john

Hehehehe I wrote in 2009.. must have been bored (well it was pre-marriage
also..)
http://bikeeng.blogspot.com/2009/02/quick-release-force.html

I too, leave a little bit of tab on.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Rick Johnson wrote:

> < sorry, one last comment >
>
> The obvious answer to the removal of the dropout safety tab (aka lawyer
> tab) is not banning their removal. It is specifying their dimensions
> (specifically height). Had the UCI been more considered in their approach
> they would have instead issued a specification:
>
> 1. A specification brings consistency to the fork manufacturers. All
> forks tabs would become uniform.
> 2. With dimensional uniformity the ramp of the skewer cam becomes the
> determining factor if the release is "quick" or simply "tool less".
> 3. Therefore skewers could be made to two specifications:
> - Standard (aka tool less release) - not having enough opening to
> allow the wheel to come out without further loosing of the skewer nut.
> These would be provided as OEM equipment.
> - Race (aka quick release) - wider opening to clear the standard
> dimensions of the tab. These would be sold optionally for competition use.
>
> The benefits are obvious:
>
> 1. No modifications of the fork would ever be necessary.
> - Warranties would not be affected.
> - Forks previously used in competition would still be appropriate
> for standard uses upon retirement.
> 2. The use of true quick release would be a reversible decision, it
> could be reverted back to standard at anytime by simply swapping the
> skewer.
> 3. Quick release action would be specific only to the wheel fitted
> with the race type skewer.
>
>
> But unfortunately the UCI continues to demonstrate their lack of
> consideration for the sports participants. And so, while the adversarial
> relationship continues nothing improves.
> If anyone thinks they can talk sense to the UCI, and actually have them
> listen, feel free to pass this along.
> ;-)
>
> Rick
>
> --
> Rick Johnson
> Bend Oregon
>
> * * *
>
> This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions
>
>
>
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Rick Johnson

< sorry, one last comment >

The obvious answer to the removal of the dropout safety tab (aka lawyer
tab) is not banning their removal. It is specifying their dimensions
(specifically height). Had the UCI been more considered in their
approach they would have instead issued a specification:

1. A specification brings consistency to the fork manufacturers. All
forks tabs would become uniform.
2. With dimensional uniformity the ramp of the skewer cam becomes the
determining factor if the release is "quick" or simply "tool less".
3. Therefore skewers could be made to two specifications:
* Standard (aka tool less release) - not having enough opening to
allow the wheel to come out without further loosing of the
skewer nut. These would be provided as OEM equipment.
* Race (aka quick release) - wider opening to clear the standard
dimensions of the tab. These would be sold optionally for
competition use.

The benefits are obvious:

1. No modifications of the fork would ever be necessary.
* Warranties would not be affected.
* Forks previously used in competition would still be appropriate
for standard uses upon retirement.
2. The use of true quick release would be a reversible decision, it
could be reverted back to standard at anytime by simply swapping the
skewer.
3. Quick release action would be specific only to the wheel fitted with
the race type skewer.

But unfortunately the UCI continues to demonstrate their lack of
consideration for the sports participants. And so, while the adversarial
relationship continues nothing improves.
If anyone thinks they can talk sense to the UCI, and actually have them
listen, feel free to pass this along.
;-)

Rick

--
Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

Rick Johnson

I guess I should have been more detailed in my response.

I don't remove the tab entirely, just enough so that the wheel can be
removed when the QR cam is to it's fullest open position. If the skewer
is just loose the tab still serves it stated purpose. Effectively this
is the same thing as having a full height tab and a longer throw cam (as
we expect will be the workaround with the UCI regulation).

I also don't remove the tabs on any disc brake application. First there
is the matter of braking force vector being different (debated here
before so I will not embellish). Second, a disc brake will not prevent a
poorly secured wheel from ejecting in the slightest. Both of those
factors add up to a higher risk. However, with any conventional V, canti
or dual pivot brake the brake pad to tire interference already prevents
the wheel from being able to eject in most cases. So the modification of
the tab height changes very little of the safety factor in that
application.

And yes, on my bikes with full height tabs I do count the turns. But
when an 1/8 turn amounts to a significant amount of tension it's still
in inexact process. And one that is still a time consuming, redundant
annoyance.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

On 3/29/2012 7:05 AM, Mike Murray wrote:
> The solution to this problem is to always unwind the skewer a specific number of turns when you take the wheel off. 5 turns will clear the tabs. Then when you put the wheel back on tighten the same number of turns. No adjustment needed.
>
> My expectation is that pro teams will start using releases with larger cams so that the lever throw will clear the tabs defeating their purpose. This is why the new rule is stupid and it joins many of the stupid rules that the UCI has adopted.
>
> BTW, it is an interesting story about how these tabs were forced on the bicycling industry. Personally I think they are a good idea and I leave mine alone.
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Johnson
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:03:35
> To: Erik Voldengen
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

The solution to this problem is to always unwind the skewer a specific number of turns when you take the wheel off. 5 turns will clear the tabs. Then when you put the wheel back on tighten the same number of turns. No adjustment needed.

My expectation is that pro teams will start using releases with larger cams so that the lever throw will clear the tabs defeating their purpose. This is why the new rule is stupid and it joins many of the stupid rules that the UCI has adopted.

BTW, it is an interesting story about how these tabs were forced on the bicycling industry. Personally I think they are a good idea and I leave mine alone.
Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Johnson
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 00:03:35
To: Erik Voldengen
Cc:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs

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Rick Johnson

Since you asked...

Mike was correct about one reason, changing wheels is quicker. But it
goes beyond that with me.
How many times do I take my front wheel off? Every time the bike goes in
the roof rack. Every time I put the bike in the back of the car. Every
time I remove the wheel to check the brake pad condition. Every time I
clean and inspect the bike.

So for each of those times I must readjust the skewer tension because of
the lawyer tabs? Not only is that wasted time it is needless cycles of
re-torquing the quick release mechanism to get the tension just right.
Those do not have in infinite life.

So, yea adios to the lawyer tabs. I trust my work and can tell when my
wheel is properly secure. Anyone who isn't similarly confident should
leave them on.

As for who's judgement I trust more - mine or the UCI - the answer to
that should be obvious.

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

On 3/28/2012 5:44 PM, Erik Voldengen wrote:
> Why would an amateur racer take them off in the first place?
>
>
>
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Jerald Powell

I've seen people screw up tightening the skewer because of the extra step in re-adjusting it to engage the drop-outs

Thom Schoenborn

So I could send them to my lawyer...

----------
Sent from my iPhone.

On Mar 28, 2012, at 5:44 PM, Erik Voldengen wrote:

> Why would an amateur racer take them off in the first place?
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mike Murray

Faster front wheel changes.
Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Erik Voldengen
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 17:44:23
To: obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs

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Erik Voldengen

Why would an amateur racer take them off in the first place?

Rick Johnson

Good, 'cause I cut my lawyer tabs a long time ago!

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

On 3/28/2012 5:39 PM, Mike Murray wrote:
> Why do we care about UCI rules? We don't need no stinkin' UCI.
>
> More seriously, UCI has many rules which OBRA does not accept or apply.
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:38:16
> To: Obra
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

Why do we care about UCI rules? We don't need no stinkin' UCI.

More seriously, UCI has many rules which OBRA does not accept or apply.
Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:38:16
To: Obra
Subject: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs

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Kevin

IMHO a hoax. At best something that has as much evidence showing it doesn't work as it does showing it might provide some benefit.

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs
From: mohair
Date: Wed, 28-Mar-2012 10:41
To: OBRA
CC:

Interesting article. I'm showing my age, but what is "compression wear?"

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mohair

Interesting article. I'm showing my age, but what is "compression wear?"

Rick Johnson

I know the real reason they call them "lawyer tabs". And I swear, this
is a true story!

The answer came to me one day during a bike ride with a friend of mine.
After we had been riding a while she said, "something feels funny with
the front of my bike". I asked her if she checked her tire pressure
before the ride. She said, "of course."
So I said let's stop and I'll have a look. As I grabbed the skewer lever
it spun freely even though it was in the closed position.

Oh, forgot to mention she's also an attorney.

As I tighten up the front skewer I remarked, "and now I know why they
are called lawyer tabs, it's to keep the lawyers from crashing."

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

On 3/28/2012 9:38 AM, leonard@hotfootphoto.com wrote:
> According to Velo News new UCI rules will ban removing lawyer tabs
> and long socks.
> Read the full story:
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/bikes-and-tech/uci-to-require-lawyer-tabs-dictate-camelbak-placement-and-sock-length_209958
> Leonard Johnson
> HotFootPhoto
>
>
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michael medina

Sock length

Glad they are finally showing some sense.

Michael Medina

Buck, Jeffrey A

Had to do a quick check on the calendar. Thought maybe April 1st snuck up, before I realized it.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of leonard@hotfootphoto.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 9:38 AM
To: Obra
Subject: [OBRA Chat] UCI to Require Lawyer Tabs

According to Velo News new UCI rules will ban removing lawyer tabs and long socks.
Read the full story: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/bikes-and-tech/uci-to-require-lawyer-tabs-dictate-camelbak-placement-and-sock-length_209958

Leonard Johnson
HotFootPhoto

Chris Cortez

Can we wear long socks on our hands while we wrestle our wheels out of
the lawyer tabs?

On Mar 28, 2012, at 9:38 AM, wrote:

> According to Velo News new UCI rules will ban removing lawyer tabs
> and long socks.
> Read the full story: http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/03/bikes-and-tech/uci-to-require-lawyer-tabs-dictate-camelbak-placement-and-sock-length_209958
>
> Leonard Johnson
> HotFootPhoto
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

leonard@hotfootphoto.com