually in Oregon the law requires coming to a complete stop, nothing
in it about feet on the ground.
Personally I enjoy the challenge of track standing through an entire
cycle of a traffic light. Compared to that stop signs are a breeze.
;-)

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke


Brett Boyles

2012-02-06

We also need a list to help people with regular life activities.

Here's a start:

1. Don't pee on the toilet seat.
2. Don't double dip in the nacho sauce
3. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:57 PM
To: Gregg Magnus
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation

Here's some Do's and Don'ts to be a responsible cyclist.

1. Be courteous and share the road. Being courteous gains respect
and helps makes the roads safer for all cyclists.
2. The law allows you to ride two abreast, but it may not be the
courteous or safe option. If you hear a vehicle approaching from behind, ride single file. Don't ride three abreast.
3. If you're blocking a whole line of cars and there's a place to
safely pull off be courteous and stop.
4. Don't wander all over the road. Try to ride predictably and as
far right as safely as you can. This does not mean to ride in an area that is littered with road debris or places you at risk.
5. Do take the lane if it safe to do so if there is a blind
corner, high-risk junction or narrowing of the road.
6. Use common sense - don't pee in people's yards or hang out
across the entire road if you're waiting for a regroup.
7. Stop at stop signs and signals. By law, cyclists must obey all
traffic control devices.
8. Signal your intentions if you can safely do so. If you are
turning, point in the direction you plan on going. If you are slowing, put your hand out behind you.
9. If you wave a car around you, don't get impatient. Remember
that it is their decision to make as to whether it is safe to pass.
10. If you're in a group, take leadership, set a good example and do your best to make everyone ride courteously.
11. Pay attention! While it is the responsibility of drivers to avoid hitting you ride defensively to minimize risk!
12. Remember the 5% rule. 5% of drivers are jerks. Don't let that 5% get to you. Take a deep breath and move on.
13. Be friendly. If someone is courteous to you and does the right thing, wave and smile. Everyone likes to be acknowledged for doing the right thing.

Here's some Do's and Don'ts to be a responsible driver.

1. Be courteous and share the road. As a driver you may think the
road belongs to drivers, but nobody owns the road. By law, a bicycle is a vehicle, so treat it like one.
2. Use your turn signals and check your mirrors before making
turns. Cyclists can travel faster than you think.
3. Be patient behind a group of cyclists. If you crack your
window you may hear "car back." That is a signal that cyclists are telling other cyclists to go single file as they know you are behind them.
4. Pass with care. You can legally pass over a double yellow but
you must do so where it is safe. You should leave enough room so that if the cyclist should fall in front of you or swerve to avoid an object, you won't run over them. If there is a collision you could be held liable. Don't "buzz" or drive as close as you can to a cyclist.
It is illegal.
5. Don't drive too closely behind a cyclist as you may not be able
to stop in time if they come off of their bike or adjust to a road hazard abruptly. It would be the exact same as tailgating another driver.
6. Don't use your horn when you are close to the cyclist. This
could cause them to swerve towards your vehicle. Sustained use of the horn is illegal.
7. Exercise caution and be patient. Remember it is your
responsibility to avoid hitting the cyclist, not the responsibility of the cyclist to avoid getting hit by you.
8. Be aware that on downhill sections cyclists can often go faster
than cars through curves. Try to avoid passing on downhill sections unless you have an extended clear line of sight.
9. Remember that cyclists can legally take the entire lane. You
may think that it is a selfish action, but they may be preventing a collision. They really aren't trying to slow you down, sometimes it's just the safest way for them to traverse a section of the road, for example if there is a blind curve, an area where the road narrows or where there is oncoming traffic that you may not see.
10. Be patient. A gain of 30 seconds in your arrival time is not worth seriously injuring or killing someone. A family somewhere is appreciative that their father, son, mother or daughter returns home safely.
11. Pay attention! Don't text or use your cellphone while driving.
Distracted driving places all road users at risk.
12. Remember the 5% rule. 5% of cyclists are jerks. There's nothing you can do about them. Take a deep breath and move on.
13. Be friendly. If someone is courteous to you and does the right thing, wave and smile. Everyone likes to be acknowledged for doing the right thing.

Thanks to everyone who helped put this together. Remember- as an OBRA
racer- help set a good example for everyone!

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Gregg Magnus wrote:
> I don't disagree with your response but I also don't think Susan was
> off the mark either.


Susan Otcenas

2012-02-06

>>Personally I think Susan was reading more into the message than what
was intended.

It would be nice to think so, but judging from all the positive off-list
replies I got after my post, I was clearly not the only one who
interpreted mohair's remarks in that way.

You may know him(?) personally, but I don't know him from Adam. His
statement was condescending.

Cycling is a big tent, with plenty of room for riders of all stripes.
Fast, slow, tall, short, fat, skinny, lycra-clad or tweed-clad. We do
our sport no service when we blame others for weaknesses we fail to see
in ourselves.

Susan
(who needs to put her foot down at stop signs a little more often!)

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Murray
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 12:33 PM
To: remailer, OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation

Interesting that someone could post this it what is likely the least
elitist bike racer market in the country. Personally I think Susan was
reading more into the message than what was intended.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry


Mike Murray

2012-02-06

Couldn't agree more. There are way too many people on bikes that ride inappropriately both in groups or individually, wearing team kits or regular clothes. My point was that calling someone elitist based the info in O'Hair's note is a bit of a stretch. The guy is in his 60s and he has had several strokes. I think he is about as "over himself" as someone can get. It seemed to me that he was making the point that organized teams are more likely to 1) wear team kits and 2) teach members to ride as a group more appropriately. They may also be more likely to read this list serve. This is clearly not universal. There are teams that clog up the road and ride in an irresponsible fashion. There are also groups other than teams that will enforce reasonable group riding behavior.
Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg Magnus
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:51:49
To: ;
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation

I don't disagree with your response but I also don't think Susan was off the mark either. Even though Oregon is a great state and certainly much better overall as far as courtesy, I have seen way too many incidents where folks are riding along and either are so focused on riding hard or engrossed in their conversations that they lose sight of the sharing motorists. Take the Tualatin Tuesday ride an example, terrrible road showing manners, riding 2-4 abreast when that takes 1/2+ of the lane, I love these rides but just hate what some of the partcipants begin to act like during them.

Really what it comes down to is whichever group "we" ride with have to do a better job of policing ourselves and making sure we ride sensibly for the road conditions.

Gregg

> To: obra@list.obra.org
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 20:33:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
>
> Interesting that someone could post this it what is likely the least elitist bike racer market in the country. Personally I think Susan was reading more into the message than what was intended.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Susan Otcenas"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:30:36
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
>
> >> It is very likely that the riders in question were your basic
> "wannabes" and have no idea of how to ride in a group.
>
> Sheesh. Is it any wonder that bike racers have the image of being
> elitist??
>
> A) News flash: most cycling enthisiasts don't "wannabe" a
> team-kit-wearing bike racer. Get over yourself.
>
> B) Being a team-kit-wearing bike racer doesn't mean that you know how to
> ride in a group, as evidenced by the OP's comment:
> >>Then I see a couple of other teams posting ride pictures on Facebook
> with the same issue, taking up the whole road while on a team ride.
>
> C) Not wearing a team kit says nothing at all about whether you know how
> to ride in a group. Most of my non-racer friends are exceptionally
> conscious of and respectful to other road users. We ride two up when
> conditions permit, but single up when cars approach. How do we know
> cars are approaching? Because we wear (gasp!) eyeglass mirrors that
> allow us to see the cars coming from behind well before we could hear
> them over the sound of wind, conversation and other road noise.
>
> Rather than try to shift the blame for such riding behavior onto
> "others", let's acknowledge that everyone in the cycling community could
> do a better job of being respectful of other road users, and thank Scott
> Jones for the reminder.
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


T. Kenji Sugahara

2012-02-06

Here


Gregg Magnus

2012-02-06

I don't disagree with your response but I also don't think Susan was off the mark either. Even though Oregon is a great state and certainly much better overall as far as courtesy, I have seen way too many incidents where folks are riding along and either are so focused on riding hard or engrossed in their conversations that they lose sight of the sharing motorists. Take the Tualatin Tuesday ride an example, terrrible road showing manners, riding 2-4 abreast when that takes 1/2+ of the lane, I love these rides but just hate what some of the partcipants begin to act like during them.

Really what it comes down to is whichever group "we" ride with have to do a better job of policing ourselves and making sure we ride sensibly for the road conditions.

Gregg

> To: obra@list.obra.org
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 20:33:09 +0000
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
>
> Interesting that someone could post this it what is likely the least elitist bike racer market in the country. Personally I think Susan was reading more into the message than what was intended.
>
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Susan Otcenas"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:30:36
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation
>
> >> It is very likely that the riders in question were your basic
> "wannabes" and have no idea of how to ride in a group.
>
> Sheesh. Is it any wonder that bike racers have the image of being
> elitist??
>
> A) News flash: most cycling enthisiasts don't "wannabe" a
> team-kit-wearing bike racer. Get over yourself.
>
> B) Being a team-kit-wearing bike racer doesn't mean that you know how to
> ride in a group, as evidenced by the OP's comment:
> >>Then I see a couple of other teams posting ride pictures on Facebook
> with the same issue, taking up the whole road while on a team ride.
>
> C) Not wearing a team kit says nothing at all about whether you know how
> to ride in a group. Most of my non-racer friends are exceptionally
> conscious of and respectful to other road users. We ride two up when
> conditions permit, but single up when cars approach. How do we know
> cars are approaching? Because we wear (gasp!) eyeglass mirrors that
> allow us to see the cars coming from behind well before we could hear
> them over the sound of wind, conversation and other road noise.
>
> Rather than try to shift the blame for such riding behavior onto
> "others", let's acknowledge that everyone in the cycling community could
> do a better job of being respectful of other road users, and thank Scott
> Jones for the reminder.
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Murray

2012-02-06

Interesting that someone could post this it what is likely the least elitist bike racer market in the country. Personally I think Susan was reading more into the message than what was intended.

Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Susan Otcenas"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:30:36
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation

>> It is very likely that the riders in question were your basic
"wannabes" and have no idea of how to ride in a group.

Sheesh. Is it any wonder that bike racers have the image of being
elitist??

A) News flash: most cycling enthisiasts don't "wannabe" a
team-kit-wearing bike racer. Get over yourself.

B) Being a team-kit-wearing bike racer doesn't mean that you know how to
ride in a group, as evidenced by the OP's comment:
>>Then I see a couple of other teams posting ride pictures on Facebook
with the same issue, taking up the whole road while on a team ride.

C) Not wearing a team kit says nothing at all about whether you know how
to ride in a group. Most of my non-racer friends are exceptionally
conscious of and respectful to other road users. We ride two up when
conditions permit, but single up when cars approach. How do we know
cars are approaching? Because we wear (gasp!) eyeglass mirrors that
allow us to see the cars coming from behind well before we could hear
them over the sound of wind, conversation and other road noise.

Rather than try to shift the blame for such riding behavior onto
"others", let's acknowledge that everyone in the cycling community could
do a better job of being respectful of other road users, and thank Scott
Jones for the reminder.

Susan

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


rondot@spiritone.com

2012-02-06

Well said Susan!
Team Issue Lycra is not the 'giver of all truth or invincible armor', just
as a fixie, messenger bag and no helmet mean the rider is all knowing.
Anyone can ride a bike like an idiot! I say this from first hand
experience....I have ridden like an idiot.
Overall awareness and courtesy for all users of roadways (especially those
heavy ones with fossil and electric power) will help cyclists now and in the
future gain respect from other roadway users.
ron strasser

-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Otcenas
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 9:30 AM
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Group Rides - Observation

>> It is very likely that the riders in question were your basic
"wannabes" and have no idea of how to ride in a group.

Sheesh. Is it any wonder that bike racers have the image of being
elitist??

A) News flash: most cycling enthisiasts don't "wannabe" a
team-kit-wearing bike racer. Get over yourself.

B) Being a team-kit-wearing bike racer doesn't mean that you know how to
ride in a group, as evidenced by the OP's comment:
>>Then I see a couple of other teams posting ride pictures on Facebook
with the same issue, taking up the whole road while on a team ride.

C) Not wearing a team kit says nothing at all about whether you know how
to ride in a group. Most of my non-racer friends are exceptionally
conscious of and respectful to other road users. We ride two up when
conditions permit, but single up when cars approach. How do we know
cars are approaching? Because we wear (gasp!) eyeglass mirrors that
allow us to see the cars coming from behind well before we could hear
them over the sound of wind, conversation and other road noise.

Rather than try to shift the blame for such riding behavior onto
"others", let's acknowledge that everyone in the cycling community could
do a better job of being respectful of other road users, and thank Scott
Jones for the reminder.

Susan

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Susan Otcenas

2012-02-06

>> It is very likely that the riders in question were your basic
"wannabes" and have no idea of how to ride in a group.

Sheesh. Is it any wonder that bike racers have the image of being
elitist??

A) News flash: most cycling enthisiasts don't "wannabe" a
team-kit-wearing bike racer. Get over yourself.

B) Being a team-kit-wearing bike racer doesn't mean that you know how to
ride in a group, as evidenced by the OP's comment:
>>Then I see a couple of other teams posting ride pictures on Facebook
with the same issue, taking up the whole road while on a team ride.

C) Not wearing a team kit says nothing at all about whether you know how
to ride in a group. Most of my non-racer friends are exceptionally
conscious of and respectful to other road users. We ride two up when
conditions permit, but single up when cars approach. How do we know
cars are approaching? Because we wear (gasp!) eyeglass mirrors that
allow us to see the cars coming from behind well before we could hear
them over the sound of wind, conversation and other road noise.

Rather than try to shift the blame for such riding behavior onto
"others", let's acknowledge that everyone in the cycling community could
do a better job of being respectful of other road users, and thank Scott
Jones for the reminder.

Susan