Actually I dont think that Scott is entirely correct. The break is also a
field on the road so they should have to neutralize for the same period as
the main field. The advantages and disadvantage should be the same for both
the break and the field. On the other hand, if the field gets passed but
the break does not then they get a benefit. That is bike racing and they
deserve the benefit.
It is also interesting who is pushing the pace during a neutralized period.
It appears that it is generally the faster, stronger riders pushing the
pace. If you think about it the faster guys should actually want to slow
down more so that the neutralization period is shorter. If the field being
passed comes to a complete stop the neutralization period is <30 seconds.
If it maintains the pace of the faster field it is a minute. If it only
slows 10% relative to the faster field it is 5 minutes. One would assume
that the faster, stronger riders would want the period that the slower
riders have to recover, catch back on, move to the front, etc. to be
shorter. On the other hand, it is not uncommon for people in general and
bike racers in specific to behave in a non-logical fashion.
Mike Murray
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Scott Jones
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 10:20
To: Jamie Mikami
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Field passing
If there is a break off the front of a group and the group is neutralized,
the break does not have to neutralize if they have an 'advantage'. A few
weeks ago we had this problem at Monday night PIR where a group of 4/5 men
of 5 had about 35 seconds on the group and the 1/2/3 men were overtaking the
4/5 group, but the 4/5 group didn't want to neutral due to a break being up
the road. It sucks, but that's racing. The riders in the break made a go of
it and just happened to be off the front enough to no have to neutral as the
group was. What happened was a total mess at the finish with the 1/2/3 break
finishing about 10 seconds in front of the 4/5 break, closely followed by
the 1/2/3 field, then the 4/5 field. Way to many people finishing at the
same time and all due to a refusal to properly neutralize. Yes, the official
could have added or subtracted laps like Mike has suggested, but it was not
something that was done.
I wasn't there last night, so I do not know what the gap was to the riders
that were 'off the front', but if they have a gap then they should not have
someone try to chase them down to neutralize them. They made a go of it and
had an advantage, then that is the break, but like I said I'm not sure what
the gap was last night. At some point the break will be overtaken by the
1/2/3 group and the chase resumes. The other point is taking advantage off
another group and hopefully a breakaway doesn't do that, but officials can
only see so much of the race track.
-Scott
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Jamie Mikami wrote:
I am not sure if you are refering to the first pass or the second pass.
For the first pass the 300 yard rule is hard to do when you have a break off
the front. I was actually going off the front during the pass trying to
catch 2 riders who were off in our group. I drafted a bit with the lead
break of the 1/2/3s thinking it was our group trying to help and when I took
my turn they told me wrong group, so I sat up and waited for the 3s. As
soon as they safely passed I for one was one of those that went to the front
since I felt we would not catch the 1/2/3s (my guess is they were around
100+ yards up) and road tempo to ensure we stayed closer to the break, but
never re-caught the 2s. I am pretty sure the break rode hard most of the
time and it is always a huge andvantage for a break that is forming to have
a group catch and pass during that time. That is a hard time to figure out
what to do as far as the 300 meter rule. I think we did well there overall
and as long as we don't re-pass we are self officiating as the rules seem to
deem this ok.
As for the second pass during our final lap, a bunch of us decided to wait
and just do a bonus lap which has happened a number of times. Add that to
your 2k rule below and it seems we should just make a rule at PIR that if
your group is passed on the back of the last lap, it is automatically an
extra lap. As it was about 50 yards after they passed the guys at the front
started racing full speed for the sprint, while us in the middle were trying
to tell them to wait for 1 more. The end result was you had some guys
racing into the back of the 1/2/3s and some guys trying to slow it up and
give more time.
Making the rule of a pass on the back straight of a final lap instantly adds
a lap to the race will make things much easier on the group as those who
worked to get into position for the sprint will just know they can't keep
going. I understand why they didn't want to give up their position and do
it all over again, but I think it was a bit of a mess during the second pass
and that is likely what you noticed. I have done a number of sprints with a
last lap catch and it never works out well as you always end up with those
in bad postion in the back wanting one more and the front 5-10 not wanting
to do it all over again. The rule would make it easy to figure out.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Murray"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 7:38 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Field passing
Last night was my first time of riding the Cat 3/4 field at PIR so it was
the first time I experienced the field passing from that side. It is clear
to me that there are many people who are not aware of the rules involved in
this process. Given that there are no lead or follow vehicles and no
officials present it is important that everyone understand how it is
supposed to work.
First, there appears to be a small number of people that are not aware that
it is never legal to take pace from a rider not in your race. In other
words you can't start with the 1/2/3 field, get shelled and then ride in
with the 3/4 field. More obviously you can't start with the 3/4 field and
then enter the 1/2/3 as it goes by.
Second, and more important, there is a specific rule regarding passing:
15.1.3 Field passing
Should a field catch another field of racers that started separately
(except in a Handicap Race) the slower field will slow and ride at
a neutral speed as soon as practical after they are caught by the
faster field or its lead car to allow the faster field to pass. They will
then continue to ride at a neutral slowed pace until the faster
field is 300 meters ahead or until they are released by an official
attending their race. The field being passed will stay to the far right
of the road allowing room for the passing field unless instructed by
an official otherwise. Passes will not occur in the final 2 kilometers
of a race. Riders will not pass unless there is clear space to pass
subject to rule 15.1.2 (centerline rule).
To put this in a more American measure of distance, you don't start racing
until the field that passed you is more than 3 football fields in front of
you. Last night people started racing again when the passing field was only
ahead 25-30 meters (one swimming pool for Americans). To make this a bit
easier to judge, at 25 mph 300 meters is roughly 25 seconds ahead. You
don't start racing again until you can see the field that just passed you go
past a point and it takes another 25 seconds for you to get there. A
smaller gap is just too short making it too easier for the fields to remix
again. If this rule is followed by both the breakaway and the field there
should be no advantage to either group.
Mike Murray
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