Rick Johnson

Thanks Mark, I remember your story. It's a good one, and even turns
up on Google.



Perhaps I was simply mislead by another Google return from 2010 "Portland
commissioners OK $7.5 million for red-light cameras, photo radar"



http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/04/portland_commissioners_ok_75_m.html



Rick

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

Actually Rick I don't think they spend any money on
the cameras. In Portland the cameras are owned by the
collections company ACS who have a profit/fine paid fee
split with the city of Portland.

that is not to say the city has no costs in the
system, but the cameras are not one of them.

ask me how I know:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/05/portland_attorney_proves_red-l.html

 

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com

www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

---

From:
Rick Johnson <RickCJohnson1@gmail.com>

To: Todd
Mobley <todd@lancasterengineering.com>

Cc: OBRA
<obra@list.obra.org>

Sent:
Tuesday, May 8, 2012 12:38 PM

Subject:
Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light

Of course the irony is that Portland spends millions
of dollars on red light cameras.

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

On 5/8/2012 12:25 PM, Todd Mobley wrote:

Old-tech traffic detection uses
inductive loops, so sensitive areas are determined by
good, old-fashioned physics. Newer systems are
available, but traffic signals, like a lot of
transportation infrastructure, can be old and
expensive to replace. We're fortunate though, Portland
does an excellent job of being solution-oriented and
making the signal systems work for bikes.

-Todd

--

Todd E. Mobley, PE, PTOE

Principal

Lancaster Engineering

(503) 248-0313 phone

(503) 248-9251 fax

On Tue, May 8,
2012 at 12:12 PM, mohair <mohair@aracnet.com>
wrote:

The sensor for the left turn lane on Capital Hwy
that turns onto Terwilliger has been tweaked and
retweaked for years.  When it's tuned for
bicycles it will pick up the steel in a bike
chain on a non-steel bike.  The problem is that
when it's set like this, the mass of steel in a
car or a truck using the adjacent (straight
through) lane will trigger the sensor.  I
happened to be present when the City Of Portland
workers were finishing up an adjustment and they
explained the problem and the process.  As Mark
pointed out, these situations are complaint
driven and there are a lot more car drivers than
bicyclists.  The sensor has been tweaked yet
again and no longer registers my steel frame
bike.  If there is a car behind me in the turn
lane I try to get them to drive over the sensor
(after I move out of the way) to trigger the
signal.  If there is no traffic I treat it like
any non-functioning stop light:  I come to a
full stop and proceed in a safe and orderly
manner.



Personally, I think the sensors need to be
designed so the "sensitive" section is dead
center and further away from the adjacent lanes.
 I am not going to hold my breath.

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg

Actually Rick I don't think they spend any money on the cameras. In Portland the cameras are owned by the collections company ACS who have a profit/fine paid fee split with the city of Portland.

that is not to say the city has no costs in the system, but the cameras are not one of them.

ask me how I know:

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/05/portland_attorney_proves_red-l.html

T. Kenji Sugahara

make sure to report it to the correct traffic folks.

they may even set up an appointment to check that light with you. In
Salem that's what they do.

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Eric wrote:
> There are now video censor cameras which will work well, based on motion.
> Actually, they will pick up a bicycle easier than they pick up a dark car.
>
> == Eric
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of mohair
> Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 12:13 PM
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light
>
>
> The sensor for the left turn lane on Capital Hwy that turns onto Terwilliger
> has been tweaked and retweaked for years.

Eric

There are now video censor cameras which will work well, based on motion.
Actually, they will pick up a bicycle easier than they pick up a dark car.

== Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of mohair
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 12:13 PM
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light

The sensor for the left turn lane on Capital Hwy that turns onto Terwilliger
has been tweaked and retweaked for years. When it's tuned for bicycles it
will pick up the steel in a bike chain on a non-steel bike. The problem is
that when it's set like this, the mass of steel in a car or a truck using
the adjacent (straight through) lane will trigger the sensor. I happened to
be present when the City Of Portland workers were finishing up an adjustment
and they explained the problem and the process. As Mark pointed out, these
situations are complaint driven and there are a lot more car drivers than
bicyclists. The sensor has been tweaked yet again and no longer registers
my steel frame bike. If there is a car behind me in the turn lane I try to
get them to drive over the sensor (after I move out of the way) to trigger
the signal. If there is no traffic I treat it like any non-functioning stop
light: I come to a full stop and proceed in a safe and orderly manner.

Personally, I think the sensors need to be designed so the "sensitive"
section is dead center and further away from the adjacent lanes. I am not
going to hold my breath.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Of course the irony is that Portland spends millions of dollars on
red light cameras.

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

Old-tech traffic detection uses inductive loops, so
sensitive areas are determined by good, old-fashioned physics.
Newer systems are available, but traffic signals, like a lot of
transportation infrastructure, can be old and expensive to
replace. We're fortunate though, Portland does an excellent job of
being solution-oriented and making the signal systems work for
bikes.

-Todd

--

Todd E. Mobley, PE, PTOE

Principal

Lancaster Engineering

(503) 248-0313 phone

(503) 248-9251 fax

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 12:12 PM, mohair
<mohair@aracnet.com>
wrote:

The sensor for the left turn lane on Capital Hwy that turns
onto Terwilliger has been tweaked and retweaked for years.
 When it's tuned for bicycles it will pick up the steel in a
bike chain on a non-steel bike.  The problem is that when
it's set like this, the mass of steel in a car or a truck
using the adjacent (straight through) lane will trigger the
sensor.  I happened to be present when the City Of Portland
workers were finishing up an adjustment and they explained
the problem and the process.  As Mark pointed out, these
situations are complaint driven and there are a lot more car
drivers than bicyclists.  The sensor has been tweaked yet
again and no longer registers my steel frame bike.  If there
is a car behind me in the turn lane I try to get them to
drive over the sensor (after I move out of the way) to
trigger the signal.  If there is no traffic I treat it like
any non-functioning stop light:  I come to a full stop and
proceed in a safe and orderly manner.



Personally, I think the sensors need to be designed so the
"sensitive" section is dead center and further away from the
adjacent lanes.  I am not going to hold my breath.

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Todd Mobley

Old-tech traffic detection uses inductive loops, so sensitive areas are
determined by good, old-fashioned physics. Newer systems are available, but
traffic signals, like a lot of transportation infrastructure, can be old
and expensive to replace. We're fortunate though, Portland does an
excellent job of being solution-oriented and making the signal systems work
for bikes.

-Todd

--
Todd E. Mobley, PE, PTOE
Principal
Lancaster Engineering
(503) 248-0313 phone
(503) 248-9251 fax

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 12:12 PM, mohair wrote:

>
> The sensor for the left turn lane on Capital Hwy that turns onto
> Terwilliger has been tweaked and retweaked for years. When it's tuned for
> bicycles it will pick up the steel in a bike chain on a non-steel bike.
> The problem is that when it's set like this, the mass of steel in a car or
> a truck using the adjacent (straight through) lane will trigger the sensor.
> I happened to be present when the City Of Portland workers were finishing
> up an adjustment and they explained the problem and the process. As Mark
> pointed out, these situations are complaint driven and there are a lot more
> car drivers than bicyclists. The sensor has been tweaked yet again and no
> longer registers my steel frame bike. If there is a car behind me in the
> turn lane I try to get them to drive over the sensor (after I move out of
> the way) to trigger the signal. If there is no traffic I treat it like any
> non-functioning stop light: I come to a full stop and proceed in a safe
> and orderly manner.
>
> Personally, I think the sensors need to be designed so the "sensitive"
> section is dead center and further away from the adjacent lanes. I am not
> going to hold my breath.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

mohair

The sensor for the left turn lane on Capital Hwy that turns onto Terwilliger has been tweaked and retweaked for years. When it's tuned for bicycles it will pick up the steel in a bike chain on a non-steel bike. The problem is that when it's set like this, the mass of steel in a car or a truck using the adjacent (straight through) lane will trigger the sensor. I happened to be present when the City Of Portland workers were finishing up an adjustment and they explained the problem and the process. As Mark pointed out, these situations are complaint driven and there are a lot more car drivers than bicyclists. The sensor has been tweaked yet again and no longer registers my steel frame bike. If there is a car behind me in the turn lane I try to get them to drive over the sensor (after I move out of the way) to trigger the signal. If there is no traffic I treat it like any non-functioning stop light: I come to a full stop and proceed in a safe and orderly manner.

Personally, I think the sensors need to be designed so the "sensitive" section is dead center and further away from the adjacent lanes. I am not going to hold my breath.

Brian Hansen

In Clackamas County, the transportation dept. will adjust sensitivity on county roads only.

If it's a State Hwy though, you'll have to contact ODOT.

If it's where a county and state hwy cross, or if you are not sure, let both of them know.

Mark J. Ginsberg

sorry for the delay.

within Portland the 1st step is to contact (503) 823-SAFE,

most Portland problems like this are complaint driven, so if someone complains, they will change the sensitivity of the loop detector.

As a practical matter if the light will not change for you, you may still be breaking the law, but with a defense of impossibility.

I can't speak to what happened in Maggie's case specifically, but I have argued with some limited success, when we were able to show that the light would NEVER change that the client had no choice.

M

Seth May

I actually have this problem on my 50cc scooter at certain lights (left turn
lanes).Obviously, my bike doesn't work their either. I've even placed
rare-earth magnets on the bottom to mitigate the problem, and it has worked
some places. On the scooter, I can't just take the cross walk (I guess I
could, but I would look and feel ridiculous). I wait for two rounds of the
light, then proceed as if the light is broken.

Thanks
Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Westermeyer
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 8:02 PM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light

I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left
at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green
because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem
quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened
trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to
east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally
came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light
once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the
light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Todd Mobley

>
> Good engineers solve problems, bad ones make excuses for not trying.
>

This.

I couldn't agree more Rick!

-Todd

--
Todd E. Mobley, PE, PTOE
Principal
Lancaster Engineering
(503) 248-0313 phone
(503) 248-9251 fax

On Tue, May 8, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Ah, gotta love engineers who lack imagination.
>
> Good engineers solve problems, bad ones make excuses for not trying.
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend Oregon
>
> * * *
>
> This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions
>
>
>
> On 5/8/2012 7:58 AM, Maggie Edwards-Rising wrote:
>
> engineer responded that placing such a button would require a stand-alone
> post and that this would present a crash/fire hazard. : (
>
> > Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:53:21 -0700
> > From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
> > To: redmagoo@msn.com
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light
> >
> > On 5/8/2012 7:41 AM, Maggie Edwards-Rising wrote:
> > > Oh -- and there is no crosswalk or crosswalk light to push.
> > >
> > > maggie
> >
> > Perhaps the agency responsible could be persuaded to look into
> > installing a button for cyclists. One could point out the buttons used
> > by cyclists for the tunnels on SR14 in the Gorge as an example.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Rick Johnson
> > Bend Oregon
> >
> > * * *
> >
> > This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Monty Hill

Ray?? Mark??
Is there no provision in the statutes for proceeding through a red light that does not change? Thinking of all the lights that are triggered via a sensor in the road. Burnside and 23rd comes to mind. I proceed through that on early morning trips to Forest Park as it will not change for a bicycle.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Maggie Edwards-Rising
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2012 7:41 AM
To: westma1@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light

I have such a light on my morning commute, except it governs traffic proceeding straight through the intersection. One morning, a not so friendly off-duty motorcycle policeman gave me a ticket for about $270 or so for running a red light. He testified at trial that he saw me from an intersection that is about 200 yards away. Though the ticket was upheld at trial, fortunately for me the interim police chief intervened and offered a "share the road" class. I had asked for such a thing in trial, but the visiting judge (in retrospect) claims he knew nothing of the option and so didn't grant it (though what he really stated was that we were no longer at the procedural part of the trial, but at the guilt-innocense phase, and if I had wanted a class, I was supposed to bring it up directly by calling the ticketing officer before trial!). Ultimately, I was only out the $30 for the class, had to listen to a lot of bicycle-haters rant and rave, and I missed a dinner with my kids. I also am forever indebted to the court-reporter who brought my situation to the police chief's attention. And I will forever appreciate that if the system can find a way to go wrong, it will go wrong.

The interim chief counseled me via e-mail that, if he personally saw me come to the stop-light, put my foot down, look both ways and proceed, then he would not ticket me. However, he cautioned, it is at the discretion of the police officer whether to ticket. In light of the clowns that were in charge of my destiny (the officer and visiting judge), I'm not sure whether I'd want to run that gauntlet again.

For better or worse, my commute seems to have more and more traffic proceeding straight through the light to trigger it for me. Additionally, to my delight, I've recently discovered that the traffic engineers may have vastly improved the sensitivity of the road-trigger. This last week, I seem to have been able to swerve into the road over the circle and trigger the light. : ) I spoke with them after this incident, and so I do know it was on their radar. I'm a little worried about another off-duty motorcycle cop ticketing me for swerving into the road. . . . Oh -- and there is no crosswalk or crosswalk light to push.

maggie
> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 20:02:05 -0700
> From: westma1@gmail.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light
>
> I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Ah, gotta love engineers who lack imagination.

Good engineers solve problems, bad ones make excuses for not trying.

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

On 5/8/2012 7:58 AM, Maggie Edwards-Rising wrote:
> engineer responded that placing such a button would require a
> stand-alone post and that this would present a crash/fire hazard. : (
>
> > Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:53:21 -0700
> > From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
> > To: redmagoo@msn.com
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light
> >
> > On 5/8/2012 7:41 AM, Maggie Edwards-Rising wrote:
> > > Oh -- and there is no crosswalk or crosswalk light to push.
> > >
> > > maggie
> >
> > Perhaps the agency responsible could be persuaded to look into
> > installing a button for cyclists. One could point out the buttons used
> > by cyclists for the tunnels on SR14 in the Gorge as an example.
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > Rick Johnson
> > Bend Oregon
> >
> > * * *
> >
> > This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions
> >
> >

Maggie Edwards-Rising

engineer responded that placing such a button would require a stand-alone post and that this would present a crash/fire hazard. : (

> Date: Tue, 8 May 2012 07:53:21 -0700
> From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
> To: redmagoo@msn.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light
>
> On 5/8/2012 7:41 AM, Maggie Edwards-Rising wrote:
> > Oh -- and there is no crosswalk or crosswalk light to push.
> >
> > maggie
>
> Perhaps the agency responsible could be persuaded to look into
> installing a button for cyclists. One could point out the buttons used
> by cyclists for the tunnels on SR14 in the Gorge as an example.
>
> Rick
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend Oregon
>
> * * *
>
> This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions
>
>

Rick Johnson

On 5/8/2012 7:41 AM, Maggie Edwards-Rising wrote:
> Oh -- and there is no crosswalk or crosswalk light to push.
>
> maggie

Perhaps the agency responsible could be persuaded to look into
installing a button for cyclists. One could point out the buttons used
by cyclists for the tunnels on SR14 in the Gorge as an example.

Rick

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

This news has been sanitized for your preconceptions

Maggie Edwards-Rising

I have such a light on my morning commute, except it governs traffic proceeding straight through the intersection. One morning, a not so friendly off-duty motorcycle policeman gave me a ticket for about $270 or so for running a red light. He testified at trial that he saw me from an intersection that is about 200 yards away. Though the ticket was upheld at trial, fortunately for me the interim police chief intervened and offered a "share the road" class. I had asked for such a thing in trial, but the visiting judge (in retrospect) claims he knew nothing of the option and so didn't grant it (though what he really stated was that we were no longer at the procedural part of the trial, but at the guilt-innocense phase, and if I had wanted a class, I was supposed to bring it up directly by calling the ticketing officer before trial!). Ultimately, I was only out the $30 for the class, had to listen to a lot of bicycle-haters rant and rave, and I missed a dinner with my kids. I also am forever indebted to the court-reporter who brought my situation to the police chief's attention. And I will forever appreciate that if the system can find a way to go wrong, it will go wrong.

The interim chief counseled me via e-mail that, if he personally saw me come to the stop-light, put my foot down, look both ways and proceed, then he would not ticket me. However, he cautioned, it is at the discretion of the police officer whether to ticket. In light of the clowns that were in charge of my destiny (the officer and visiting judge), I'm not sure whether I'd want to run that gauntlet again.

For better or worse, my commute seems to have more and more traffic proceeding straight through the light to trigger it for me. Additionally, to my delight, I've recently discovered that the traffic engineers may have vastly improved the sensitivity of the road-trigger. This last week, I seem to have been able to swerve into the road over the circle and trigger the light. : ) I spoke with them after this incident, and so I do know it was on their radar. I'm a little worried about another off-duty motorcycle cop ticketing me for swerving into the road. . . . Oh -- and there is no crosswalk or crosswalk light to push.

maggie

> Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 20:02:05 -0700
> From: westma1@gmail.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light
>
> I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris Cortez

So that's what that Richard Thompson song is about. Great guitar solo
too.

- c.

On May 7, 2012, at 8:08 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Over this side of the mountains we just shoot out the light.
> :-D
>
>
> But seriously, if you can see where the wire is buried try waving
> ferrous metal over it (pedal, cleat, etc) as close as you can.
> Magnets are supposed to work good too.
> You can also push the ped crossing button.
> Also report it to the agency responsible for maintenance, they can
> adjust the sensitivity.
>
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
> One, it's completely impossible.
> Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
> Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
>
> Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
> On 5/7/2012 8:02 PM, Matt Westermeyer wrote:
>> I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is
>> turning left at an intersection with a left turn signal that that
>> won't turn green because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I
>> run into this problem quite frequently riding rurally out on the
>> east side. Today it happened trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie
>> where 17th turns into Harrison (west to east). I sat through 2
>> cycles of the light round robin before a car finally came up behind
>> me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light once it
>> becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the
>> light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a
>> green.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Eric

This subject was discussed extensively a year or so ago. A long-term
solution would be to get Oregon to pass a law in California Vehicle Code
which says that if a signal does not function correctly and it is safe, that
it is legal to run the red signal.

Start writing to your representatives on this now!

== Eric

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Josh LeBus
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2012 8:09 PM
To: Matt Westermeyer
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] What to do at an eternal red light

Legally I'd assume your suppose to exit the road to the adjacent cross walk
and cross that way then resume legally to the road, however, I treat it like
a flashing yellow light and yield to oncoming.

I'm sure others have a better answer for legal obligation...

Sent from my iPhone

On May 7, 2012, at 8:02 PM, Matt Westermeyer wrote:

> I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left
at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green
because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem
quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened
trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to
east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally
came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light
once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the
light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.
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Josh LeBus

Legally I'd assume your suppose to exit the road to the adjacent cross walk and cross that way then resume legally to the road, however, I treat it like a flashing yellow light and yield to oncoming.

I'm sure others have a better answer for legal obligation...

Sent from my iPhone

On May 7, 2012, at 8:02 PM, Matt Westermeyer wrote:

> I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.
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> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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Rick Johnson

Over this side of the mountains we just shoot out the light.
:-D

But seriously, if you can see where the wire is buried try waving
ferrous metal over it (pedal, cleat, etc) as close as you can. Magnets
are supposed to work good too.
You can also push the ped crossing button.
Also report it to the agency responsible for maintenance, they can
adjust the sensitivity.

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

On 5/7/2012 8:02 PM, Matt Westermeyer wrote:
> I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Matt Westermeyer

I'm curious what the legal obligation is for a cyclist who is turning left at an intersection with a left turn signal that that won't turn green because cyclists won't trip the light sensors. I run into this problem quite frequently riding rurally out on the east side. Today it happened trying to cross HWY 99 at Milwaukie where 17th turns into Harrison (west to east). I sat through 2 cycles of the light round robin before a car finally came up behind me. I usually proceed with caution through the red light once it becomes clear that unless a car comes up behind me to trigger the light to green, that it will continue to cycle without giving me a green.