rondot@spiritone.com

Thats it Chipp. You are getting into the Cross State of Mind. Trample.
Trample. Trample.
ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Chipp
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 12:50 PM
To: olivier ; obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance Camp #2

ONLY when USADA proves the evidence and hands out the maximum sanction's
against EVERY doper in the American peloton will I begin to listen. If
riders from the Postal/Discovery/Phonak era doped they should all be
disciplined equally by USADA. Plea bargains seem a little like
cheating/bending the rules to me and will taint USADA's credibility and
image forever.No duh, huh!??!----- Original Message -----
From: "olivier"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Lance Camp #2

> Seems like most of the respondents are in camp two: those who think Lance
> doped but so did everybody else so what what's the big deal, (insert your
> reason here). His work for cancer. The past is done. USADA is bogus.
> Etc. There are no 4th and 5th camps here, you are in Camp 2, which means
> you're willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated to win. It appears
> that nobody on this list still thinks he was clean, which is encouraging.
> And my guess is that those in camp #1 are satisfied enough that they don't
> need to comment (although a few have). But let's get real here, this is
> not revisionist, at no point were the rules stated that you could cheat if
> only you didn't get caught. The rules were clear, especially after the
> Festina scandal: you cheat and we will catch you however we can, even if
> you are using something we can't detect yet. WADA was set up as an
> international anti-doping agency because governments were able to combat
> doping better than individual sporting fe
de
> rations, and now we are seeing the benefit, as it is clear that the UCI
> has been inept in this capacity (and possibly complicit). That USADA has
> taken the responsibility to hold Lance accountable for his past actions
> has nothing to do with malice; it has everything do with the fact that
> Lance was a drug cheat and USADA is charged with busting drug cheats. The
> relevant arguments between camps 1 and 2 are at this point philosophical,
> and each side has valid points, as we have yet to see the end of this one.
>
> But Lance beat cancer, he won 7 Tours, he beat the Feds, and now... Now he
> gives up the fight? With his legendary tenacity and all-star legal team,
> he gives up? Really?
>
> I find it surprising the number of people who are willing to overlook the
> fact that Lance cheated, for whatever reason. I don't see the point of
> stripping him of his Tour wins (and give them to who, exactly?). But I am
> in favor of a punishment that fits the crime. And no, I don't think we
> can just brush this aside and pretend it was all ok. Revisionist or not,
> doping in sport sucks, and the criminals should be nailed to the wall.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

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Chipp

ONLY when USADA proves the evidence and hands out the maximum sanction's against EVERY doper in the American peloton will I begin to listen. If riders from the Postal/Discovery/Phonak era doped they should all be disciplined equally by USADA. Plea bargains seem a little like cheating/bending the rules to me and will taint USADA's credibility and image forever.No duh, huh!??!----- Original Message -----
From: "olivier"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Lance Camp #2

> Seems like most of the respondents are in camp two: those who think Lance doped but so did everybody else so what what's the big deal, (insert your reason here). His work for cancer. The past is done. USADA is bogus. Etc. There are no 4th and 5th camps here, you are in Camp 2, which means you're willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated to win. It appears that nobody on this list still thinks he was clean, which is encouraging. And my guess is that those in camp #1 are satisfied enough that they don't need to comment (although a few have). But let's get real here, this is not revisionist, at no point were the rules stated that you could cheat if only you didn't get caught. The rules were clear, especially after the Festina scandal: you cheat and we will catch you however we can, even if you are using something we can't detect yet. WADA was set up as an international anti-doping agency because governments were able to combat doping better than individual sporting fede
> rations, and now we are seeing the benefit, as it is clear that the UCI has been inept in this capacity (and possibly complicit). That USADA has taken the responsibility to hold Lance accountable for his past actions has nothing to do with malice; it has everything do with the fact that Lance was a drug cheat and USADA is charged with busting drug cheats. The relevant arguments between camps 1 and 2 are at this point philosophical, and each side has valid points, as we have yet to see the end of this one.
>
> But Lance beat cancer, he won 7 Tours, he beat the Feds, and now... Now he gives up the fight? With his legendary tenacity and all-star legal team, he gives up? Really?
>
> I find it surprising the number of people who are willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated, for whatever reason. I don't see the point of stripping him of his Tour wins (and give them to who, exactly?). But I am in favor of a punishment that fits the crime. And no, I don't think we can just brush this aside and pretend it was all ok. Revisionist or not, doping in sport sucks, and the criminals should be nailed to the wall.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Ormerod, Gilbert

Now THAT was well said.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of olivier
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:09 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Lance Camp #2

Seems like most of the respondents are in camp two: those who think Lance doped but so did everybody else so what what's the big deal, (insert your reason here). His work for cancer. The past is done. USADA is bogus. Etc. There are no 4th and 5th camps here, you are in Camp 2, which means you're willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated to win. It appears that nobody on this list still thinks he was clean, which is encouraging. And my guess is that those in camp #1 are satisfied enough that they don't need to comment (although a few have). But let's get real here, this is not revisionist, at no point were the rules stated that you could cheat if only you didn't get caught. The rules were clear, especially after the Festina scandal: you cheat and we will catch you however we can, even if you are using something we can't detect yet. WADA was set up as an international anti-doping agency because governments were able to combat doping better than individual sport
ing fede
rations, and now we are seeing the benefit, as it is clear that the UCI has been inept in this capacity (and possibly complicit). That USADA has taken the responsibility to hold Lance accountable for his past actions has nothing to do with malice; it has everything do with the fact that Lance was a drug cheat and USADA is charged with busting drug cheats. The relevant arguments between camps 1 and 2 are at this point philosophical, and each side has valid points, as we have yet to see the end of this one.

But Lance beat cancer, he won 7 Tours, he beat the Feds, and now... Now he gives up the fight? With his legendary tenacity and all-star legal team, he gives up? Really?

I find it surprising the number of people who are willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated, for whatever reason. I don't see the point of stripping him of his Tour wins (and give them to who, exactly?). But I am in favor of a punishment that fits the crime. And no, I don't think we can just brush this aside and pretend it was all ok. Revisionist or not, doping in sport sucks, and the criminals should be nailed to the wall.
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olivier

Seems like most of the respondents are in camp two: those who think Lance doped but so did everybody else so what what's the big deal, (insert your reason here). His work for cancer. The past is done. USADA is bogus. Etc. There are no 4th and 5th camps here, you are in Camp 2, which means you're willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated to win. It appears that nobody on this list still thinks he was clean, which is encouraging. And my guess is that those in camp #1 are satisfied enough that they don't need to comment (although a few have). But let's get real here, this is not revisionist, at no point were the rules stated that you could cheat if only you didn't get caught. The rules were clear, especially after the Festina scandal: you cheat and we will catch you however we can, even if you are using something we can't detect yet. WADA was set up as an international anti-doping agency because governments were able to combat doping better than individual sporting fede
rations, and now we are seeing the benefit, as it is clear that the UCI has been inept in this capacity (and possibly complicit). That USADA has taken the responsibility to hold Lance accountable for his past actions has nothing to do with malice; it has everything do with the fact that Lance was a drug cheat and USADA is charged with busting drug cheats. The relevant arguments between camps 1 and 2 are at this point philosophical, and each side has valid points, as we have yet to see the end of this one.

But Lance beat cancer, he won 7 Tours, he beat the Feds, and now... Now he gives up the fight? With his legendary tenacity and all-star legal team, he gives up? Really?

I find it surprising the number of people who are willing to overlook the fact that Lance cheated, for whatever reason. I don't see the point of stripping him of his Tour wins (and give them to who, exactly?). But I am in favor of a punishment that fits the crime. And no, I don't think we can just brush this aside and pretend it was all ok. Revisionist or not, doping in sport sucks, and the criminals should be nailed to the wall.