jocko jones

Steve has a point. Stage a million dixie cups in the bushes?

--
"When commuter races commuter the only winner is disgrace."

T. Kenji Sugahara

beer? pass me the popcorn.

On Mon, Sep 3, 2012 at 11:27 PM, Erik Long wrote:
> Somebody get me a beer . . .
>
>
>
>> From: eric939@redshift.com
>> To: skbugco@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
>> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 19:38:48 -0700
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon
>
>>
>>
>> Then, look at the policy of USA Cycling regarding complaints about riders
>> or
>> investigations. The only requirement for investigators is that they are
>> friends of the Technical Director. No training or anything.
>>
>> And the USAC policies regarding investigations instituted in 2011 include
>> no
>> due process, and in several places prohibit anybody from taking an issue
>> into the court system.
>>
>> Does that sound legal? It doesn't to me.
>>
>> == Eric
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The more important story around all this is the USADA's (a "private"
>> company) ability to act really without regard to following the law of the
>> land. While I'm in the screw Lance and everything about him camp, it's
>> going
>> to be interesting to see how this all sorts out.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org

Steve Brown

Cannot see what the big fuss is about. Publish the rules, play by the rules. If a result is too good to be true it usually is. I doubt the number of cheaters has every changed. PED's are not different than any other form of cheating. We probably have a bigger problem with inappropriate micturation.

Steve Brown
On Sep 4, 2012, at 9:13 AM, Mike Murray wrote:

> TUE for testosterone is very difficult to get. It requires not only
> demonstrating low testosterone levels but also showing several full anabolic
> tests to demonstrate that your low testosterone is not due to suppression of
> testosterone production by use of exogenous steroids. Simply demonstrating
> primary hypogonadism or even pan hypopituitarism is not adequate. Bottom
> line is that getting a TUE for testosterone is going to cost thousands of
> dollars in testing alone. This sounds like only an academic concern but it
> is not. There are athletes with hypopituitarism that would have to spend
> thousands in order to make themselves "legal".
>
> I haven't ever looked into getting a TUE for hGH. Since the only really
> legitimate use is for children with GH deficiency, I have a hard time
> imagining that it would be possible to get TUE.
>
> Mike Murray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Jamie Mikami
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 08:56
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon
>
> Let them get caught at bigger races. I would prefer our OBRA money not be
> spent trying to catch cheats via drug testing, but do hate the thought of
> people wanting to cheat to win. But what if it is not that simple?
>
> I am sure I have both been beat by and beaten people who have used drugs,
> but so what, I am in this sport for me and to keep myself happy and healthy.
>
> I can get mad, or just enjoy the sport as I can and make my own choices. Do
> I really care if someone beats me at a state championship because they are
> getting HGH or testosterone from their doctor ... not really let them if
> that is all they want. If it was a gold medal at the olympics, I would be
> pissed however. Does it give them an edge, I think it does, especially for
> the masters riders, who are getting it is presribed by the doctor and maybe
> even paid in part by their health insurance. Does it move them up from cat
> 5 to 2 all by itself, no, they are still training and working out just as
> hard, likely harder ... because they just want to take it further.
>
> So while I think it is wrong to dope, is it really wrong for a masters rider
> to take HGH or testosterone from the doctor because they are below average
> or trying to improve their health? Should you put your health at risk just
> so that you can enter some bike races, which goes both for taking and not
> taking? should you be prevented from racing because you are actually low
> and do need a supplement? I think you can get a TUE for testosterone, so
> likely HGH as well? What about the new knee surgery and HGH, does that
> count as doping or just a TUE?
>
> I think we are going to have some serious issues in masters sports over the
> next few decades as we continue to figure out ways to limit aging that are
> actually good for you. I imagine going to the doctors and having them tell
> you hey, you are low in x and need to start taking y. It use to just be B
> and other vitamins, but who knows what is a perfectly healthy choice, and if
> it gives you an edge in cycling over the non takers .. what do you do? who
> do you tell?
>
> I have found the whole idea of drugs and sports that was once black and
> white to me as a teen and college kid evolve to something much more grey
> now. And while I am against drugs for the most part, I can't say what I
> will say to the doctor when he tells me they have a perfectly healthy
> solution to help me live longer and happier ... just take this little pill.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Mike Murray

TUE for testosterone is very difficult to get. It requires not only
demonstrating low testosterone levels but also showing several full anabolic
tests to demonstrate that your low testosterone is not due to suppression of
testosterone production by use of exogenous steroids. Simply demonstrating
primary hypogonadism or even pan hypopituitarism is not adequate. Bottom
line is that getting a TUE for testosterone is going to cost thousands of
dollars in testing alone. This sounds like only an academic concern but it
is not. There are athletes with hypopituitarism that would have to spend
thousands in order to make themselves "legal".

I haven't ever looked into getting a TUE for hGH. Since the only really
legitimate use is for children with GH deficiency, I have a hard time
imagining that it would be possible to get TUE.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jamie Mikami
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2012 08:56
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon

Let them get caught at bigger races. I would prefer our OBRA money not be
spent trying to catch cheats via drug testing, but do hate the thought of
people wanting to cheat to win. But what if it is not that simple?

I am sure I have both been beat by and beaten people who have used drugs,
but so what, I am in this sport for me and to keep myself happy and healthy.

I can get mad, or just enjoy the sport as I can and make my own choices. Do
I really care if someone beats me at a state championship because they are
getting HGH or testosterone from their doctor ... not really let them if
that is all they want. If it was a gold medal at the olympics, I would be
pissed however. Does it give them an edge, I think it does, especially for
the masters riders, who are getting it is presribed by the doctor and maybe
even paid in part by their health insurance. Does it move them up from cat
5 to 2 all by itself, no, they are still training and working out just as
hard, likely harder ... because they just want to take it further.

So while I think it is wrong to dope, is it really wrong for a masters rider
to take HGH or testosterone from the doctor because they are below average
or trying to improve their health? Should you put your health at risk just
so that you can enter some bike races, which goes both for taking and not
taking? should you be prevented from racing because you are actually low
and do need a supplement? I think you can get a TUE for testosterone, so
likely HGH as well? What about the new knee surgery and HGH, does that
count as doping or just a TUE?

I think we are going to have some serious issues in masters sports over the
next few decades as we continue to figure out ways to limit aging that are
actually good for you. I imagine going to the doctors and having them tell
you hey, you are low in x and need to start taking y. It use to just be B
and other vitamins, but who knows what is a perfectly healthy choice, and if
it gives you an edge in cycling over the non takers .. what do you do? who
do you tell?

I have found the whole idea of drugs and sports that was once black and
white to me as a teen and college kid evolve to something much more grey
now. And while I am against drugs for the most part, I can't say what I
will say to the doctor when he tells me they have a perfectly healthy
solution to help me live longer and happier ... just take this little pill.

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jamie Mikami

Let them get caught at bigger races. I would prefer our OBRA money not be
spent trying to catch cheats via drug testing, but do hate the thought of
people wanting to cheat to win. But what if it is not that simple?

I am sure I have both been beat by and beaten people who have used drugs,
but so what, I am in this sport for me and to keep myself happy and healthy.
I can get mad, or just enjoy the sport as I can and make my own choices. Do
I really care if someone beats me at a state championship because they are
getting HGH or testosterone from their doctor ... not really let them if
that is all they want. If it was a gold medal at the olympics, I would be
pissed however. Does it give them an edge, I think it does, especially for
the masters riders, who are getting it is presribed by the doctor and maybe
even paid in part by their health insurance. Does it move them up from cat
5 to 2 all by itself, no, they are still training and working out just as
hard, likely harder ... because they just want to take it further.

So while I think it is wrong to dope, is it really wrong for a masters rider
to take HGH or testosterone from the doctor because they are below average
or trying to improve their health? Should you put your health at risk just
so that you can enter some bike races, which goes both for taking and not
taking? should you be prevented from racing because you are actually low
and do need a supplement? I think you can get a TUE for testosterone, so
likely HGH as well? What about the new knee surgery and HGH, does that
count as doping or just a TUE?

I think we are going to have some serious issues in masters sports over the
next few decades as we continue to figure out ways to limit aging that are
actually good for you. I imagine going to the doctors and having them tell
you hey, you are low in x and need to start taking y. It use to just be B
and other vitamins, but who knows what is a perfectly healthy choice, and if
it gives you an edge in cycling over the non takers .. what do you do? who
do you tell?

I have found the whole idea of drugs and sports that was once black and
white to me as a teen and college kid evolve to something much more grey
now. And while I am against drugs for the most part, I can't say what I
will say to the doctor when he tells me they have a perfectly healthy
solution to help me live longer and happier ... just take this little pill.

Rick Johnson

Erik Long

Somebody get me a beer . . .

> From: eric939@redshift.com
> To: skbugco@gmail.com; obra@list.obra.org
> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2012 19:38:48 -0700
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon
>
>
> Then, look at the policy of USA Cycling regarding complaints about riders or
> investigations. The only requirement for investigators is that they are
> friends of the Technical Director. No training or anything.
>
> And the USAC policies regarding investigations instituted in 2011 include no
> due process, and in several places prohibit anybody from taking an issue
> into the court system.
>
> Does that sound legal? It doesn't to me.
>
> == Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The more important story around all this is the USADA's (a "private"
> company) ability to act really without regard to following the law of the
> land. While I'm in the screw Lance and everything about him camp, it's going
> to be interesting to see how this all sorts out.
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Eric

Then, look at the policy of USA Cycling regarding complaints about riders or
investigations. The only requirement for investigators is that they are
friends of the Technical Director. No training or anything.

And the USAC policies regarding investigations instituted in 2011 include no
due process, and in several places prohibit anybody from taking an issue
into the court system.

Does that sound legal? It doesn't to me.

== Eric

The more important story around all this is the USADA's (a "private"
company) ability to act really without regard to following the law of the
land. While I'm in the screw Lance and everything about him camp, it's going
to be interesting to see how this all sorts out.
_______________________________________________

Don Joling

Guess TAI will have to do a check on Kevin Andrews. He went from 5-2 this season. Kidding of course, he's just a rouleur.

Mikes right, no amount of PED's are going to get you from Cat IV pack fodder, to dominating in one season. It bridges the gap between 1st and 20th (perhaps) when the playing field is level.
And I've (and other masters around here) have beaten Kenny back in "the day".

The more important story around all this is the USADA's (a "private" company) ability to act really without regard to following the law of the land. While I'm in the screw Lance and everything about him camp, it's going to be interesting to see how this all sorts out.

Brandon

The real problem we face right now is the majority of pharmaceuticals used for doping are also used to increase yield in agricultural food production. I am a farm kid, who has seen beef cattle yields increase proportionately to advances in human medical research. So yes this may cause false positives.... I still think contador is an ASS!

What we might need to do as a society is determine acceptable use levels and tax the hell out of it. Steroids like alcohol and marlboro's are vices, used for a variety of reasons. Legalize, regulate, and Tax the heck out of it.

Cycling will never be clean, it's sad to say but I am willing to bet the amateur peloton is worse then the pros. Natural talent will always endure, and cheating will always exist. Wasting OBRA resources be it financial or human on testing athletes is a horrible idea. Let's spend that money on growing the youth of the sport and continuing to show how cycling benefits both the person and the community. In the end less then 1% of our peloton will ride at an international elite level anyways.

Brandon

On Sep 3, 2012, at 7:41 PM, "Mike Murray" wrote:

> Kenny Williams went positive for and admitting taking DHEA which is a weak
> androgen. By itself it clearly does not provide enough ergogenic or
> strength benefit to make it so that the user could beat anyone. Some people
> have pointed out that if he took this banned agent he might have also taken
> something else which had greater benefit. Maybe so. Regardless nothing has
> enough benefit to make a Cat 4 pack fill rider a Cat 2 rider.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Scarich
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 18:32
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon
>
> I know I should not do this, but I can't help but wade into this discussion.
> The original poster raises a valid concern; how do we know if the guy racing
> next to us is 'clean'. The fact is, we don't. Does it matter? Yes, it
> does. Ask all those guys who got their butts kicked by Kenny Williams back
> in the 90's how they feel about those races, in retrospect. If they really
> think about it, they are probably pissed off a bit, and wondering, could I
> have beat Kenny 'clean'? Probably not, but you never know. I raced against
> many former Olympians and Master's World Champions and I am sure some of
> them doped (virtually every world class cyclist back in the 70's and 80's
> probably did). Now, we all know that OBRA is not going to institute
> drug-testing. But, it's worth keeping it in the back of your mind, when
> that guy who Cat 4 pack fodder in the spring is suddenly upgraded to Cat 2
> in the Fall.
>
> PS For those who don't remember Kenny William's dominance, just Google him,
> and maybe add drugs in the search.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Brendon Gallant

I went from a cat 5 to cat 2 in a season, a few others have done the same.
Didn't realize beer was such a performance enhancer...

On Monday, September 3, 2012, Mike Murray wrote:
> Kenny Williams went positive for and admitting taking DHEA which is a weak
> androgen. By itself it clearly does not provide enough ergogenic or
> strength benefit to make it so that the user could beat anyone. Some
people
> have pointed out that if he took this banned agent he might have also
taken
> something else which had greater benefit. Maybe so. Regardless nothing
has
> enough benefit to make a Cat 4 pack fill rider a Cat 2 rider.
>
> Mike Murray
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Steve Scarich
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 18:32
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon
>
> I know I should not do this, but I can't help but wade into this
discussion.
> The original poster raises a valid concern; how do we know if the guy
racing
> next to us is 'clean'. The fact is, we don't. Does it matter? Yes, it
> does. Ask all those guys who got their butts kicked by Kenny Williams
back
> in the 90's how they feel about those races, in retrospect. If they
really
> think about it, they are probably pissed off a bit, and wondering, could I
> have beat Kenny 'clean'? Probably not, but you never know. I raced
against
> many former Olympians and Master's World Champions and I am sure some of
> them doped (virtually every world class cyclist back in the 70's and 80's
> probably did). Now, we all know that OBRA is not going to institute
> drug-testing. But, it's worth keeping it in the back of your mind, when
> that guy who Cat 4 pack fodder in the spring is suddenly upgraded to Cat 2
> in the Fall.
>
> PS For those who don't remember Kenny William's dominance, just Google
him,
> and maybe add drugs in the search.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Brendon Gallant
Assistant GM/Systems Admin
The Motorcycle Shop
Anchorage, AK
907.561.1165

Mike Murray

Kenny Williams went positive for and admitting taking DHEA which is a weak
androgen. By itself it clearly does not provide enough ergogenic or
strength benefit to make it so that the user could beat anyone. Some people
have pointed out that if he took this banned agent he might have also taken
something else which had greater benefit. Maybe so. Regardless nothing has
enough benefit to make a Cat 4 pack fill rider a Cat 2 rider.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Scarich
Sent: Monday, September 03, 2012 18:32
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Doping in Oregon

I know I should not do this, but I can't help but wade into this discussion.
The original poster raises a valid concern; how do we know if the guy racing
next to us is 'clean'. The fact is, we don't. Does it matter? Yes, it
does. Ask all those guys who got their butts kicked by Kenny Williams back
in the 90's how they feel about those races, in retrospect. If they really
think about it, they are probably pissed off a bit, and wondering, could I
have beat Kenny 'clean'? Probably not, but you never know. I raced against
many former Olympians and Master's World Champions and I am sure some of
them doped (virtually every world class cyclist back in the 70's and 80's
probably did). Now, we all know that OBRA is not going to institute
drug-testing. But, it's worth keeping it in the back of your mind, when
that guy who Cat 4 pack fodder in the spring is suddenly upgraded to Cat 2
in the Fall.

PS For those who don't remember Kenny William's dominance, just Google him,
and maybe add drugs in the search.
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Scarich

I know I should not do this, but I can't help but wade into this discussion. The original poster raises a valid concern; how do we know if the guy racing next to us is 'clean'. The fact is, we don't. Does it matter? Yes, it does. Ask all those guys who got their butts kicked by Kenny Williams back in the 90's how they feel about those races, in retrospect. If they really think about it, they are probably pissed off a bit, and wondering, could I have beat Kenny 'clean'? Probably not, but you never know. I raced against many former Olympians and Master's World Champions and I am sure some of them doped (virtually every world class cyclist back in the 70's and 80's probably did). Now, we all know that OBRA is not going to institute drug-testing. But, it's worth keeping it in the back of your mind, when that guy who Cat 4 pack fodder in the spring is suddenly upgraded to Cat 2 in the Fall.

PS For those who don't remember Kenny William's dominance, just Google him, and maybe add drugs in the search.