Re: Armstrong

Brandon

2012-08-28

Technically I think Bobke gets all the GC prizes the polka dots goes to phill liggett and the green jersey goes to Paul shermin.

B

On Aug 27, 2012, at 9:19 PM, john wrote:

> Yes I shouldn't have said anything , it's all just strange now :) So who are the winners now? and how far back in the field will they need to go?
>
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, biketroy@comcast.net wrote:
> Thanks John; now I can that off this silly yellow rubber band, since LA never really won a "Yellow" jersey it doesn't mean anything.
>
> Sent from my HTC Inspire 4G on AT&T
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "john"
> To:
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Armstrong
> Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 11:28 am
>
>
> So now the only American to ever win the Tour de France is Greg Lemond..
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Kirk Willett wrote:
> Just commenting generally and to nobody in particular, on the perception that everyone doped...
>
> This is not my experience. There is an entire generation of riders with the talent to race on TV in July (for example) who chose not to dope. They decided to compete clean even if it meant ending, limiting, or placing a ceiling on their careers. Most of those folks are not involved in professional cycling anymore and are unheard, unseen. I agree though that the power of doping during that era created a selection process that resulted in the majority of athletes at the higher levels of the sport being folks who were willing to dope. I also thing that things have been improving over the past few years.
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
>
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Yes I shouldn't have said anything , it's all just strange now :) So who
are the winners now? and how far back in the field will they need to go?

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:42 PM, biketroy@comcast.net
wrote:

> Thanks John; now I can that off this silly yellow rubber band, since LA
> never really won a "Yellow" jersey it doesn't mean anything.
>
> Sent from my HTC Inspire 4G on AT&T
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "john"
> To:
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Armstrong
> Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 11:28 am
>
>
> So now the only American to ever win the Tour de France is Greg Lemond..
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Kirk Willett wrote:
>
>> Just commenting generally and to nobody in particular, on the perception
>> that everyone doped...
>>
>> This is not my experience. There is an entire generation of riders with
>> the talent to race on TV in July (for example) who chose not to dope. They
>> decided to compete clean even if it meant ending, limiting, or placing a
>> ceiling on their careers. Most of those folks are not involved in
>> professional cycling anymore and are unheard, unseen. I agree though that
>> the power of doping during that era created a selection process that
>> resulted in the majority of athletes at the higher levels of the sport
>> being folks who were willing to dope. I also thing that things have been
>> improving over the past few years.
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>


=?utf-8?B?YmlrZXRyb3lAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ=?=

2012-08-28

Thanks John; now I can that off this silly yellow rubber band, since LA never really won a "Yellow" jersey it doesn't mean anything.

Sent from my HTC Inspire 4G on AT&T

----- Reply message -----
From: "john"
To:
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Armstrong
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 11:28 am
So now the only American to ever win the Tour de France is Greg Lemond..

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Kirk Willett wrote:

Just commenting generally and to nobody in particular, on the perception that everyone doped...

This is not my experience. There is an entire generation of riders with the talent to race on TV in July (for example) who chose not to dope. They decided to compete clean even if it meant ending, limiting, or placing a ceiling on their careers. Most of those folks are not involved in professional cycling anymore and are unheard, unseen. I agree though that the power of doping during that era created a selection process that resulted in the majority of athletes at the higher levels of the sport being folks who were willing to dope. I also thing that things have been improving over the past few years.

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Jerald Powell

2012-08-27

Not until (as I understand it) the UCI acts.

Jerry

Jerald M Powell
1926 SW Madison Street
Portland Oregon 97205

503 222 7173
503 799 7823 (cell)

jpowell@spiritone.com

On Aug 27, 2012, at 9:28 AM, john wrote:

> So now the only American to ever win the Tour de France is Greg Lemond.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Kirk Willett wrote:
> Just commenting generally and to nobody in particular, on the perception that everyone doped...
>
> This is not my experience. There is an entire generation of riders with the talent to race on TV in July (for example) who chose not to dope. They decided to compete clean even if it meant ending, limiting, or placing a ceiling on their careers. Most of those folks are not involved in professional cycling anymore and are unheard, unseen. I agree though that the power of doping during that era created a selection process that resulted in the majority of athletes at the higher levels of the sport being folks who were willing to dope. I also thing that things have been improving over the past few years.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


So now the only American to ever win the Tour de France is Greg Lemond.

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:36 PM, Kirk Willett wrote:

> Just commenting generally and to nobody in particular, on the perception
> that everyone doped...
>
> This is not my experience. There is an entire generation of riders with
> the talent to race on TV in July (for example) who chose not to dope. They
> decided to compete clean even if it meant ending, limiting, or placing a
> ceiling on their careers. Most of those folks are not involved in
> professional cycling anymore and are unheard, unseen. I agree though that
> the power of doping during that era created a selection process that
> resulted in the majority of athletes at the higher levels of the sport
> being folks who were willing to dope. I also thing that things have been
> improving over the past few years.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Kirk Willett

2012-08-26

Just commenting generally and to nobody in particular, on the perception that everyone doped...

This is not my experience. There is an entire generation of riders with the talent to race on TV in July (for example) who chose not to dope. They decided to compete clean even if it meant ending, limiting, or placing a ceiling on their careers. Most of those folks are not involved in professional cycling anymore and are unheard, unseen. I agree though that the power of doping during that era created a selection process that resulted in the majority of athletes at the higher levels of the sport being folks who were willing to dope. I also thing that things have been improving over the past few years.


Matt Martel

2012-08-25

I have never, ever doped! And my results prove this! :)

I think it all sucks. They were all dopers back then...many still are
sneaking in small doses now.

I love this sport regardless. I like riding, racing, watching races, etc. I
look forward to the new kids on the block... I hope Tejay can win the USA
Pro Challenge!

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 8:09 PM, Mike Richardson wrote:

> Against anyone's better judgement.
>
> "Ringleader"? I doubt any athlete gets to make those calls, even for a
> weak DIrecteur Sportif Which they didn't have.
>
> "biggest sports doper in US history"?
> Not as long as we still have baseball. And football. And track, too,
> sometimes.
>
> Their embarrassment, all of them, is they just KNEW he had to be and yet
> all their tests didn't catch him.
>
> USADA's just trying to justify their budget, and busting people at Grand
> Fondos doesn't quite get it.
>
> No-one cares about Capone. Really.
>
> Mike
>
> On Aug 24, 2012, at 3:50 PM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:
>
> Against my better judgement, I will say something ...
>
> Just as the FBI *needed* to get Al Capone for *something*, USADA needed to
> get Armstrong. Armstrong was ringleader of sophisticated and systematic PED
> distribution within his cycling team. He was an embarrassment to USADA.
> Their motivation was quite simple -- take down the biggest sports doper in
> US history by any means necessary. I claim that if you feel the FBI was
> justified in its actions with respect to Al Capone, then you really can't
> complain about USADA and Armstrong.
>
> That said, I am conflicted and saddened by the whole affair.
>
> Brooke Hoyer
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM, mohair <
> mohair@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> There are already stirrings in the main stream press about the USADA's
>> actions. The question is simple: Where does an American organization get
>> the power to nullify Armstong's European victories. From what I see, they
>> don't. There are rumbles that the FIC and the IOC are staking out their
>> turf. There is going to be a lot of legal action going on for quite some
>> time.
>>
>> If there is someone in OBRA-land that can show the legal basis for
>> USADA's actions, I want to see. It smells very much like the USADA is
>> looking to use Armstrong as an example of how powerful they are. The
>> USADA appears to have "bought" witnesses with promises of no prosecution.
>>
>> In my opinion the whole anti-EPO thing got off on the wrong foot. The
>> problem was that hyper-elite athletes were dying from a combination of low
>> heart rates and dangerously high red blood cell levels. So an industry was
>> developed based on finding traces of EPO, pre-cursors, post-cursors,
>> whatever. The simpler approach would have been to simply set a limit on
>> red blood cell count, e.g., if your red cell count is above 50% it is taken
>> as proof of drug use. Note: The argument that some people have naturally
>> high red blood levels is easily dealt with: Take samples of all the family
>> members. While there are cases where it does happen, it is statistically
>> improbable, as in seven sigmas out on the curve.
>>
>> I
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>>
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe:
>> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
>


rondot@spiritone.com

2012-08-25

Lance has had his few minutes of fame.
I personally am glad he was fortunate enough to get great medical care when fighting cancer and come back and race bikes. Most people in our country would NOT have gotten that much medical treatment. His racing comeback was inspiring for many. But....
Anyone out there who thinks Lance did not dope in order to enhance his performance is living in a Disneyland world. I cannot prove he did and you cannot prove he did not. You can speculate about what facts they have or do not have, but the truth is you do not know what they have for proof. It is logical to think they have enough to bust his fanny for drug use. I do not blame him for doing anything the other riders were not doing. Look at all the other riders sanctioned during his racing years. We could talk about all sorts of ways to find a common ground for dealing with all the drug use in the peloton in years past, but that is all we would be doing is talking about it. The governing bodies are the ones who need to address it at the individual and systemic levels. Just move on and let Lance end up where he ends up. Every person out there has their negatives. He has done much to help with Cancer awareness and maybe will continue with that work. Maybe in the end, that is what he will be remembered for in a sentence in some obscure history text.
As important as bike racers think the Tour de France is, it is really pretty small in the grand scheme of life. No more important than American football, basketball, baseball, Cricket, NASCAR or World Cup soccer. They bring people together, but are not essential for happiness. They are events that take place because the general public has enough leisure time to enjoy them. Having enough air to breath, your health and or healthcare, food to eat, a home to live in and being treated equally in your society is much more important than any of those sports.
Lance is in the situation he is in right now, not because some are out to get just him. You can think of many ways to rationalize my statement being wrong, but the truth is the USADA would not have taken these steps it they did not have enough proof.
Lance is not a bad person, he was just doing what others were doing and in the end, he did get caught like many others. Just because he is an American does not mean he was immune to needing that extra something to beat the others. It is sad in some ways, but when you make your living based on performance, you do what insures the best performance. Just riding lots and knowing the routes was not enough in his racing days.
It is getting better in cycling now. More racers are racing clean. I think.
Have a nice post-Lance weekend. Cross season is close and the Eugene Celebration Stage Race is up next for you roadies.
To some I am a fool, to me I am just living with almost 63 years of life experience.
ron

From: Mike Richardson
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 8:09 PM
To: Brooke Hoyer
Cc: OBRA
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Armstrong

Against anyone's better judgement.

"Ringleader"? I doubt any athlete gets to make those calls, even for a weak DIrecteur Sportif Which they didn't have.

"biggest sports doper in US history"?
Not as long as we still have baseball. And football. And track, too, sometimes.

Their embarrassment, all of them, is they just KNEW he had to be and yet all their tests didn't catch him.

USADA's just trying to justify their budget, and busting people at Grand Fondos doesn't quite get it.

No-one cares about Capone. Really.

Mike

On Aug 24, 2012, at 3:50 PM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:

Against my better judgement, I will say something ...

Just as the FBI *needed* to get Al Capone for *something*, USADA needed to get Armstrong. Armstrong was ringleader of sophisticated and systematic PED distribution within his cycling team. He was an embarrassment to USADA. Their motivation was quite simple -- take down the biggest sports doper in US history by any means necessary. I claim that if you feel the FBI was justified in its actions with respect to Al Capone, then you really can't complain about USADA and Armstrong.

That said, I am conflicted and saddened by the whole affair.

Brooke Hoyer

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM, mohair wrote:

There are already stirrings in the main stream press about the USADA's actions. The question is simple: Where does an American organization get the power to nullify Armstong's European victories. >From what I see, they don't. There are rumbles that the FIC and the IOC are staking out their turf. There is going to be a lot of legal action going on for quite some time.

If there is someone in OBRA-land that can show the legal basis for USADA's actions, I want to see. It smells very much like the USADA is looking to use Armstrong as an example of how powerful they are. The USADA appears to have "bought" witnesses with promises of no prosecution.

In my opinion the whole anti-EPO thing got off on the wrong foot. The problem was that hyper-elite athletes were dying from a combination of low heart rates and dangerously high red blood cell levels. So an industry was developed based on finding traces of EPO, pre-cursors, post-cursors, whatever. The simpler approach would have been to simply set a limit on red blood cell count, e.g., if your red cell count is above 50% it is taken as proof of drug use. Note: The argument that some people have naturally high red blood levels is easily dealt with: Take samples of all the family members. While there are cases where it does happen, it is statistically improbable, as in seven sigmas out on the curve.

I

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=

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Mike Richardson

2012-08-25

Against anyone's better judgement.

"Ringleader"? I doubt any athlete gets to make those calls, even for a weak DIrecteur Sportif Which they didn't have.

"biggest sports doper in US history"?
Not as long as we still have baseball. And football. And track, too, sometimes.

Their embarrassment, all of them, is they just KNEW he had to be and yet all their tests didn't catch him.

USADA's just trying to justify their budget, and busting people at Grand Fondos doesn't quite get it.

No-one cares about Capone. Really.

Mike

On Aug 24, 2012, at 3:50 PM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:

> Against my better judgement, I will say something ...
>
> Just as the FBI *needed* to get Al Capone for *something*, USADA needed to get Armstrong. Armstrong was ringleader of sophisticated and systematic PED distribution within his cycling team. He was an embarrassment to USADA. Their motivation was quite simple -- take down the biggest sports doper in US history by any means necessary. I claim that if you feel the FBI was justified in its actions with respect to Al Capone, then you really can't complain about USADA and Armstrong.
>
> That said, I am conflicted and saddened by the whole affair.
>
> Brooke Hoyer
>
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM, mohair wrote:
>
> There are already stirrings in the main stream press about the USADA's actions. The question is simple: Where does an American organization get the power to nullify Armstong's European victories. From what I see, they don't. There are rumbles that the FIC and the IOC are staking out their turf. There is going to be a lot of legal action going on for quite some time.
>
> If there is someone in OBRA-land that can show the legal basis for USADA's actions, I want to see. It smells very much like the USADA is looking to use Armstrong as an example of how powerful they are. The USADA appears to have "bought" witnesses with promises of no prosecution.
>
> In my opinion the whole anti-EPO thing got off on the wrong foot. The problem was that hyper-elite athletes were dying from a combination of low heart rates and dangerously high red blood cell levels. So an industry was developed based on finding traces of EPO, pre-cursors, post-cursors, whatever. The simpler approach would have been to simply set a limit on red blood cell count, e.g., if your red cell count is above 50% it is taken as proof of drug use. Note: The argument that some people have naturally high red blood levels is easily dealt with: Take samples of all the family members. While there are cases where it does happen, it is statistically improbable, as in seven sigmas out on the curve.
>
> I
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


mohair

2012-08-25

Remember that the FBI didn't get Al Capone. The IRS got him on tax charges.

> So maybe the FBI can't strip Al Capone's title of biggest bootlegger, but they sure can send him to jail.


Brooke Hoyer

2012-08-24

And regarding your "ends justify the means" comment ... Take a look at how
any DA makes cases and tell me how USADA is deviating from that model. I am
not trying to support USADA actions and methods, I'm just pointing out that
they are about as draconian as the current US justice system.

Brooke Hoyer

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On 8/24/2012 3:50 PM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:
>
>> I claim that if you feel the FBI was justified in its actions with
>> respect to Al Capone, then you really can't complain about USADA and
>> Armstrong.
>>
>>
> Ah yes, the old "ends justify the means" argument. Slippery slope that one.
>
> I suppose everyone should also keep in mind that in this analogy "Al
> Capone" committed his "crimes" outside of the jurisdiction of the "FBI".
> (Since I don't believe you were referring to the French Bureau of
> Investigation.)
>
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
> One, it's completely impossible.
> Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
> Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
>
> Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
>


Brooke Hoyer

2012-08-24

Whether USADA has any authority to strip titles give under the aegis of a
non-US governing body is an open question. Agreements between USADA, WADA,
UCI, and other national governing bodies is a complex issue. What is
certainly without dispute is that USADA as a signatory of the World
Anti-Doping Code has the authority to sanction US cyclists for infractions
of that code even if they were committed in events sanctioned by other
World Anti-Doping Code signatories.

So maybe the FBI can't strip Al Capone's title of biggest bootlegger, but
they sure can send him to jail.

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On 8/24/2012 3:50 PM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:
>
>> I claim that if you feel the FBI was justified in its actions with
>> respect to Al Capone, then you really can't complain about USADA and
>> Armstrong.
>>
>>
> Ah yes, the old "ends justify the means" argument. Slippery slope that one.
>
> I suppose everyone should also keep in mind that in this analogy "Al
> Capone" committed his "crimes" outside of the jurisdiction of the "FBI".
> (Since I don't believe you were referring to the French Bureau of
> Investigation.)
>
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend, Oregon
>
> Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
> One, it's completely impossible.
> Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
> Three, I said it was a good idea all along.
>
> Arthur C. Clarke
>
>
>


Rick Johnson

2012-08-24

On 8/24/2012 3:50 PM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:
> I claim that if you feel the FBI was justified in its actions with
> respect to Al Capone, then you really can't complain about USADA and
> Armstrong.
>

Ah yes, the old "ends justify the means" argument. Slippery slope that one.

I suppose everyone should also keep in mind that in this analogy "Al
Capone" committed his "crimes" outside of the jurisdiction of the "FBI".
(Since I don't believe you were referring to the French Bureau of
Investigation.)

Rick Johnson
Bend, Oregon

Every revolutionary idea seems to evoke three stages of reaction...
One, it's completely impossible.
Two, it's possible, but it's not worth doing.
Three, I said it was a good idea all along.

Arthur C. Clarke


Brooke Hoyer

2012-08-24

Against my better judgement, I will say something ...

Just as the FBI *needed* to get Al Capone for *something*, USADA needed to
get Armstrong. Armstrong was ringleader of sophisticated and systematic PED
distribution within his cycling team. He was an embarrassment to USADA.
Their motivation was quite simple -- take down the biggest sports doper in
US history by any means necessary. I claim that if you feel the FBI was
justified in its actions with respect to Al Capone, then you really can't
complain about USADA and Armstrong.

That said, I am conflicted and saddened by the whole affair.

Brooke Hoyer

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:00 PM, mohair wrote:

>
> There are already stirrings in the main stream press about the USADA's
> actions. The question is simple: Where does an American organization get
> the power to nullify Armstong's European victories. From what I see, they
> don't. There are rumbles that the FIC and the IOC are staking out their
> turf. There is going to be a lot of legal action going on for quite some
> time.
>
> If there is someone in OBRA-land that can show the legal basis for USADA's
> actions, I want to see. It smells very much like the USADA is looking to
> use Armstrong as an example of how powerful they are. The USADA appears
> to have "bought" witnesses with promises of no prosecution.
>
> In my opinion the whole anti-EPO thing got off on the wrong foot. The
> problem was that hyper-elite athletes were dying from a combination of low
> heart rates and dangerously high red blood cell levels. So an industry was
> developed based on finding traces of EPO, pre-cursors, post-cursors,
> whatever. The simpler approach would have been to simply set a limit on
> red blood cell count, e.g., if your red cell count is above 50% it is taken
> as proof of drug use. Note: The argument that some people have naturally
> high red blood levels is easily dealt with: Take samples of all the family
> members. While there are cases where it does happen, it is statistically
> improbable, as in seven sigmas out on the curve.
>
> I
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


John Bravard

2012-08-24

Where have you been all these years? The 50% limit WAS the rule when there were no tests for synthetic EPO. And it was easily cheated by professionals, who, it's been reported, could get a 60% hematocrit down to 50% between being notified and giving blood for the test.

On Aug 24, 2012, at 3:00 PM, mohair wrote:

>
> There are already stirrings in the main stream press about the USADA's actions. The question is simple: Where does an American organization get the power to nullify Armstong's European victories. From what I see, they don't. There are rumbles that the FIC and the IOC are staking out their turf. There is going to be a lot of legal action going on for quite some time.
>
> If there is someone in OBRA-land that can show the legal basis for USADA's actions, I want to see. It smells very much like the USADA is looking to use Armstrong as an example of how powerful they are. The USADA appears to have "bought" witnesses with promises of no prosecution.
>
> In my opinion the whole anti-EPO thing got off on the wrong foot. The problem was that hyper-elite athletes were dying from a combination of low heart rates and dangerously high red blood cell levels. So an industry was developed based on finding traces of EPO, pre-cursors, post-cursors, whatever. The simpler approach would have been to simply set a limit on red blood cell count, e.g., if your red cell count is above 50% it is taken as proof of drug use. Note: The argument that some people have naturally high red blood levels is easily dealt with: Take samples of all the family members. While there are cases where it does happen, it is statistically improbable, as in seven sigmas out on the curve.
>
> I
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


mohair

2012-08-24

There are already stirrings in the main stream press about the USADA's actions. The question is simple: Where does an American organization get the power to nullify Armstong's European victories. From what I see, they don't. There are rumbles that the FIC and the IOC are staking out their turf. There is going to be a lot of legal action going on for quite some time.

If there is someone in OBRA-land that can show the legal basis for USADA's actions, I want to see. It smells very much like the USADA is looking to use Armstrong as an example of how powerful they are. The USADA appears to have "bought" witnesses with promises of no prosecution.

In my opinion the whole anti-EPO thing got off on the wrong foot. The problem was that hyper-elite athletes were dying from a combination of low heart rates and dangerously high red blood cell levels. So an industry was developed based on finding traces of EPO, pre-cursors, post-cursors, whatever. The simpler approach would have been to simply set a limit on red blood cell count, e.g., if your red cell count is above 50% it is taken as proof of drug use. Note: The argument that some people have naturally high red blood levels is easily dealt with: Take samples of all the family members. While there are cases where it does happen, it is statistically improbable, as in seven sigmas out on the curve.

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