joec@aracnet.com

And Manny Ramirez...

On Thu, 26 Jul 2012 00:16:10 -0700, Erik Long
wrote:
> And, as some here may know, DHEA is only a mild Testosterone
> enhancer. Not much of a performance enhancer in itself. However, it is
> used to "bridge" between cycles of stronger hormones - i.e. it keeps a
> 40-year-old rider from growing breasts when he ends his lengthy
> full-strength testosterone treatment.
>
> Also see: Kenny Williams and Tyler Hamilton.
>
> -------------------------
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:22:50 -0700
> From: markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> To: yeahdude1976@gmail.com
> CC: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> As others have pointed out,I meant DHEA, not DHA.
>
> I will stick to selling RV's and not pick up a side gig as a
> nutritional aid salesman!
>
> M
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
> www.berkshireginsberglaw.com
>
> -------------------------
> FROM: matt Savage
> TO: Mark J. Ginsberg
> CC: obra
> SENT: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:55 AM
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> I've been on a 1000mg daily dose of DHA for years. Hasn't done
> anything for me. I'm still a mid pack masters finisher...
>
> Gives me some gnarly burps too...
>
> -Matt
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:
>
> like others of you, b/c I am moderately fit, I get light headed if I
> stand up to quick sometimes.
>
> in me this is called Orthostatic Intolerance. But I am an RV
> salesman/lawyer, not a doctor.
>
> One N.D. (sic) I went to suggested DHA. I said, "I can't take that it
> is on the WADA list" TheND looked at me like i was crazy. I didn't go
> back for my 6 month follow up.
>
> Options are out there, both in the Papp route and both well meaning
> and more gray area professionals.
>
> My work partner is super fit and 20 years older than me. he is happy
> using some of the creams and balms that as racers we can't. He is not
> a competitive athlete, isn't trying to cheat anyone, but at his age,
> he looks great, is active and healthy. Is that cheating? don't answer.
>
> M
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com [2]
> mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com [3]
> www.berkshireginsberglaw.com [4]
>
> -------------------------
> FROM: Joe Zauner
> TO: obra
> SENT: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:07 AM
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
> [7]
>
> "Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg,
> Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly
> Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent
> of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle
> Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York
> and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the
> Pacific Northwest."
>
> -------------------------
> From: greggm00@hotmail.com [8]
> To: mohair@aracnet.com [9]; obra@list.obra.org [10]
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out
> there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a
> testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check
> the Outside Magazine article below.
>
>
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
> [11]
>
> > From: mohair@aracnet.com [12]
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org [13]
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>>
>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>
>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
> >
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Gran Fondo doping...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> [14]
> > >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org [15]
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [16]
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [17]
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [18] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [19] Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [20]
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [21]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [22]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [23]
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [24]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [25]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [26]
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> [2] mailto:markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> [3] mailto:mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
> [4] http://www.berkshireginsberglaw.com/
> [5] mailto:jzauner33141@hotmail.com
> [6] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [7]
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
> [8] mailto:greggm00@hotmail.com
> [9] mailto:mohair@aracnet.com
> [10] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [11]
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
> [12] mailto:mohair@aracnet.com
> [13] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [14]
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> [15] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [16] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [17] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> [18] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [19] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [20] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> [21] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [22] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [23] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> [24] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [25] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [26] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Erik Long

And, as some here may know, DHEA is only a mild Testosterone enhancer. Not much of a performance enhancer in itself. However, it is used to "bridge" between cycles of stronger hormones - i.e. it keeps a 40-year-old rider from growing breasts when he ends his lengthy full-strength testosterone treatment.

Also see: Kenny Williams and Tyler Hamilton.

Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:22:50 -0700
From: markjginsberg@yahoo.com
To: yeahdude1976@gmail.com
CC: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

As others have pointed out,I meant DHEA, not DHA.
I will stick to selling RV's and not pick up a side gig as a nutritional aid salesman!
M Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

From: matt Savage

To: Mark J. Ginsberg
Cc: obra
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

I've been on a 1000mg daily dose of DHA for years. Hasn't done anything for me. I'm still a mid pack masters finisher...
Gives me some gnarly burps too...
-Matt

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

like others of you, b/c I am moderately fit, I get light headed if I stand up to quick sometimes.

in me this is called Orthostatic Intolerance. But I am an RV salesman/lawyer, not a doctor.
One N.D. (sic) I went to suggested DHA. I said, "I can't take that it is on the WADA list" TheND looked at me like i was crazy. I didn't go back for my 6 month follow up.

Options are out there, both in the Papp route and both well meaning and more gray area professionals.
My work partner is super fit and 20 years older than me. he is happy using some of the creams and balms that as racers we can't. He is not a competitive athlete,
isn't trying to cheat anyone, but at his age, he looks great, is active and healthy. Is that cheating? don't answer.
M Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

From: Joe Zauner
To: obra

Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012
10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:

http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-

"Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg, Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York and Southern California, there was no
shortage of buyers in the Pacific Northwest."

From: greggm00@hotmail.com
To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org

Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside Magazine article below.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

> From: mohair@aracnet.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
> To: obra@list.obra.org

> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?

>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/

> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

OBRA mailing list

obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

don person

B&W: anything that keeps you alive and functioning is a performance
enhancing substance.

On Wednesday, July 25, 2012, craig austin wrote:

> Thoughtful, articulate, and balanced discourse has no place in cycling!
> Give me black and give me white!
>
> Seriously, though, thanks for that, Jeff. Perspective is a rare and
> wonderful thing.
>
> Craig
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:00 PM, jeff@ultrafreaks.net <
> jeff@ultrafreaks.net> wrote:
>
> **
>
> Fun to mock the Fondo doper and movie star's surgery, but it does
> underscore an emerging phenomenon.
>
>
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/9405113/London-2012-Olympics-Games-legend-Michael-Johnson-believes-Oscar-Pistorius-has-an-unfair-advantage.html
>
>
>
> We (the human race) will be challenged on many fronts in this regard in
> the next few decades, so brace for a vigorous debate at a minimum, and a
> potential revolution at the other end of the spectrum.
>
>
>
> For many, the perception of what is 'natural' and acceptable will change
> based on advances in technology. Human-machine integration is already in
> motion (cochlear implants, for example). Obviously we're seeing similar
> advances in biotech and pharma.
>
>
>
> These advances will bring obvious benefits in athletics and academics, and
> a growing schism between those that take advantage of them and those who
> choose not to.
>
>
>
> As the Pistorius debate highlights, it's not always easy to draw black and
> white lines either. I wouldn't characterize e-stim or altitude chambers as
> 'natural' but we've chosen to include them in what's acceptable. Likely
> many of us take vitamins and supplements (recovery drinks, protein powders,
> amino acids, etc) in hopes of improving our quality of life and our
> competitive edge - and these, as demonstrated so well by the pro cycling
> circus, definitely tread in the gray area of what's currently ok and what's
> not.
>
>
>
> It's amusing, and frightening, when people get deeply emotional over
> distinctions that are artificial, fuzzy, conceptual and entirely man-made.
> (If there's even the possibility that eating a bad steak will push you
> over the line, doesn't that raise a whole different set of questions about
> where we draw that line and why? ...or other questions about the quality
> of our food!)
>
>
>
> When you can have terabytes worth of human knowledge and experience safely
> augmenting your brain (hopefully without banner ads), would you do it? Or
> would you reject it because it's not natural, and be the Amish of the
> future? It's worth pondering now, because our children will likely live in
> that world. Grandchildren will for sure.
>
>
>
> Not advocating either way. We need rules for competition, and social
> morals are valuable. But it's a blurry line, and a moving target. Good to
> have an open mind.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On July 25, 2012 at 2:22 PM joec@aracnet.com wrote:
>
> > Huh. Certainly explains a lot.
> > (Like, why Demi Moore still looks so young...)
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:16:46 -0700 (PDT), David Diviney
> > wrote:
> > > I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and
> > > not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching
> > > and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects
> > > like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process.
> > > Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is
> > > booming in California.
> > >
> > > "mike.murray@obra.org"
> > > "remailer, OBRA"
> > > Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
> > > Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
> > >
> > > It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market
> > > would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very
> > > little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
> > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> > >
> > > -----O
>
>

--
Don Person (shiggy)
http://mtbtires.com
http://titusti.com
http://shop.on-one-usa.com

craig austin

Thoughtful, articulate, and balanced discourse has no place in cycling!
Give me black and give me white!

Seriously, though, thanks for that, Jeff. Perspective is a rare and
wonderful thing.

Craig

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 8:00 PM, jeff@ultrafreaks.net
wrote:

> **
>
> Fun to mock the Fondo doper and movie star's surgery, but it does
> underscore an emerging phenomenon.
>
>
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/9405113/London-2012-Olympics-Games-legend-Michael-Johnson-believes-Oscar-Pistorius-has-an-unfair-advantage.html
>
>
>
> We (the human race) will be challenged on many fronts in this regard in
> the next few decades, so brace for a vigorous debate at a minimum, and a
> potential revolution at the other end of the spectrum.
>
>
>
> For many, the perception of what is 'natural' and acceptable will change
> based on advances in technology. Human-machine integration is already in
> motion (cochlear implants, for example). Obviously we're seeing similar
> advances in biotech and pharma.
>
>
>
> These advances will bring obvious benefits in athletics and academics, and
> a growing schism between those that take advantage of them and those who
> choose not to.
>
>
>
> As the Pistorius debate highlights, it's not always easy to draw black and
> white lines either. I wouldn't characterize e-stim or altitude chambers as
> 'natural' but we've chosen to include them in what's acceptable. Likely
> many of us take vitamins and supplements (recovery drinks, protein powders,
> amino acids, etc) in hopes of improving our quality of life and our
> competitive edge - and these, as demonstrated so well by the pro cycling
> circus, definitely tread in the gray area of what's currently ok and what's
> not.
>
>
>
> It's amusing, and frightening, when people get deeply emotional over
> distinctions that are artificial, fuzzy, conceptual and entirely man-made.
> (If there's even the possibility that eating a bad steak will push you
> over the line, doesn't that raise a whole different set of questions about
> where we draw that line and why? ...or other questions about the quality
> of our food!)
>
>
>
> When you can have terabytes worth of human knowledge and experience safely
> augmenting your brain (hopefully without banner ads), would you do it? Or
> would you reject it because it's not natural, and be the Amish of the
> future? It's worth pondering now, because our children will likely live in
> that world. Grandchildren will for sure.
>
>
>
> Not advocating either way. We need rules for competition, and social
> morals are valuable. But it's a blurry line, and a moving target. Good to
> have an open mind.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On July 25, 2012 at 2:22 PM joec@aracnet.com wrote:
>
> > Huh. Certainly explains a lot.
> > (Like, why Demi Moore still looks so young...)
> >
> > On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:16:46 -0700 (PDT), David Diviney
> > wrote:
> > > I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and
> > > not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching
> > > and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects
> > > like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process.
> > > Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is
> > > booming in California.
> > >
> > > "mike.murray@obra.org"
> > > "remailer, OBRA"
> > > Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
> > > Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
> > >
> > > It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market
> > > would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very
> > > little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
> > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: mohair
> > > Sender:
> > > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
> > > To: OBRA
> > > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
> > >
> > > So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> > > cruiser and passing the pace car?
> > >
> > > I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> > > anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
> > >
> > > On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Gran Fondo doping...
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > >
> > > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > > Unsubscribe:
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > OBRA mailing list
> > >
> > > Unsubscribe:
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

jeff@ultrafreaks.net

Fun to mock the Fondo doper and movie star's surgery, but it does underscore an
emerging phenomenon.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/9405113/London-2012-Olympics-Games-legend-Michael-Johnson-believes-Oscar-Pistorius-has-an-unfair-advantage.html

We (the human race) will be challenged on many fronts in this regard in the next
few decades, so brace for a vigorous debate at a minimum, and a potential
revolution at the other end of the spectrum.

For many, the perception of what is 'natural' and acceptable will change based
on advances in technology. Human-machine integration is already in motion
(cochlear implants, for example). Obviously we're seeing similar advances in
biotech and pharma.

These advances will bring obvious benefits in athletics and academics, and a
growing schism between those that take advantage of them and those who choose
not to.

As the Pistorius debate highlights, it's not always easy to draw black and white
lines either. I wouldn't characterize e-stim or altitude chambers as 'natural'
but we've chosen to include them in what's acceptable. Likely many of us take
vitamins and supplements (recovery drinks, protein powders, amino acids, etc) in
hopes of improving our quality of life and our competitive edge - and these, as
demonstrated so well by the pro cycling circus, definitely tread in the gray
area of what's currently ok and what's not.

It's amusing, and frightening, when people get deeply emotional over
distinctions that are artificial, fuzzy, conceptual and entirely man-made. (If
there's even the possibility that eating a bad steak will push you over the
line, doesn't that raise a whole different set of questions about where we draw
that line and why? ...or other questions about the quality of our food!)

When you can have terabytes worth of human knowledge and experience safely
augmenting your brain (hopefully without banner ads), would you do it? Or would
you reject it because it's not natural, and be the Amish of the future? It's
worth pondering now, because our children will likely live in that world.
Grandchildren will for sure.

Not advocating either way. We need rules for competition, and social morals are
valuable. But it's a blurry line, and a moving target. Good to have an open
mind.

On July 25, 2012 at 2:22 PM joec@aracnet.com wrote:

> Huh. Certainly explains a lot.
> (Like, why Demi Moore still looks so young...)
>
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:16:46 -0700 (PDT), David Diviney
> wrote:
> > I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and
> > not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching
> > and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects
> > like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process.
> > Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is
> > booming in California.
> >
> > "mike.murray@obra.org"
> > "remailer, OBRA"
> > Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
> > Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
> >
> > It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market
> > would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very
> > little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
> > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: mohair
> > Sender:
> > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
> > To: OBRA
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
> >
> > So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> > cruiser and passing the pace car?
> >
> > I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> > anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
> >
> > On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Gran Fondo doping...
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> >
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe:
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> >
> > Unsubscribe:
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

joec@aracnet.com

Huh. Certainly explains a lot.
(Like, why Demi Moore still looks so young...)

On Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:16:46 -0700 (PDT), David Diviney
wrote:
> I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and
> not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching
> and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects
> like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process.
> Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is
> booming in California.
>
> "mike.murray@obra.org"
> "remailer, OBRA"
> Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
> Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market
> would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very
> little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohair
> Sender:
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> Gran Fondo doping...
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
>
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe:
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
>
> Unsubscribe:

Mike Murray

Also overestimates the benefits.

Mike Murray

From: Eckerbrian [mailto:eckerbrian@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 09:44
To: David Diviney
Cc: mike.murray@obra.org; remailer, OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

I hope you don't but a lot down on that bet of yours.

FYI - HGH is very expensive, $100+ per dose and daily dose is the usual regiment. I'm not aware of any coaching service that comes close to that charge.

Brian

On Jul 25, 2012, at 9:16 AM, David Diviney wrote:

I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process. Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is booming in California.

From: "mike.murray@obra.org"
To: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: mohair
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?

I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what

On Jul 25, 2012, at 9:16 AM, David Diviney wrote:

I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process. Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is booming in California.

From: "mike.murray@obra.org"
To: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: mohair
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?

I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

>
> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5154 - Release Date: 07/25/12

=

Mike Murray

I often wonder why, if we test athletes and call substance use a bad thing, why we also dont test actors and models, both male and female. It is very difficult for me to believe that the use of anabolics is not higher in that group than in athletes. There is certainly a marked difference in appearance from what was seen in the past. No one seems to care about this. And how about Provigil use by doctors, lawyers, etc? Or Ambien? It often seems that we draw lines in not particularly logical places. When I bring this up people often say But thats not cheating. I am not so sure. Certainly the competition for jobs for actors and models is every bit as competitive as any sport.

Mike Murray

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Mark J. Ginsberg
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 07:17
To: Joe Zauner; obra
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

like others of you, b/c I am moderately fit, I get light headed if I stand up to quick sometimes.

in me this is called Orthostatic Intolerance. But I am an RV salesman/lawyer, not a doctor.

One N.D. (sic) I went to suggested DHA. I said, "I can't take that it is on the WADA list" TheND looked at me like i was crazy. I didn't go back for my 6 month follow up.

Options are out there, both in the Papp route and both well meaning and more gray area professionals.

My work partner is super fit and 20 years older than me. he is happy using some of the creams and balms that as racers we can't. He is not a competitive athlete, isn't trying to cheat anyone, but at his age, he looks great, is active and healthy. Is that cheating? don't answer.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

_____

From: Joe Zauner
To: obra
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:

http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-

"Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg, Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the Pacific Northwest."

_____

From: greggm00@hotmail.com
To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside Magazine article below.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

> From: mohair@aracnet.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_____

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5154 - Release Date: 07/25/12

Kat Reinhart

I just want to point out a detail about the chemicals being discussed:

DHA, or decahexanoic acid, is an Omega-3 fatty acid found in fish oil and
similar supplements, and is NOT on the WADA/USADA banned substance list.
According to many health and fitness professionals this should be part of
your daily supplement routine and has no known adverse effects.

DHEA, or dihydroepiandrosterone, is a synthetic testosterone analogue, and
IS on the WADA/USADA banned substance list. The bottle of DHEA often says
something about "promotes sugar metabolism" but its major effect is one of
an androgen, i.e. testosterone.

They are, unfortunately, generally found right next to each other at the
grocery store or drugstore. Read your labels carefully and be aware of what
you're putting in your body!

Eckerbrian

I hope you don't but a lot down on that bet of yours.

FYI - HGH is very expensive, $100+ per dose and daily dose is the usual regiment. I'm not aware of any coaching service that comes close to that charge.

Brian

On Jul 25, 2012, at 9:16 AM, David Diviney wrote:

> I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process. Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is booming in California.
>
> From: "mike.murray@obra.org"
> To: "remailer, OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohair
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what

On Jul 25, 2012, at 9:16 AM, David Diviney wrote:

> I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and not have to buy it on the grey market-- for the same price as coaching and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process. Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is booming in California.
>
> From: "mike.murray@obra.org"
> To: "remailer, OBRA"
> Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohair
> Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
> To: OBRA
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg

As others have pointed out,I meant DHEA, not DHA.

I will stick to selling RV's and not pick up a side gig as a nutritional aid salesman!

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: matt Savage
To: Mark J. Ginsberg
Cc: obra
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

I've been on a 1000mg daily dose of DHA for years. Hasn't done anything for me. I'm still a mid pack masters finisher...

Gives me some gnarly burps too...

-Matt

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

like others of you, b/c I am moderately fit, I get light headed if I stand up to quick sometimes.
>
>
>in me this is called Orthostatic Intolerance. But I am an RV salesman/lawyer, not a doctor.
>
>
>One N.D. (sic) I went to suggested DHA. I said, "I can't take that it is on the WADA list" TheND looked at me like i was crazy. I didn't go back for my 6 month follow up.
>
>
>Options are out there, both in the Papp route and both well meaning and more gray area professionals.
>
>
>My work partner is super fit and 20 years older than me. he is happy using some of the creams and balms that as racers we can't. He is not a competitive athlete, isn't trying to cheat anyone, but at his age, he looks great, is active and healthy. Is that cheating? don't answer.
>
>
>M
>
>Mark J. Ginsberg
>Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
>Attorneys At Law
>1216 SE Belmont St.
>Portland, OR 97214
>(503) 542-3000
>Fax (503) 233-6874
>markjginsberg@yahoo.com
>mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
>www.berkshireginsberglaw.com
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: Joe Zauner
>To: obra
>Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:07 AM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
>Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>
>http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
>
>
>
>
>"Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg, Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the Pacific Northwest."
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: greggm00@hotmail.com
>To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
>Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
>This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there. Though not EPO, almostany middle age male can go and get a testosterone prescription from theirdoc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside Magazinearticle below.
>
>http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
>
>
>
>
>> From: mohair@aracnet.com
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>>
>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>
>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

David Diviney

I'd be willing to bet you could go on a monthly regimen of HGH-- and not have to buy it on the grey market--for the same price as coaching and reap better results. You'd also have all the good side effects like better vision, hair, skin and generally slow the aging process. Better results and better looking....that's why the HGH market is booming in California.

From: "mike.murray@obra.org"
To: "remailer, OBRA"
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: mohair
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?

I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

>
> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

matt Savage

I've been on a 1000mg daily dose of DHA for years. Hasn't done anything
for me. I'm still a mid pack masters finisher...

Gives me some gnarly burps too...

-Matt

On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Mark J. Ginsberg
wrote:

> like others of you, b/c I am moderately fit, I get light headed if I stand
> up to quick sometimes.
>
> in me this is called Orthostatic Intolerance. But I am an RV
> salesman/lawyer, not a doctor.
>
> One N.D. (sic) I went to suggested DHA. I said, "I can't take that it is
> on the WADA list" TheND looked at me like i was crazy. I didn't go back for
> my 6 month follow up.
>
> Options are out there, both in the Papp route and both well meaning and
> more gray area professionals.
>
> My work partner is super fit and 20 years older than me. he is happy using
> some of the creams and balms that as racers we can't. He is not a
> competitive athlete, isn't trying to cheat anyone, but at his age, he looks
> great, is active and healthy. Is that cheating? don't answer.
>
> M
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
> www.berkshireginsberglaw.com
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Joe Zauner
> *To:* obra
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:07 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>
>
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
>
>
>
> "Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg, Penn.,
> was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly Masters
> cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent of the sports
> participants in the United States. He told Bicycle Paper that although the
> majority of his clients resided in New York and Southern California, there
> was no shortage of buyers in the Pacific Northwest."
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: greggm00@hotmail.com
> To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there.
> Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a testosterone
> prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside
> Magazine article below.
>
>
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
>
>
>
> > From: mohair@aracnet.com
> > Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
> >
> >
> > So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser
> and passing the pace car?
> >
> > I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Gran Fondo doping...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> > >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Mark J. Ginsberg

like others of you, b/c I am moderately fit, I get light headed if I stand up to quick sometimes.

in me this is called Orthostatic Intolerance. But I am an RV salesman/lawyer, not a doctor.

One N.D. (sic) I went to suggested DHA. I said, "I can't take that it is on the WADA list" TheND looked at me like i was crazy. I didn't go back for my 6 month follow up.

Options are out there, both in the Papp route and both well meaning and more gray area professionals.

My work partner is super fit and 20 years older than me. he is happy using some of the creams and balms that as racers we can't. He is not a competitive athlete, isn't trying to cheat anyone, but at his age, he looks great, is active and healthy. Is that cheating? don't answer.

M

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Joe Zauner
To: obra
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-

"Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg, Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the Pacific Northwest."

________________________________
From: greggm00@hotmail.com
To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there. Though not EPO, almostany middle age male can go and get a testosterone prescription from theirdoc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside Magazinearticle below.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

> From: mohair@aracnet.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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dacrizzow

most of us are doing this for fun, or at least start out doing it for fun before we join the arms races and start justifying reasons to spend $2,000 on wheels. i don't think many of us can really honestly say what we would do if we were some struggling domestique just trying to keep a job while some DS gave some ultimatum or if we were an aging rider that's in over our head with debt and a family. i know what all of us would LIKE to say we would do but most of us probably haven't been in this predicament. as far as this grand fondo thing...well...i don't even know what to say.
now, as far as $60-70 a shot....speaking as a former drug addict, totally do able. you just have to get a few of your fellow cycling buddies strung out but don't let them too close to your source. that way they always have to go through you. of course you have to keep a constant cycle of "fresh meat" so to speak because after about three months these guys can get a little out of control and you've got a freak show on your hands showing up at your job and home. just sayin'

Rick Johnson

Rick Johnson

Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...

One, it's completely impossible. 

Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing. 

Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke

Actually never.  Here's why.  I compete for fun, the health
benefits, and to force myself to stay healthy and in shape.  I
like to feel how *my body* responds on the bike.  Not how my body
on 'roids or EPO or whatever ... might feel like.   Don't get me
wrong - I want to do as well as I can, up to and including winning
my races, I am extremely competitive in the end of it all.

Just like I don't cheat and cut corners on a MTB race, ride
through a coned section off course in a CX race (okay, in the
hypoxia induced pain cave, it's happened by accident, but it
doesn't happen on purpose) ... etc.  At the end of the day -
it's almost always only yourself you're cheating.  Most of these
races for most of us are worth nothing more than the effort you
put in to them.  If you have to cheat to feel like your effort
was worthwhile ... well, then that is a personality flaw you
need to face every morning in the mirror.  I suspect you rather
dislike large portions of yourself in that case.  

I recognize cheaters are rife among us ... but that's not
the choice I will make ... ever.

~~shane

--

"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."   - Sun Tzu

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:17 AM, <joec@aracnet.com>
wrote:

If we are being honest (with ourselves), how many of us
have honestly

thought

about trying PEDs? Not trying to start a flame war, just
asking a

curious question.



We know of one or two riders who have been caught and
punished. But how

many of

us would take the risk if it would shave a little time off
that 40K,

bump that

finish sprint up 1-2 mph, increase our endurance?



Joe

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Shane Gibson

Actually never. Here's why. I compete for fun, the health benefits, and
to force myself to stay healthy and in shape. I like to feel how *my body*
responds on the bike. Not how my body on 'roids or EPO or whatever ...
might feel like. Don't get me wrong - I want to do as well as I can, up
to and including winning my races, I am extremely competitive in the end of
it all.

Just like I don't cheat and cut corners on a MTB race, ride through a coned
section off course in a CX race (okay, in the hypoxia induced pain cave,
it's happened by accident, but it doesn't happen on purpose) ... etc. At
the end of the day - it's almost always only yourself you're cheating.
Most of these races for most of us are worth nothing more than the effort
you put in to them. If you have to cheat to feel like your effort was
worthwhile ... well, then that is a personality flaw you need to face every
morning in the mirror. I suspect you rather dislike large portions of
yourself in that case.

I recognize cheaters are rife among us ... but that's not the choice I will
make ... ever.

~~shane

--
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu

On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 10:17 AM, wrote:

> If we are being honest (with ourselves), how many of us have honestly
> thought
> about trying PEDs? Not trying to start a flame war, just asking a
> curious question.
>
> We know of one or two riders who have been caught and punished. But how
> many of
> us would take the risk if it would shave a little time off that 40K,
> bump that
> finish sprint up 1-2 mph, increase our endurance?
>
> Joe
>
>

Dan Anderson

If you really looking for lots of podium finishes, I suggest just staying in a lower category.

________________________________
From: "joec@aracnet.com"
To: Joe Zauner
Cc: obra
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

If we are being honest (with ourselves), how many of us have honestly
thought
about trying PEDs? Not trying to start a flame war, just asking a
curious question.

We know of one or two riders who have been caught and punished. But how
many of
us would take the risk if it would shave a little time off that 40K,
bump that
finish sprint up 1-2 mph, increase our endurance?

Joe

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:07:34 +0000, Joe Zauner
wrote:
> Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
> [1]
>
> "Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg,
> Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly
> Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent
> of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle
> Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York
> and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the
> Pacific Northwest."
>
> -------------------------
> From: greggm00@hotmail.com
> To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out
> there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a
> testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check
> the Outside Magazine article below.
>
>
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
> [2]
>
>> From: mohair@aracnet.com
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>>
>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>
>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Gran Fondo doping...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
> [2]
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

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mohair

Back when I was young (dirt had just been discovered) I used to run track in high school. I was trying to cut 6 seconds off my 440 time. I would have painted myself purple if it could help. Face it, competitive people are always looking for an edge. Competitive cycling might take a page from the body building arena; they recognized years ago that people are going to cheat so they created two classes "drugs" and "clean."

Now that I have grown old and no longer shave my legs (apologies to T.S Eliot) I ride because I need the exercise and I really enjoy riding my bike. At my age, exercise-generated endorphins are as wild as I care to get. :)

Thom Schoenborn

I've never spent the amount of time on a bike that would necessitate a drug. However, several years ago, I borrowed a friend's set of nice wheels (aero rims, bladed spokes) for the TT that runs outside of Eugene. It was my 3rd race, like, ever. I cut like 40 seconds off my time, I think.

Within 2 minutes of finishing, I started doing the math in my head: how much money can I spend on bike upgrades before my wife leaves me? And then I remembered something I read in the Kendra Wenzel book (Bike Racing 101, which I'd started reading the week prior) that said something like "don't focus on the gear, focus on spending time on the bike." Or the other old saw: "don't buy upgrades, ride up grades."

Stay away from drugs, kids. But aero wheels and carbon fiber frames teach you to keep a steady job!

TS

On Jul 24, 2012, at 10:17 AM, wrote:

> If we are being honest (with ourselves), how many of us have honestly
> thought
> about trying PEDs? Not trying to start a flame war, just asking a
> curious question.
>
> We know of one or two riders who have been caught and punished. But how
> many of
> us would take the risk if it would shave a little time off that 40K,
> bump that
> finish sprint up 1-2 mph, increase our endurance?
>
> Joe
>
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:07:34 +0000, Joe Zauner
> wrote:
>> Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>>
>> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
>> [1]
>>
>> "Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg,
>> Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly
>> Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent
>> of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle
>> Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York
>> and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the
>> Pacific Northwest."
>>
>> -------------------------
>> From: greggm00@hotmail.com
>> To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out
>> there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a
>> testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check
>> the Outside Magazine article below.
>>
>>
>> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
>> [2]
>>
>>> From: mohair@aracnet.com
>>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>>
>>>
>>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
>> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>>
>>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
>> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gran Fondo doping...
>> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
>> [2]
>> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Brian Ventura

Oooh, oooh, oooh, not it.

--
water

On Tue, July 24, 2012 10:17 am, joec@aracnet.com wrote:
> If we are being honest (with ourselves), how many of us have honestly
> thought
> about trying PEDs? Not trying to start a flame war, just asking a
> curious question.
>
> We know of one or two riders who have been caught and punished. But how
> many of
> us would take the risk if it would shave a little time off that 40K,
> bump that
> finish sprint up 1-2 mph, increase our endurance?
>
> Joe
>
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:07:34 +0000, Joe Zauner
> wrote:
>> Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>>
>> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
>> [1]
>>
>> "Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg,
>> Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly
>> Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent
>> of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle
>> Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York
>> and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the
>> Pacific Northwest."
>>
>> -------------------------
>> From: greggm00@hotmail.com
>> To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out
>> there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a
>> testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check
>> the Outside Magazine article below.
>>
>>
>> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
>> [2]
>>
>>> From: mohair@aracnet.com
>>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>>
>>>
>>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
>> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>>
>>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
>> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Gran Fondo doping...
>> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>>
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
>> [2]
>> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

joec@aracnet.com

If we are being honest (with ourselves), how many of us have honestly
thought
about trying PEDs? Not trying to start a flame war, just asking a
curious question.

We know of one or two riders who have been caught and punished. But how
many of
us would take the risk if it would shave a little time off that 40K,
bump that
finish sprint up 1-2 mph, increase our endurance?

Joe

On Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:07:34 +0000, Joe Zauner
wrote:
> Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
>
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
> [1]
>
> "Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg,
> Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly
> Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent
> of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle
> Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York
> and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the
> Pacific Northwest."
>
> -------------------------
> From: greggm00@hotmail.com
> To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out
> there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a
> testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check
> the Outside Magazine article below.
>
>
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all
> [2]
>
>> From: mohair@aracnet.com
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>>
>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>
>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Gran Fondo doping...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-
> [2]
> http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

Joe Zauner

Northwest EPO purchases from Joe Papp:
http://bicyclepaper.com/articles/355-United-States-Anti-Doping-Agency-Exposes-Northwest-Residents-

"Papp, a former second-tier professional cyclist from Pittsburg, Penn., was convicted of selling performance enhancing drugs to mostly Masters cyclists, the 30-somethings and above who make up 76 percent of the sports participants in the United States. He told Bicycle Paper that although the majority of his clients resided in New York and Southern California, there was no shortage of buyers in the Pacific Northwest."

From: greggm00@hotmail.com
To: mohair@aracnet.com; obra@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside Magazine article below.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

> From: mohair@aracnet.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

mike.murray@obra.org

It would all be diverted product so the price would be what the market would bear. The retail cost is pretty high but I suspect that very little of what is used for doping passes through the retail market.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: mohair
Sender: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58
To: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?

I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

>
> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>

_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

On 7/23/2012 4:17 PM, joec@aracnet.com wrote:
> target audience being...?
I'd say probably the people most likely to have to hump a ruck in some
third world country...

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

> Hell, the advertise stuff called 'AndroGel' on The Military Channel and
> History Channel 2
> (target audience being...?).
>
> Joe

joec@aracnet.com

Hell, the advertise stuff called 'AndroGel' on The Military Channel and
History Channel 2
(target audience being...?).

Joe

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 16:10:46 -0700, Gregg Magnus
wrote:
> This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out
> there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a
> testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check
> the Outside Magazine article below.
>
>> From: mohair@aracnet.com
>> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>>
>>
>> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>>
>> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Gran Fondo doping...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

joec@aracnet.com

I can put you in contact with Dr Ferrari. He is a close personal friend
of
mine. :^)

Joe

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700, mohair wrote:
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach
> cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does
> anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Gregg Magnus

This isn't new, and who knows how much abuse there really is out there. Though not EPO, almost any middle age male can go and get a testosterone prescription from their doc for "medical reasons". Check the Outside Magazine article below.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/dropping-in/I-Couldn-t-Be-More-Positive.html?page=all

> From: mohair@aracnet.com
> Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2012 15:51:58 -0700
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...
>
>
> So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?
>
> I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> >
> > Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

mohair

So what was the first clue they had; riding a three speed beach cruiser and passing the pace car?

I googled around but couldn't find a price for injectable EPO. Does anyone know what the "standard racer dose" is and what it costs?

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

>
> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>

Mark J. Ginsberg

I was a little suspicious of that guy on my commute this morning.

does WADA cover the daily Hawthorne Bridge renegade rampage race?

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Chris Cortez
To: RickCJohnson1@gmail.com
Cc: obra
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Nothing is sacred...

I'm saving a bag of blood in the fridge for the next Portland Sunday
Parkways.

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

>
> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

joec@aracnet.com

~sigh~

Really?

On Mon, 23 Jul 2012 14:48:08 -0700, Rick Johnson
wrote:
> Gran Fondo doping...
> http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Chris Cortez

I'm saving a bag of blood in the fridge for the next Portland Sunday
Parkways.

On Jul 23, 2012, at 2:48 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

>
> Gran Fondo doping... http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Gran Fondo doping...
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/two-amateurs-test-positive-for-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york-34711/