As an aside- we you can purchase an IMBA (and/or BTA) membership when
you use our online registration! Pick up an IMBA membership and
deignate a "home" trail alliance when you're registering for a race or
buying a membership!
Easy shmeezy.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 5:42 PM, Brian Baumann wrote:
> Numbers matter.
May 3, 2012, at 4:48 PM, jeff@ultrafreaks.net wrote:
> "The jump between pedestrian and bicycle isn't that all that different than the jump between bicycle and ATV from the perspective of noise, velocity and potential trail impact."
We must have differing perspectives because I see the noise, velocity, and especially trail impact as being much greater with OHV's versus MTB's. There have been studies that show that properly built MTB trails are similar with respects to impact as hiking trails.
I rode in Lake Tahoe and Sedona, AZ last year and was amazed at how friendly the interaction between hikers/runners and MTBer's. Too bad Portland can't follow suit and figure it out. So much for tolerance.
As yes, I belong to the IMBA/NWTA.
Joe
Numbers matter. Instead of buying a family membership to NWTA/IMBA (which counts as "1"), do as I do and sign up family members separately for just a bit more money.
I am happy to see discussion on here about FP. I love the original idea of participating in events by walking bikes. Someone just needs to take the lead and make it happen. NWTA is member-driven. Got an idea? Go for it. The current Board for NWTA is fantastic and they will support good ideas with follow-through. The organization needs fresh ideas and people willing to put a little time in, if you have the time to spare. They are spread pretty thin right now with MEGA projects and events coming up.
See ya at the next meeting. Also, if you have an idea for a meeting topic shoot me an email. I plan and run the meetings.
Cheers!
Brian
________________________________
From: "rondot@spiritone.com"
To: John Bravard ; Obra
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
NO! That point about ATVs is logical in this day.There is not jump
from non-motorized to motorized in the park. That is not going to
happen. That it could not tolerate.
People....Just join NWTA to make the membership # larger!!!!!
It is the right thing to do!
FPC has clout because of size of membership and the public perception that
they want be the caretakers of the park. They do a lot to take care of it,
but if mountain bikers were allowed to “really” be a part of the Parks users,
the volunteer input to take care of well built trails for mountain bikes would
be huge.
It really comes to showing how much we support riding in that park and keep
the pressure on. We can build trail that will hold up even in nasty
weather!
Portland Audubon Society and adjacent landowners of the park are also big
reasons there are little to no access to single-track. Between, FPC, PAS
and the landowners mentioned.........The Portland Parks Departmant get a GREAT
DEAL of well funded lobby pressure. In my opinion an annual membership in
NWTA is a small amount to pay to apply well reasoned pressure for the designated
mountain bike trails that the park can have built with little negative
impact.
NWTA has great T-shirts with a sweet slogan Front
reads “Free Forest Park” back reads “Ride to Where
you ride”.
Advocacy is not just about digging in the dirt..........there are lots of
ways to help get sustainable trail that will in the end make the park more
healthy.
We all ride and the better the infrastructure...the better for the other
users as well.
ron strasser
From: John Bravard
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:50 PM
To: Obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
I don't speak for NWTA or the previous efforts to build singletrack in FP,
but I believe the plan was to build dedicated MTB trails that would avoid the
scenarios described.
Back to my original post. I fully support trail running, hiking, etc. in
FP, but I don't support mtn bikes being shut out by groups that already have
their piece of the pie. It's a shame that a city that touts cycling and
sustainability leaves mtn bikers with no other option than to drive significant
distances out of the city to ride trails.
On May 3, 2012, at 3:09 PM, LORI BRAULT wrote:
I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers runners hikers dogs kids. :(
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net" wrote:
>
>
>As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>>
>>Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
>>
>>Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
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NO! That point about ATVs is logical in this day.There is not jump from non-motorized to motorized in the park. That is not going to happen. That it could not tolerate.
People....Just join NWTA to make the membership # larger!!!!! It is the right thing to do!
FPC has clout because of size of membership and the public perception that they want be the caretakers of the park. They do a lot to take care of it, but if mountain bikers were allowed to “really” be a part of the Parks users, the volunteer input to take care of well built trails for mountain bikes would be huge.
It really comes to showing how much we support riding in that park and keep the pressure on. We can build trail that will hold up even in nasty weather!
Portland Audubon Society and adjacent landowners of the park are also big reasons there are little to no access to single-track. Between, FPC, PAS and the landowners mentioned.........The Portland Parks Departmant get a GREAT DEAL of well funded lobby pressure. In my opinion an annual membership in NWTA is a small amount to pay to apply well reasoned pressure for the designated mountain bike trails that the park can have built with little negative impact.
NWTA has great T-shirts with a sweet slogan Front reads “Free Forest Park” back reads “Ride to Where you ride”.
Advocacy is not just about digging in the dirt..........there are lots of ways to help get sustainable trail that will in the end make the park more healthy.
We all ride and the better the infrastructure...the better for the other users as well.
ron strasser
From: John Bravard
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 4:50 PM
To: Obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
I don't speak for NWTA or the previous efforts to build singletrack in FP, but I believe the plan was to build dedicated MTB trails that would avoid the scenarios described.
Back to my original post. I fully support trail running, hiking, etc. in FP, but I don't support mtn bikes being shut out by groups that already have their piece of the pie. It's a shame that a city that touts cycling and sustainability leaves mtn bikers with no other option than to drive significant distances out of the city to ride trails.
On May 3, 2012, at 3:09 PM, LORI BRAULT wrote:
I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers runners hikers dogs kids. :(
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net" wrote:
As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
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Yeah, it would be interesting to see the numbers for Denver/Front range trail access or for some of the areas in Orange County, CA (Aliso, Whiting, Crystal Cove). The front-range corridor of Colorado (without Boulder/Greeley/Fort Collins) is something like 2.5 million and Orange County is right around 3 million. Miraculously, they manage to simultaneously accomodate hikers and mountain bikers on a good percentage of their trails. Where they can't, the access might be based on calendar day.
i've seen multi-use trails managed. some where it's a certian direction every other day or certian sections alternate between hikers and bikers every other day. personally the wildwood trail doesn't really appeal to me. no real flow. the germantown side would make more sense but it seems there was some concern that the bikes would disturb the elk(?) population or something. i'm with the original post though. i used to donate every year but since stopped when it became obvious the discrimination. i still run and ride there so i guess my hypocrassy is just as bad
I don't speak for NWTA or the previous efforts to build singletrack in FP, but I believe the plan was to build dedicated MTB trails that would avoid the scenarios described.
Back to my original post. I fully support trail running, hiking, etc. in FP, but I don't support mtn bikes being shut out by groups that already have their piece of the pie. It's a shame that a city that touts cycling and sustainability leaves mtn bikers with no other option than to drive significant distances out of the city to ride trails.
On May 3, 2012, at 3:09 PM, LORI BRAULT wrote:
> I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers runners hikers dogs kids. :(
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net" wrote:
>
>> As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Some good points made.
Out of curiosity, could we make the same argument for dedicated trails for OHV's
in Forest Park?
If not, is it because we're being selfish or scared? How about equestrian use?
Why shouldn't horse owners be able to take advantage of the park trail system
as well?
The jump between pedestrian and bicycle isn't that all that different than the
jump between bicycle and ATV from the perspective of noise, velocity and
potential trail impact.
Dedicated mtb trails could work, and it would absolutely change the nature of FP
for those on foot.
Just trying to illustrate that, if you're objective, these decisions are
non-trivial.
On May 3, 2012 at 6:14 PM Shane Young wrote:
>
> It is called a managed forest/park. Directional trails. Single and multi-use
> trails. Why is that so hard? There is enough forest to go around, some people
> are just too selfish or scared.
>
> On May 3, 2012 3:10 PM, "LORI BRAULT" < loribrault@mac.com
> > wrote:
> > I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers
> > runners hikers dogs kids. :(
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, " jeff@ultrafreaks.net
> > " < jeff@ultrafreaks.net
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used
> > > extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many
> > > places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner
> > > headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high
> > > population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at
> > > 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the
> > > riders.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through
> > > stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a
> > > segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride
> > > downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb
> > > riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not
> > > designated for bikes.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and
> > > easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the
> > > park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead
> > > on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally
> > > understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist,
> > > both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to
> > > pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > =?9199184b-b5b7-4444-93fe-b25aad248fdc
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
"The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders,
potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's
assuming the best intent of the riders."
The only place for this to occur is on the fire roads already open to
mountain bikes... Building *dedicated* singletrack for cyclists that
follows the contours and terrain with respectable grades and sightlines
would prevent this completely.
"there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run
shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to
build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on
trails that are not designated for bikes."
This has already been occuring for the last two decades and has diminished
significantly as of late. Building *dedicated* trails for cyclists will
all but completely abolish it.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and
easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the
park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead
on a weekend would attest to that.
Last summer I talked to a PSU grad student collecting data at the Thurman
gate and she suggested of the regular users who drive to the park, an
overwhelming majority of them were pedestrians. The majority of cyclists
driving were non-regular users or from out of town. Of the cyclists who
were regular users, a majority of them rode their bike to the park. (I
can't quote exact numbers or the source at the moment, but you get the
gist...) At the time that didn't include data from Saltzman or any other
gate. Out of all the park entrances that exist, a couple of them could be
used for access to (WAIT FOR IT...) *dedicated* trails for cyclists.
I believe we need to get off this idea of gaining access to existing trails
and move on to building modern trails for modern mountain biking. I
absolutely do not want to bump into pedestrians any more than they want to
meet me. Reclaiming clapped out, old hiking trails is not suitable. And,
no, I'm not suggesting another Sandy Ridge or Whistler, just nice bench cut
singletrack with good sightlines and lots of armoring for the inevitable
mud. I'm okay with seasonal closures too...
-Matt
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:38 PM, jeff@ultrafreaks.net
wrote:
> **
>
> As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used
> extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many
> places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner
> headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high
> population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25
> mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>
>
>
> Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through
> stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a
> segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride
> downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb
> riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not
> designated for bikes.
>
>
>
> Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and
> easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the
> park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead
> on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand
> the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb
> and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but
> I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
I would be more than happy to put a “NO HIKERS” sign up on the mountain bike trails.
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of jeff@ultrafreaks.net
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 2:39 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
Indeed. SLC, Baltimore, Philly, Providence, Pittsburg, Phoenix to name a few. Nearly all of them are bigger cities with smaller parks than Forest Park.
Sean Chaney
p. 503 347.8473
w. Vertigo Cycles
w. Flickr
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of sbohaboy@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 2:52 PM
To: jeff@ultrafreaks.net
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
It seems like other cities (Salt Lake City) are able to work these issues out in an equitable manner than benefit all user groups. Personally, I am sick of the Angry Old Hikers acting like FP is their back yard. Get off my lawn!
_____
From: jeff@ultrafreaks.net
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:38:46 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Agreed, but it's not impossible to manage the trail system, with specific directional and specific trail users indicated. It can work.
And yes, everyone should be a NWTA member: http://nw-trail.org/
AnimationMentor.com
[ ben.fischler@gmail.com ]
On May 3, 2012, at 3:09 PM, LORI BRAULT wrote:
> I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers runners hikers dogs kids.
..."running trails"
I think they're just called "trails". What happened to all the MTB'ers on
this list?
-Fred
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 3:14 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> You mean that the runners would actually have to unplug their ear buds
> and pay attention to what's going on around them?
> I could see that being terrifying for them!
> :-D
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
> One, it's completely impossible.
> Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
> Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
>
> Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
> On 5/3/2012 3:09 PM, LORI BRAULT wrote:
>
> I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers
> runners hikers dogs kids. :(
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net"
> wrote:
>
> As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used
> extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many
> places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner
> headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high
> population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25
> mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>
>
>
> Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through
> stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a
> segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride
> downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb
> riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not
> designated for bikes.
>
>
>
> Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and
> easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the
> park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead
> on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand
> the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb
> and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but
> I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
It is called a managed forest/park. Directional trails. Single and
multi-use trails. Why is that so hard? There is enough forest to go around,
some people are just too selfish or scared.
On May 3, 2012 3:10 PM, "LORI BRAULT" wrote:
> I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers
> runners hikers dogs kids. :(
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net"
> wrote:
>
> As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used
> extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many
> places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner
> headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high
> population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25
> mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>
>
>
> Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through
> stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a
> segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride
> downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb
> riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not
> designated for bikes.
>
>
>
> Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and
> easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the
> park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead
> on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand
> the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb
> and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but
> I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
You mean that the runners would actually have to unplug their ear
buds and pay attention to what's going on around them?
I could see that being terrifying for them!
:-D
Rick Johnson
Bend, OregonEvery revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.Arthur C. Clarke
I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying
with mtn bikers runners hikers dogs kids. :(
Sent from my iPhone
As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park
are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain
is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to
be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite
direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of
runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at
15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best
intent of the riders.
Just as there's a segment of road riders that run
full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and
pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of
mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at
speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb
riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that
are not designated for bikes.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban
environment and easily accessible by a large population.
There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone
that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a
weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally
understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding.
As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an
extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced
that Forest Park is the right place.
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OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
I agree. The running trails would become quite terrifying with mtn bikers runners hikers dogs kids. :(
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net" wrote:
> As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>
>
>
> Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
>
>
>
> Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
On 5/3/2012 2:51 PM, sbohaboy@comcast.net wrote:
> Personally, I am sick of the Angry Old Hikers acting like FP is their
> back yard. Get off my lawn!
That sounds like a description of the modern era Sierra Club too.
Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon
Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
Arthur C. Clarke
It seems like other cities (Salt Lake City) are able to work these issues out in an equitable manner than benefit all user groups. Personally, I am sick of the Angry Old Hikers acting like FP is their back yard. Get off my lawn!
----- Original Message -----
From: jeff@ultrafreaks.net
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 2:38:46 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Forest Park mtb
As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
Certain trails and rules could be established. Mountain bikers and motocross riders at Browns Camp rarely ever see each other. A trail system devolved properly to suit both needs. And for the few that don't follow the rules, well that's everywhere. Such as life. But the restrict to only hikers is lunacy!
Sent from my iPhone
On May 3, 2012, at 2:38 PM, "jeff@ultrafreaks.net" wrote:
> As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's assuming the best intent of the riders.
>
>
>
> Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed, freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
>
>
>
> Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced that Forest Park is the right place.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
As a counterpoint, the fire roads and trails in Forest Park are used extensively
by hikers/runners/walkers. The terrain is steep in many places, and as a runner
it's not unusual to be surprised by another runner headed in the opposite
direction. The thought of co-mingling a high population of runners with mtb
riders, potentially riding downhill at 15-25 mph, is concerning. And that's
assuming the best intent of the riders.
Just as there's a segment of road riders that run full-speed through stops, ride
three abreast in traffic, and pee on stuff, there will be a segment, probably
larger, of mtb riders that will run shuttles and ride downhill bikes at speed,
freeriders that will try to build structures, mtb riders that will blaze new
trails and/or ride on trails that are not designated for bikes.
Forest Park, obviously, is in the midst of a highly urban environment and easily
accessible by a large population. There's a lot of pressure on the park
already; anyone that's tried to find parking near the Leif trailhead on a
weekend would attest to that. As a trail runner, I totally understand the
reticence to open up the park to mtb riding. As a cyclist, both mtb and road, I
wish we did have an extensive trail system close to pdx, but I'm not convinced
that Forest Park is the right place.
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