mike.m-@obra.org
Video cameras provided by OBRA are used to compile the results at all Oregon
road races. Producing results for all the riders in the field is possible
but tedious. It requires more official time so more officials need to be
arranged for which generally costs more money. It is not as easy as it
seems. Numbers are often difficult or impossible to read, riders overlap
and obscure other ride's images, etc. For these reasons placing all riders
is done at stage races but not generally at other road races.
There is no advantage to connecting a regular video camera to a computer for
this purpose since the camera itself can be used to do the play back. Peter
is likely referring to using a slit lens video system such as the one sold
by Finishlynx, http://www.finishlynx.com/. A slit lens camera creates an
image that represents a vertical plan at the finish line with the horizontal
axis of the image representing time. The video systems use a video camera
to obtain the image which is displayed on a computer for reading. OBRA has
a 35 mm slit lens camera. There are advantages and disadvantages to 35 mm
vs. video slit lens cameras. The biggest disadvantage of video is that we
don't have one and they cost a lot of money. You can hire a timing company
to provide one but that costs a lot of money too.
If anyone is interested in any other particulars about these systems or
other results producing systems or about how results are produced at bike
races feel free to contact me. This is something that we have spent lots of
time investigating and doing over the last several years. We are far better
at it then we were when I first started bike racing and all finish picking
was done manually. I expect that we will get better with new technologies
in the future.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Murphy [mailto:murphy_-@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 21:56 PM
To: voy-@wans.net; mike.m-@obra.org; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Why no cat. 5 division?
a video camera hooked to a laptop will enable the promoter to list
everyone's place in a race. I have seen it done. I have been a part of the
crew that did it. it takes a little time to get everyone listed, but the
officials could list the first 15 or 20 for the official posting and the
rest could be done by another crew member, while the next race gets going or
rewind the tape during the long road race or even just posted on the
website.
From: JOHN SCHADER <voy-@wans.net>
Reply-To: voy-@wans.net
To: mike.m-@obra.org, OBRA Remailer <ob-@topica.com>
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Why no cat. 5 division?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 17:25:47 -0800 (PST)
As a cat 5 fee paying participant I would hope that part of the fee would
cover the expense of telling me where I placed out of the whole field that
started. I realize the promoters have expense limitations, but still, it
would be great to know where I finished. Maybe a clock at the finish line
and someone to record the race start time and the finish time of the
leading groups and main peloton? At least if I get dropped and straggle in,
I can look at the clock for my time and compare it with the leaders'
finishing time. My goal for the season is to get to a point where I can
just finish with the cat 4-5 bunch. Regardless, I ride the whole distance,
if for nothing else than the training miles and to see if my time is
improving. I can time myself, but I'd love to know the time of the
finishers ahead of me so I can see if I'm improving relative to the rest in
my category.
mike.m-@obra.org wrote:I have been looking at the chip timing systems
for several years. One of my
motivations was just what Bruce mentions, that giving results to the riders
further back in the field would encourage participation. The chip systems
are still too expensive, undependable and impractical for routine use at
bike races. If you need more info on that subject just contact me so that I
don't bore the whole group with details like I usually do.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Werner [mailto:bruce_-@pgn.com]
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 19:10 PM
To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Why no cat. 5 division?
If it is not too late to comment, one possible solution to the entry level
bike racer dilemma is to use the "chip" timing that is often used for
triathlons for road races. Road racing is difficult for racers that can't
stay with the pack because they get absolutely no feedback as to how they
finished or if they are making any improvement. The only thing they know is
that they didn't make the finish results.
Using the chip would allow racers that don't finish with the pack to see
how
they placed in relation to other "off the back" riders and possibly create
a
race within a race where competitors keep riding/racing to finish ahead of
whoever is their competition. I have always thought that abandoning a race
because you weren't in contention for a win was detrimental.
The chip would also allow time comparison between the pack and the chasers.
If the new racer was able increase their training and see the gap between
their time and the peleton decrease it would motivate them to keep trying.
It would also make life much easier for the finish line officials trying to
sort out a pack sprint or even a race that has large gaps between
finishers.
A camera would still be needed for close finishes but racer ID would be
simplified.
In conclusion, paying an entry fee, getting dropped from the pack, and
getting minimal or no feedback about your performance is a big disincentive
to new and even experienced racers. Time trials seem to attract riders that
I never see at road races, and I think the part of the reason is that in a
TT everyone gets a result. My impression is that the bike racing community
hasn't given much thought to the tail end of the peleton, but it appears to
me using chip timing or something similar might be one way of expanding
participation.
"MARTEL,MATT (HP-Corvallis,ex1)" 03/07/03 05:01PM
Wow! I made the original proposal to cause discussion. I guess it worked.
Remember the original proposal?
1 - Promoters provide a separate race for any category that exceeds 20
pre-registered racers.
2 - All road racers volunteer at least one weekend to help at a race! This
isn't a big sacrifice! Getting volunteers was always my biggest headache
when promoting!
Here is a quick summary of things that stood out to me. Whether I
agree/disagree is irrelevant. Where it all goes is up to all of us that
race, volunteer, and promote.
- promoters want the freedom to set the fields as they please (i.e. no
regulations!)
- road racing takes time (sometimes years) and commitment to excel
- being race filler is honorable!
- separate cat 5 races get a lot of nods
- small fields in the cat 1/2
- adding a field (like a separate cat 5) will cause promoters additional
work
- no one commented on #2 of the original proposal
Matt Martel
-----Original Message-----
From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 7:43 PM
To: ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Why no cat. 5 division?
People need to realize that the addition of a field at a race adds expenses
and time to the program. Since these are often critical items race
organizers should, and usually do, pick the categories that they think will
get the most participation with the least costs. If OBRA were to
"require all promoters provide a separate race for any category that
exceeds
20 pre-registered entrants" as Matt suggests then race organizers would
face
the risk of higher costs. Schedules, which are generally made out months in
advance, would be compromised by uncertainty regarding the number of races
that would need to be held. The number of volunteers, officials, follow and
lead vehicles would also become variable. In addition, such a rule would be
unenforceable unless there was also a mechanism for checking how many
riders
pre-registered. Usually this info is only held by the race organizer. It
is likely that having such a requirement would discourage people from
organizing events leading to fewer races. The races that would be
eliminated would be the smaller ones. In other words, ultimately the
opposite of the intended effect.
At road races generally the turn out will be 10-20% of the available
market.
The potential market is diminished by the number of races offered to that
group, e.g. masters or women in addition to ability category. You can
estimate field sizes by knowing the number of potential racers in each
category:
total 35+ women
Cat 5 191 106
Cat 4 256 147 70
Cat 3 252 150 21
Cat 2 89 46 6
Cat 1 22 7 4
(as of 2/19)
Looking at these numbers you see why there is the move to having 1/2/3 and
3/4/5 (not enough 1/2 riders). There are enough Cat 5 to have a separate
race for that field. Race organizer should step up to offer that. We
should not try to force them to by making regulations.
People should also recognize that Oregon is far more user friendly to the
beginning racers than just about anywhere else. Low membership costs,
several races series, large numbers of varied events, etc. make it easier
to
become a bike racer here. That is one of the reason we have more bike
racers per capita then the rest of the US by a factor of 5-10.
Mike Murray
-----Original Message-----
From: MARTEL,MATT (HP-Corvallis,ex1) [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 16:04 PM
To: 'mc-@gorge.net'; ob-@topica.com
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Why no cat. 5 division?
Martin,
You bring up a good point. Road racing really doesn't welcome true
beginners..."Come on out and race in our cat 3/4/5 field and get your @$$
kicked!" OBRA and promoters need to recognize this as both a problem AND an
opportunity. OBRA could require all promoters provide a separate race for
any category that exceeds 20 pre-registered entrants for example. Currently
they do not require this of course.
Some promoters choose to separate the categories more than others. I have
never seen a cat 5 only race in this state. Have you noticed the latest
trend? Cat 3/4/5 and cat 1/2/3. This gives the cat 3 racers an option. I
wish I was good enough to have this choice!
Obviously, for every race there needs to be additional support vehicles and
more volunteers and more headaches, etc. I have never put on a road race,
but I have promoted mountain bike races and bicycle events (over 1200
riders
at one event!). It is a lot of work. Combining fields simplifies the
logistics. By the way, ALWAYS THANK THE PROMOTER AND THE VOLUNTEERS!
I have a proposal.
1 - Promoters provide a separate race for any category that exceeds 20
pre-registered racers. What will you get? More headaches and more
attendance! Look at mountain bike racing. Beginners and sports make up over
half the attendance! That's a lot of dough.
2 - All road racers volunteer at least one weekend to help at a race! This
isn't a big sacrifice! Getting volunteers was always my biggest headache
when promoting!
So, what do you racers and promoters think? Is this unreasonable? Can it
happen this year?
Matt Martel
Cap Velo
Corvallis, OR
P.S. I looked quickly at the BB#1 race results. It looks like there would
be
two additional races if this proposal was followed.
-----Original Message-----
From: martin cohen [mailto:mc-@gorge.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 1:09 PM
To: ob-@topica.com
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Why no cat. 5 division?
I have to believe there would be enough true beginners (not prev. cat
2/3's who feel out of shape, mtb. racers, etc.) to fill a cat. 5 field.
Someone just getting into racing, esp. if they don't have the skills to
cat. up quickly, face a daunting task in the 4/5's. Yes, that's bike
racing, get in or get out, stop your whining, whatever.
And I realize how hard it must be to get a race put together with all
the categories already, get race vehicles lined up, etc. Did OBRA ever
have a separate cat. 5 division?
I don't know how it is in other cats., but I'm really suprised when
there is a flood somewhere and the OBRA cat. 4/5's aren't called up
to help given how heavily loaded it is with sandbaggers!
A future sandbagger wannabe,
Martin Cohen
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