Elise Huggins

Candi et al -
Thank you for this informative discussion about women's racing! I agree with Mike and Susan - we need to be realistic about the number of women we can expect at each race given the total number of women in OBRA. If 10-20% is typical, than 7-14 riders is what promoters should anticipate. Anything above that is gravy! This is a place where OBRA can advocate for women with promoters. A promoter should be encouraged (expected?) by OBRA to offer womens races EVEN though the numbers are lower. Title IX was enacted to ensure that colleges and universities offer equal opportunity to men and women. While OBRA does not receive federal funds and therefore does not fall under pervue of Title IX, it would be great to see the governing body of cycling in Oregon advocate for equal opportunity with promoters.

Regarding pre-registration -- does pre-registration predict field size? Just wondering. Candi - do we have any numbers on this?

Unfortunately I missed pre-registration for Montinore by 2 min. I will be at Montinore on Sunday!

Thanks everyone!
Elise

Elise M. Huggins, PhD Education Consultant 503.331.9868 (home office) 503.577.9985 (cell) elisehuggins@msn.com

> To: obra@list.obra.org
> From: mike.murray@obra.org
> Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 23:09:16 +0000
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] [OBRA Women] Calling Cat 1/2/3 women
>
> Susan's note gets to the whole point. In general only 10-20% of the available market will go to any race. For women 1/2/3 that means 7-14 riders is a good turn out. Ultimately the problem is that the majority of women are Cat 4/5. If more women upgraded then there would be more women at Cat 1/2/3 races.
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerr
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Susan Otcenas"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:15:18
> To:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] [OBRA Women] Calling Cat 1/2/3 women
>
>
> Leia wrote: >>Giro di Portlandia had a woman's field this last year ....
> the field only ended up with 19 woman ! That is less then a third of the
> 1/2/3 woman in OBRA in the Portland area.
>
> Candi wrote: >> There are almost 70 Cat 1/2/3 women north of Corvallis.
>
> Candi or Kenji:
>
> What percentage of MALE 1/2/3s show up for any given race?
>
> What I'm getting at is that, as Candi pointed out, there are (only) 70
> 1/2/3 women in the northern part of the state. To get a field of 35
> women, fully HALF of the qualified women would need to turn up. Is it
> realistic to expect that 50% of the women would turn out for any one
> race? (I don't know, I'm just asking.) Do 50% of the men in any given
> category show up at each race? (I'm thinking no, but I'm just
> guessing.)
>
> The pool of racers in any given category that the men are pulling from
> is so much larger than the pool of women in a given category. So, it
> seems to follow that a much smaller % of qualified men need to turn up
> to get a big field. If women are showing up in the same proportions as
> men, relative to the # in any given category, then the problem is not
> that women aren't showing up. The problem would be that there just
> aren't that many women in those categories to draw from.
>
> Just a thought. Am I way off base or is this a possible explanation?
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jessica Kaplan

I have to agree with Karey that I really like when there is a
pre-registered riders list. I get much more excited about a race knowing
who is going to be there and that there will be a decent turnout. It has
sometimes felt like a gamble in the past because you might show up to a
race and there could only be 6 other women.

Cheryl - Is there a way to get to the pre-registered riders list for a
specific race without having to be given the link directly? Is this
currently something that promoters have to just put on their flyers? I've
looked for this in the past on the OBRA site and have never found it. If it
does exist on the OBRA site, it is not obvious how to get there.

Jessica

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Mike Murray wrote:

> Susan's note gets to the whole point. In general only 10-20% of the
> available market will go to any race. For women 1/2/3 that means 7-14
> riders is a good turn out. Ultimately the problem is that the majority of
> women are Cat 4/5. If more women upgraded then there would be more women at
> Cat 1/2/3 races.
> Mike Murray
> Sent via BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Susan Otcenas"
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:15:18
> To:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] [OBRA Women] Calling Cat 1/2/3 women
>
>
> Leia wrote: >>Giro di Portlandia had a woman's field this last year ....
> the field only ended up with 19 woman ! That is less then a third of the
> 1/2/3 woman in OBRA in the Portland area.
>
> Candi wrote: >> There are almost 70 Cat 1/2/3 women north of Corvallis.
>
> Candi or Kenji:
>
> What percentage of MALE 1/2/3s show up for any given race?
>
> What I'm getting at is that, as Candi pointed out, there are (only) 70
> 1/2/3 women in the northern part of the state. To get a field of 35
> women, fully HALF of the qualified women would need to turn up. Is it
> realistic to expect that 50% of the women would turn out for any one
> race? (I don't know, I'm just asking.) Do 50% of the men in any given
> category show up at each race? (I'm thinking no, but I'm just
> guessing.)
>
> The pool of racers in any given category that the men are pulling from
> is so much larger than the pool of women in a given category. So, it
> seems to follow that a much smaller % of qualified men need to turn up
> to get a big field. If women are showing up in the same proportions as
> men, relative to the # in any given category, then the problem is not
> that women aren't showing up. The problem would be that there just
> aren't that many women in those categories to draw from.
>
> Just a thought. Am I way off base or is this a possible explanation?
>
> Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

Susan's note gets to the whole point. In general only 10-20% of the available market will go to any race. For women 1/2/3 that means 7-14 riders is a good turn out. Ultimately the problem is that the majority of women are Cat 4/5. If more women upgraded then there would be more women at Cat 1/2/3 races.
Mike Murray
Sent via BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: "Susan Otcenas"
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 13:15:18
To:
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] [OBRA Women] Calling Cat 1/2/3 women

Leia wrote: >>Giro di Portlandia had a woman's field this last year ....
the field only ended up with 19 woman ! That is less then a third of the
1/2/3 woman in OBRA in the Portland area.

Candi wrote: >> There are almost 70 Cat 1/2/3 women north of Corvallis.

Candi or Kenji:

What percentage of MALE 1/2/3s show up for any given race?

What I'm getting at is that, as Candi pointed out, there are (only) 70
1/2/3 women in the northern part of the state. To get a field of 35
women, fully HALF of the qualified women would need to turn up. Is it
realistic to expect that 50% of the women would turn out for any one
race? (I don't know, I'm just asking.) Do 50% of the men in any given
category show up at each race? (I'm thinking no, but I'm just
guessing.)

The pool of racers in any given category that the men are pulling from
is so much larger than the pool of women in a given category. So, it
seems to follow that a much smaller % of qualified men need to turn up
to get a big field. If women are showing up in the same proportions as
men, relative to the # in any given category, then the problem is not
that women aren't showing up. The problem would be that there just
aren't that many women in those categories to draw from.

Just a thought. Am I way off base or is this a possible explanation?

Susan

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Heather VanValkenburg

This is true. I have been denied a refund after pre- registration. I am
hesitant as well, unless the in a financial incentive to pre- register. I
have promoted a race too, so I understand that it's frustrating to not know
how many to expect. But once you've been burned in the "we're-not refunding
your money" situation, it makes pre-registration less risk free.

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:43 AM, LORI BRAULT wrote:

> I preregistered for PIECE of CAKE and Hugh Givens did not refund me when I
> couldn't attend so I will not preregister for any races except the TTs.
>
> Lori Brault
>
>
> On May 04, 2012, at 10:15 AM, Jan Moss wrote:
>
>
> I don't think anyone will argue that I do my fair share of women's races
> and have for several years. Over the years I have seen huge fields and I
> have seen embarassingly small fields. I have always struggled with the
> question "where are the women?" I've heard it all, "I don't want to race
> with the 4's", "I don't want to race with the 1/2's" "I want to race
> Masters", "I don't race in rain, heat, wind" etc..... to all of these I
> have always said that we can not demand "fair" treatment if we do not
> consistently show up. No, I'm not saying 50-75 riders each race, like men,
> but if the senior women consistently had 25 women, we would not be having
> this discussion. I have never been able to figure out why our race numbers
> fluctuate so. There are many teams in OR with women racers. I agree that we
> could be much more competitive. But that means that the women on those
> teams need to consistently race with each other. In order to work as a
> team, you need to race as a team. I struggle with this on my own team, so I
> know this is not easy to accomplish. I race a lot in WA and let me tell you
> it is expected that you will race often with your teammates. It shows. The
> teams in WA are much more tactical. I don't think we need special
> mentoriing or training, we just need time in the saddle during races.
> Regarding the recent races. I have always done the Eugene Roubaix. Weeks
> ago (before the big brew-ha-ha on OBRA) i emailed the promoter to ask why
> there was no women's field. I got NO response. That is unacceptable, I
> should have received a response. Then there was the public outcry. Even
> then, when a women's field was posted the promoter did not encourage women
> to attend (in my opinion), it was more like he was forced to do it. I think
> he should have offered a reason for the omission in the first place an
> apology and an invitation to race. I chose (correctly in my mind) to go to
> a race that was guaranteed to have a huge competitive field in WA. I do not
> often do this, I usually choose to race in OR, but when a promoter is
> obviously not interested in my participation, I go elsewhere.
> Regarding this weekend, I was planning on doing the race. The original
> flyer had the women racing in the afternoon. I made plans for Sunday
> morning. The race was changed. I emailed Jeff directly to let him know this
> meant that I was not coming. (not that my lack of attendance breaks his
> heart, but maybe he'll realize the impact of changing times)
> Lastly, regarding pre-registration. Come on ladies step up. Every race
> that I can tell offers a refund if you are sick or injured, so the excuse
> of waiting until the day of race is moot. The process is simple and it is
> polite. If I was a promoter trying to figure out porta-potties, volunteers,
> etc.... I would want to know if people were coming or not. This takes a bit
> of forethought on your part, but do it. Racing is fun, but I believe if we,
> the women of OBRA, do not continue to show up to prove our interest, we
> really have no leg to stand on to demand anything. I would certainly hate
> to see it go away..... then what would I do?
> Hope to see more of you out there suffering with me.
>
>
> On Fri 04/05/12 08:25 , "Candi Murray" cmurray@obra.org sent:
>
> Ladies
> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to
> offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park
> and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past.
> Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women 1/2/3
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA_Women mailing list
> OBRA_Women@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra_women
>
>

--
-Heather VanValkenburg
"If you want to achieve triumph, you have to try a little umph!" -unknown

Susan Otcenas

Leia wrote: >>Giro di Portlandia had a woman's field this last year ....
the field only ended up with 19 woman ! That is less then a third of the
1/2/3 woman in OBRA in the Portland area.

Candi wrote: >> There are almost 70 Cat 1/2/3 women north of Corvallis.

Candi or Kenji:

What percentage of MALE 1/2/3s show up for any given race?

What I'm getting at is that, as Candi pointed out, there are (only) 70
1/2/3 women in the northern part of the state. To get a field of 35
women, fully HALF of the qualified women would need to turn up. Is it
realistic to expect that 50% of the women would turn out for any one
race? (I don't know, I'm just asking.) Do 50% of the men in any given
category show up at each race? (I'm thinking no, but I'm just
guessing.)

The pool of racers in any given category that the men are pulling from
is so much larger than the pool of women in a given category. So, it
seems to follow that a much smaller % of qualified men need to turn up
to get a big field. If women are showing up in the same proportions as
men, relative to the # in any given category, then the problem is not
that women aren't showing up. The problem would be that there just
aren't that many women in those categories to draw from.

Just a thought. Am I way off base or is this a possible explanation?

Susan

Leia Tyrrell

I'm going to have to put my two bits in about this topic...

I personally have always been confused by the lack of woman that show
up to races, even those races that offer great prizes and work hard to
placate us. The first year of the Longview Criterium, there were only
about 6 woman in the field, even though the prize money was great.
Giro di Portlandia had a woman's field this last year with amazing
payout, hundreds of dollars, and the field only ended up with 19 woman
! That is less then a third of the 1/2/3 woman in OBRA in the Portland
area. I have to say I understand why promoters get fed up. Lots of
complaining about lack of fields, prizes, length of races ect... and
then when the promoter does something about it, no one shows up.

Let's show them that we care and race.
I will be at Montinore tomorrow as well, I am volunteering so I do not
show up on the pre-reg list.

Cheers,

Leia
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Cheryl Willson wrote:
> FWIW, you _can_ see who has pre-registered. Scott added this fairly
> recently.
>
> For Montinore:
> http://obra.org/events/20541
>
> For Coast Hills:
> http://obra.org/events/20329
>
> I'll work to encourage promoters to add the link to their race flyers.
>
> Cheryl
>
>
>
> On May 4, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Karey Swan wrote:
>
> Thanks for all your comments!

Cheryl Willson

FWIW, you _can_ see who has pre-registered. Scott added this fairly recently.

For Montinore:
http://obra.org/events/20541

For Coast Hills:
http://obra.org/events/20329

I'll work to encourage promoters to add the link to their race flyers.

Cheryl

On May 4, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Karey Swan wrote:

> Thanks for all your comments! This is great to hear!
>
> Regarding the pre-reg - I was just using that as an example. I, personally, don't care about the $$$ or getting refunded - I have lost many race fees due to one reason or another - it's just part of the game. I think maybe if it was known that it helps the promotors plan/prepare for the race that this might influence pre-registration. Not everyone understands this concept and figures it's just as easy to reg on the day of.
>
> Another thing to note is that when I first started racing, you could always see you was preregistered. I understand that this is not a platform we have available (yet) for registering through the OBRA site - but I know that when I would go to register, I would get pretty amped up to see a list of women start to form and get more excited about who was going to be there when I knew the field size was growing for any particular race. This also lends a bit to competition and things like that. Just a thought....Not that it would make a huge difference on whether people pre-reg'd but it made a difference to me.
>
> Karey
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Cheryl Willson wrote:
> Some (but not all) promoters are quite generous in their refund policies.
>
> On May 4, 2012, at 10:25 AM, matt Savage wrote:
>
>> 'In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams headed over that are in the same boat. "
>>
>> Regarding preregistration... If you have 5-6 racers who intend to race on Sunday and say there are 3-4 others teams in the same boat, then why not just preregister? That's up to 30 people who are now on the list to race and that's really useful data for the promoters and OBRA to use to plan effectively for this race and future races. It shows intent on the part of the racers and allows promoters to gauge interest. Who cares about the fees...? I view the preregistration discount as less an incentive to just get people to race as it is an incentive to get people to preregister for the above mentioned reasons.
>>
>> So you get sick, or get a flat on the drive to the race and missed your start, so you're out 28 bucks... Chock it up to a dnf, as if you had a mechanical in the first mile or cramped or crashed and had to drop out. Same thing, you didn't finish... Don't worry about the money. There's more to prereg than just saving us a couple bucks. My two cents... And sorry for being a fella and chiming in, but I think this issue spans all genders and CAT's.
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Karey Swan wrote:
>> Hi Candi and all,
>>
>> This is definitely a loaded question and one that our team has talked about at length. We have noticed that it is becoming more and more difficult for women to race in Oregon. As you mentioned, more fields are being cut and the race distances are being shortened due to time/course/supprt constraints. Many times when a race promotor puts on a race he/she has no choice but to leave out or combine certain fields because of these limitations.
>>
>> The other aspect that we have talked about is that, because there are just not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on the race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so the field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer, they may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing). This means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races - and this stems to a lack of large field sizes in the womens fields.
>>
>> Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is to get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm wondering if a shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best bet. By this, i mean to offer a more limited run of races that have womens fields, but makes sure to let everyone know in plenty of advance which races may not offer a woman's field. If this was the case, yes, there would be less races for women to have their own race, but if these are excellent courses and good distances, they would draw a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less may be better.
>>
>> In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams headed over that are in the same boat.
>>
>> Anyway, take it for what it is - I'd love to hear other women's feed back. I strongly promote beginners racing and mentoring and having fields available to everyone as well as Elite level racing - but in this case where we are dealing with smaller fields, I do think that less races on the calendar would result in larger field sizes. I think it would also be wise to look at when these races are offered (as far as promoting goes) because a lot of the 1/2/3 women attend larger races throughout Washington and Northern Cal, which I also think is great!
>>
>> Thanks
>> Karey Swan
>> Director - WCWC Team p/b Ninkasi
>> 541.556.0454
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray wrote:
>> Ladies
>>
>> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past. Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women 1/2/3.
>>
>> We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out. But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning out?
>>
>> This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and currently there are 1 Cat

Melissa Boyd

First of all, I'd like to say that I'd love to race Monitmore if I could be
there.

However, I will be at Coast Hills Classic. I want to personally thank the
Coast Hills organizers for offering EQUAL FIELDS for men and women. Come
on, how often have you seen a cat-2 55+ class or a Clydesdale (Athena)
class for the women?? This sort of support for the women is wonderful, and
I'd like to encourage all the women mountain bikers to turn out in support!

Personally, when I have to choose between races I choose to support the
races that support the masters women. If more of us would show up we'd have
better fields, better races, and happier promoters too.

Melissa

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray wrote:

> Ladies****
>
> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to
> offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park
> and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past.
> Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women
> 1/2/3.****
>
> We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race
> organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into
> the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out.
> But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning
> out?****
>
> This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and
> currently there are 1 Cat

Karey Swan

Thanks for all your comments! This is great to hear!

Regarding the pre-reg - I was just using that as an example. I,
personally, don't care about the $$$ or getting refunded - I have lost many
race fees due to one reason or another - it's just part of the game. I
think maybe if it was known that it helps the promotors plan/prepare for
the race that this might influence pre-registration. Not everyone
understands this concept and figures it's just as easy to reg on the day
of.

Another thing to note is that when I first started racing, you could always
see you was preregistered. I understand that this is not a platform we
have available (yet) for registering through the OBRA site - but I know
that when I would go to register, I would get pretty amped up to see a list
of women start to form and get more excited about who was going to be there
when I knew the field size was growing for any particular race. This also
lends a bit to competition and things like that. Just a thought....Not
that it would make a huge difference on whether people pre-reg'd but it
made a difference to me.

Karey

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Cheryl Willson wrote:

> Some (but not all) promoters are quite generous in their refund policies.
>
> On May 4, 2012, at 10:25 AM, matt Savage wrote:
>
> 'In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is
> another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I
> mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think
> it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I
> don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you
> register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it
> ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing
> on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams
> headed over that are in the same boat. "
>
> Regarding preregistration... If you have 5-6 racers who *intend* to race
> on Sunday and say there are 3-4 others teams in the same boat, then why not
> just preregister? That's up to 30 people who are now on the list to race
> and that's really useful data for the promoters and OBRA to use to plan
> effectively for this race and future races. It shows intent on the part of
> the racers and allows promoters to gauge interest. Who cares about the
> fees...? I view the preregistration discount as less an incentive to just
> get people to race as it is an incentive to get people to preregister for
> the above mentioned reasons.
>
> So you get sick, or get a flat on the drive to the race and missed your
> start, so you're out 28 bucks... Chock it up to a dnf, as if you had a
> mechanical in the first mile or cramped or crashed and had to drop out.
> Same thing, you didn't finish... Don't worry about the money. There's
> more to prereg than just saving us a couple bucks. My two cents... And
> sorry for being a fella and chiming in, but I think this issue spans all
> genders and CAT's.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Karey Swan wrote:
>
>> Hi Candi and all,
>>
>> This is definitely a loaded question and one that our team has talked
>> about at length. We have noticed that it is becoming more and more
>> difficult for women to race in Oregon. As you mentioned, more fields are
>> being cut and the race distances are being shortened due to
>> time/course/supprt constraints. Many times when a race promotor puts on a
>> race he/she has no choice but to leave out or combine certain fields
>> because of these limitations.
>>
>> The other aspect that we have talked about is that, because there are
>> just not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on
>> the race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so
>> the field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer,
>> they may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing).
>> This means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races
>> - and this stems to a lack of large field sizes in the womens fields.
>>
>> Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is to
>> get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm wondering if a
>> shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best bet. By this, i mean
>> to offer a more limited run of races that have womens fields, but makes
>> sure to let everyone know in plenty of advance which races may not offer a
>> woman's field. If this was the case, yes, there would be less races for
>> women to have their own race, but if these are excellent courses and good
>> distances, they would draw a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less
>> may be better.
>>
>> In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is
>> another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I
>> mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think
>> it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I
>> don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you
>> register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it
>> ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing
>> on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams
>> headed over that are in the same boat.
>>
>> Anyway, take it for what it is - I'd love to hear other women's feed
>> back. I strongly promote beginners racing and mentoring and having fields
>> available to everyone as well as Elite level racing - but in this case
>> where we are dealing with smaller fields, I do think that less races on the
>> calendar would result in larger field sizes. I think it would also be wise
>> to look at when these races are offered (as far as promoting goes) because
>> a lot of the 1/2/3 women attend larger races throughout Washington and
>> Northern Cal, which I also think is great!
>>
>> Thanks
>> Karey Swan
>> Director - WCWC Team p/b Ninkasi
>> 541.556.0454
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray wrote:
>>
>>> Ladies****
>>>
>>> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to
>>> offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park
>>> and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past.
>>> Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women
>>> 1/2/3.****
>>>
>>> We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race
>>> organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into
>>> the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out.
>>> But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning
>>> out?****
>>>
>>> This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and
>>> currently there are 1 Cat

Rick Johnson

Or the promoter could follow Petr's example (Bear Springs Trap MTB). He
won't cash your check if you don't show up. In fact he requires no money
to preregister at all.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

On 5/4/2012 10:25 AM, matt Savage wrote:
> So you get sick, or get a flat on the drive to the race and missed
> your start, so you're out 28 bucks...

Cheryl Willson

Some (but not all) promoters are quite generous in their refund policies.

On May 4, 2012, at 10:25 AM, matt Savage wrote:

> 'In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams headed over that are in the same boat. "
>
> Regarding preregistration... If you have 5-6 racers who intend to race on Sunday and say there are 3-4 others teams in the same boat, then why not just preregister? That's up to 30 people who are now on the list to race and that's really useful data for the promoters and OBRA to use to plan effectively for this race and future races. It shows intent on the part of the racers and allows promoters to gauge interest. Who cares about the fees...? I view the preregistration discount as less an incentive to just get people to race as it is an incentive to get people to preregister for the above mentioned reasons.
>
> So you get sick, or get a flat on the drive to the race and missed your start, so you're out 28 bucks... Chock it up to a dnf, as if you had a mechanical in the first mile or cramped or crashed and had to drop out. Same thing, you didn't finish... Don't worry about the money. There's more to prereg than just saving us a couple bucks. My two cents... And sorry for being a fella and chiming in, but I think this issue spans all genders and CAT's.
>
> -Matt
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Karey Swan wrote:
> Hi Candi and all,
>
> This is definitely a loaded question and one that our team has talked about at length. We have noticed that it is becoming more and more difficult for women to race in Oregon. As you mentioned, more fields are being cut and the race distances are being shortened due to time/course/supprt constraints. Many times when a race promotor puts on a race he/she has no choice but to leave out or combine certain fields because of these limitations.
>
> The other aspect that we have talked about is that, because there are just not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on the race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so the field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer, they may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing). This means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races - and this stems to a lack of large field sizes in the womens fields.
>
> Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is to get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm wondering if a shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best bet. By this, i mean to offer a more limited run of races that have womens fields, but makes sure to let everyone know in plenty of advance which races may not offer a woman's field. If this was the case, yes, there would be less races for women to have their own race, but if these are excellent courses and good distances, they would draw a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less may be better.
>
> In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams headed over that are in the same boat.
>
> Anyway, take it for what it is - I'd love to hear other women's feed back. I strongly promote beginners racing and mentoring and having fields available to everyone as well as Elite level racing - but in this case where we are dealing with smaller fields, I do think that less races on the calendar would result in larger field sizes. I think it would also be wise to look at when these races are offered (as far as promoting goes) because a lot of the 1/2/3 women attend larger races throughout Washington and Northern Cal, which I also think is great!
>
> Thanks
> Karey Swan
> Director - WCWC Team p/b Ninkasi
> 541.556.0454
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray wrote:
> Ladies
>
> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past. Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women 1/2/3.
>
> We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out. But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning out?
>
> This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and currently there are 1 Cat

matt Savage

'In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is
another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I
mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think
it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I
don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you
register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it
ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing
on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams
headed over that are in the same boat. "

Regarding preregistration... If you have 5-6 racers who *intend* to race
on Sunday and say there are 3-4 others teams in the same boat, then why not
just preregister? That's up to 30 people who are now on the list to race
and that's really useful data for the promoters and OBRA to use to plan
effectively for this race and future races. It shows intent on the part of
the racers and allows promoters to gauge interest. Who cares about the
fees...? I view the preregistration discount as less an incentive to just
get people to race as it is an incentive to get people to preregister for
the above mentioned reasons.

So you get sick, or get a flat on the drive to the race and missed your
start, so you're out 28 bucks... Chock it up to a dnf, as if you had a
mechanical in the first mile or cramped or crashed and had to drop out.
Same thing, you didn't finish... Don't worry about the money. There's
more to prereg than just saving us a couple bucks. My two cents... And
sorry for being a fella and chiming in, but I think this issue spans all
genders and CAT's.

-Matt

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Karey Swan wrote:

> Hi Candi and all,
>
> This is definitely a loaded question and one that our team has talked
> about at length. We have noticed that it is becoming more and more
> difficult for women to race in Oregon. As you mentioned, more fields are
> being cut and the race distances are being shortened due to
> time/course/supprt constraints. Many times when a race promotor puts on a
> race he/she has no choice but to leave out or combine certain fields
> because of these limitations.
>
> The other aspect that we have talked about is that, because there are just
> not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on the
> race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so the
> field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer, they
> may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing). This
> means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races - and
> this stems to a lack of large field sizes in the womens fields.
>
> Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is to
> get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm wondering if a
> shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best bet. By this, i mean
> to offer a more limited run of races that have womens fields, but makes
> sure to let everyone know in plenty of advance which races may not offer a
> woman's field. If this was the case, yes, there would be less races for
> women to have their own race, but if these are excellent courses and good
> distances, they would draw a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less
> may be better.
>
> In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is
> another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I
> mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think
> it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I
> don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you
> register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it
> ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing
> on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams
> headed over that are in the same boat.
>
> Anyway, take it for what it is - I'd love to hear other women's feed back.
> I strongly promote beginners racing and mentoring and having fields
> available to everyone as well as Elite level racing - but in this case
> where we are dealing with smaller fields, I do think that less races on the
> calendar would result in larger field sizes. I think it would also be wise
> to look at when these races are offered (as far as promoting goes) because
> a lot of the 1/2/3 women attend larger races throughout Washington and
> Northern Cal, which I also think is great!
>
> Thanks
> Karey Swan
> Director - WCWC Team p/b Ninkasi
> 541.556.0454
>
>
> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray wrote:
>
>> Ladies****
>>
>> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to
>> offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park
>> and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past.
>> Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women
>> 1/2/3.****
>>
>> We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race
>> organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into
>> the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out.
>> But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning
>> out?****
>>
>> This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and
>> currently there are 1 Cat

Rick Johnson

On 5/4/2012 9:25 AM, Karey Swan wrote:
>
> Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is
> to get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm
> wondering if a shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best
> bet. By this, i mean to offer a more limited run of races that have
> womens fields, but makes sure to let everyone know in plenty of
> advance which races may not offer a woman's field. If this was the
> case, yes, there would be less races for women to have their own race,
> but if these are excellent courses and good distances, they would draw
> a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less may be better.

Interesting observation and creative solution. I think the idea of a
"women's series" approach has merit.

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

Jan Moss

I don't think anyone will argue that I do my fair share of women's
races and have for several years. Over the years I have seen huge
fields and I have seen embarassingly small fields. I have always
struggled with the question "where are the women?" I've heard it all,
"I don't want to race with the 4's", "I don't want to race with the
1/2's" "I want to race Masters", "I don't race in rain, heat, wind"
etc..... to all of these I have always said that we can not demand
"fair" treatment if we do not consistently show up. No, I'm not
saying 50-75 riders each race, like men, but if the senior women
consistently had 25 women, we would not be having this discussion. I
have never been able to figure out why our race numbers fluctuate so.

There are many teams in OR with women racers. I agree that we could
be much more competitive. But that means that the women on those
teams need to consistently race with each other. In order to work as
a team, you need to race as a team. I struggle with this on my own
team, so I know this is not easy to accomplish. I race a lot in WA
and let me tell you it is expected that you will race often with your
teammates. It shows. The teams in WA are much more tactical. I don't
think we need special mentoriing or training, we just need time in
the saddle during races.

Regarding the recent races. I have always done the Eugene Roubaix.
Weeks ago (before the big brew-ha-ha on OBRA) i emailed the promoter
to ask why there was no women's field. I got NO response. That is
unacceptable, I should have received a response. Then there was the
public outcry. Even then, when a women's field was posted the
promoter did not encourage women to attend (in my opinion), it was
more like he was forced to do it. I think he should have offered a
reason for the omission in the first place an apology and an
invitation to race. I chose (correctly in my mind) to go to a race
that was guaranteed to have a huge competitive field in WA. I do not
often do this, I usually choose to race in OR, but when a promoter is
obviously not interested in my participation, I go elsewhere.

Regarding this weekend, I was planning on doing the race. The
original flyer had the women racing in the afternoon. I made plans
for Sunday morning. The race was changed. I emailed Jeff directly to
let him know this meant that I was not coming. (not that my lack of
attendance breaks his heart, but maybe he'll realize the impact of
changing times)

Lastly, regarding pre-registration. Come on ladies step up. Every
race that I can tell offers a refund if you are sick or injured, so
the excuse of waiting until the day of race is moot. The process is
simple and it is polite. If I was a promoter trying to figure out
porta-potties, volunteers, etc.... I would want to know if people
were coming or not. This takes a bit of forethought on your part, but
do it.

Racing is fun, but I believe if we, the women of OBRA, do not
continue to show up to prove our interest, we really have no leg to
stand on to demand anything. I would certainly hate to see it go
away..... then what would I do?

Hope to see more of you out there suffering with me.
On Fri 04/05/12 08:25 , "Candi Murray" cmurray@obra.org sent:
Ladies

I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields
to offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the
approving park and started to trim all fields that have had a small
showing in the past. Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next
smallest field was the women 1/2/3.

We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage
race organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get
them into the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split
the Women 3 out. But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the
very top are not turning out?

This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration
and currently there are 1 Cat ½ women and 2 Cat 3 women signed up.
Where are you all? The time, money and energy to put on the events
and offer you separate fields seems to be slipping away and unless
you all become much more proactive I fear that the Cat 1/2/3 women
fields will all be combined with the men.

Let’s not let this happen. There are almost 70 Cat 1/2/3 women
north of Corvallis. Why are there only 3 signed up for the Monitmore
race?

Candi

Leibowitz, Flo

Karey, I think you have hit on something really key here.

".... because there are just not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on the race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so the field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer, they may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing). This means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races..."

I am not in the 1/2/3 field. But if I were, this would ring a very loud bell. In a way, OBRA has been SO successful with promoting races, that its success here is ironically creating this situation.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Karey Swan
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2012 9:26 AM
To: cmurray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; obra_women@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] [OBRA Women] Calling Cat 1/2/3 women

Hi Candi and all,

This is definitely a loaded question and one that our team has talked about at length. We have noticed that it is becoming more and more difficult for women to race in Oregon. As you mentioned, more fields are being cut and the race distances are being shortened due to time/course/supprt constraints. Many times when a race promotor puts on a race he/she has no choice but to leave out or combine certain fields because of these limitations.

The other aspect that we have talked about is that, because there are just not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on the race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so the field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer, they may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing). This means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races - and this stems to a lack of large field sizes in the womens fields.

Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is to get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm wondering if a shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best bet. By this, i mean to offer a more limited run of races that have womens fields, but makes sure to let everyone know in plenty of advance which races may not offer a woman's field. If this was the case, yes, there would be less races for women to have their own race, but if these are excellent courses and good distances, they would draw a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less may be better.

In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams headed over that are in the same boat.

Anyway, take it for what it is - I'd love to hear other women's feed back. I strongly promote beginners racing and mentoring and having fields available to everyone as well as Elite level racing - but in this case where we are dealing with smaller fields, I do think that less races on the calendar would result in larger field sizes. I think it would also be wise to look at when these races are offered (as far as promoting goes) because a lot of the 1/2/3 women attend larger races throughout Washington and Northern Cal, which I also think is great!

Thanks
Karey Swan
Director - WCWC Team p/b Ninkasi
541.556.0454

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray > wrote:
Ladies
I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past. Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women 1/2/3.
We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out. But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning out?
This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and currently there are 1 Cat

Karey Swan

Hi Candi and all,

This is definitely a loaded question and one that our team has talked about
at length. We have noticed that it is becoming more and more difficult for
women to race in Oregon. As you mentioned, more fields are being cut and
the race distances are being shortened due to time/course/supprt
constraints. Many times when a race promotor puts on a race he/she has no
choice but to leave out or combine certain fields because of these
limitations.

The other aspect that we have talked about is that, because there are just
not as many women racers as there are men, once you have 50 races on the
race calendar, there aren't enough women to race every single race, so the
field sizes are small. All things considered, if you have 1 racer, they
may do 50% of all races (if they are pretty serious about racing). This
means that there is 1 less woman at any of the other 50% of the races - and
this stems to a lack of large field sizes in the womens fields.

Often times, when a promotor cuts womens field, our first instinct is to
get riled up - which is understandable. That being said, I'm wondering if a
shift in race promotion/offerings might be our best bet. By this, i mean
to offer a more limited run of races that have womens fields, but makes
sure to let everyone know in plenty of advance which races may not offer a
woman's field. If this was the case, yes, there would be less races for
women to have their own race, but if these are excellent courses and good
distances, they would draw a larger crowd of women. In a nut shell - less
may be better.

In regards to the new race this weekend, I think pre-registration is
another animal. There isn't much incentive to pre-reg, in my eyes. I
mean, what if I get sick the night before - or whatever the case. I think
it is a bigger deal if you know the field is going to get full - but I
don't think Pre-registration means much to the ladies. By the time you
register and pay the fees, the pre-reg incentive price isn't worth doing it
ahead of time (this is just my two cents). We have about 5-6 women racing
on Sunday, none of which have pre-reg'd and I know there are other teams
headed over that are in the same boat.

Anyway, take it for what it is - I'd love to hear other women's feed back.
I strongly promote beginners racing and mentoring and having fields
available to everyone as well as Elite level racing - but in this case
where we are dealing with smaller fields, I do think that less races on the
calendar would result in larger field sizes. I think it would also be wise
to look at when these races are offered (as far as promoting goes) because
a lot of the 1/2/3 women attend larger races throughout Washington and
Northern Cal, which I also think is great!

Thanks
Karey Swan
Director - WCWC Team p/b Ninkasi
541.556.0454

On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Candi Murray wrote:

> Ladies****
>
> I have been in discussion with a couple of races about which fields to
> offer. One event had the time allowed on course cut by the approving park
> and started to trim all fields that have had a small showing in the past.
> Out went Fixed Gear and Tandems. The next smallest field was the women
> 1/2/3.****
>
> We in OBRA are trying to encourage new riders, trying to encourage race
> organizers to offer events for the Cat 4 and Cat 5 riders to get them into
> the sport. And now that those fields are growing to split the Women 3 out.
> But how can we grow the sport if the riders at the very top are not turning
> out?****
>
> This week there is a new road race, I just checked pre registration and
> currently there are 1 Cat