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Upgrading- should the rules be changed

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Jake Orness

2003-03-15

Yes,

You are right, providing the rider acutally give's pointers and tips...

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: JM Newman [mailto:newm-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Fri 3/14/2003 11:41 AM

To: wind-@hevanet.com; Jake Orness

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

As the first few races of the year are a bit sketchy in all categories (even the pro's) wouldn't it be most benificial for a rider who has experienced the highest levels of racing and maintains his "pack skills," years after having competed as a pro or semi-pro, to be willing to share his experience with lower category riders? Whether in a race, or with a club. What an awesome chance to share years of knowledge and experience with tomorrows' champions. Even for just the few races one might cram into a busy schedule?

Sometimes racing can be about more than kicking ass and upgrading.

-James

>From: Peter Drake

>Reply-To: wind-@hevanet.com

>To: JakeO-@giantbicycle.com

>CC: ob-@topica.com

>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:06:04 -0700

>

>Jake,

>

>I must be missing something here, this doesn't add up for me. To get from

>cat. 5 to cat. 4 you only need experience in one mass start race. How did

>you remain a 5 for two years? To get from 4 to 3 you need 15 points, and

>winning every race you entered would net between 21 and 28 points. From 3

>to 2 requires 25 points, maybe you only entered three races that year?

>

>What other evidence are you suggesting be considered for upgrading outside

>of the regular criteria?

>

>Regards,

>

>Peter Drake

>

>p.s. Candi - No lightening please.

>

>----- Original Message -----

>From: "Jake Orness"

>To: ; "obra"

>Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:58 PM

>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

>

>

> > Candi,

> > Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for a

>few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4 races

>per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in Southern

>California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

> >

> > My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

>participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year for

>the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I attempted a

>number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2 years (I won

>every race I entered but my previous years points would not carry over.) I

>was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the rules. It was very

>frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as well as enough racers

>complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with the

>same results (both winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger". The next

>year they still would not upgrade me, even with with a petition. I

>suffered a mountain bike accident before the season started, and have not

>raced since.

> >

> > I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

>this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but not

>from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost any "pack

>skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or 5's- I cannot

>afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may have (4's or 5's

>out there- please don't take this as a put down- you guys pay my bills thank

>you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's or

>experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on racing for

>couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro, cat

>1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's, and

>5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

> >

> > Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a case

>by case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is worthy of

>racing another level then they should.

> >

> > Just my two cents from personal experience.

> >

> > Jake

> >

> > -----Original Message-----

> > From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

> > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

> > To: obra

> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

> >

> >

> > A little background first.

> > I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that capacity,

> > we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

>upgrade

> > from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

> > Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the criteria

>and

> > agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

>would

> > let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally. That

>has

> > been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I kept

>the

> > exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

>honored

> > our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say "Oregon

> > riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

> > I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I have a

> > question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the

>people

> > who know.

> >

> > I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting the

> > minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who ride

> > with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to be

>Cat

> > 1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

>have

> > people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't earn

> > the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I want

>to

> > see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just the

> > weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended ones.

> > So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders 'feel'

> > they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in a

> > pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong way to

> > word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the criteria

>to

> > determine upgrades?

> > Please let me know your thoughts?

> >

> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

> > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

> >

> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

> > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

> >

> >

> >

>

>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

>

_____

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mike.m-@obra.org

2003-03-14

I suspect that Jake must be confusing USCF and OBRA since he has never

asked for an OBRA upgrade. As described he easily met criteria to move

to at least Cat 3. If USCF messed up assigning him an appropriate

category that will be no surprise to anyone.

Moving from Cat 5 to Cat 4 only requires asking. Here is no reason that

anyone would be forced to remain a Cat 5 for 2 years. Moving from Cat 4

to Cat 3 requires minimal race results. Winning "every race I entered"

moves you to Cat 3 VERY quickly. You only need to win 4 Cat 3 races

(with adequate field size) in order to move from Cat 3 to Cat 2. In

fact, if you win everything you only need to enter, from the very start

of your bike racing, 6 total races, of adequate field size, in order to

become a Cat 2.

Moving to Cat 3 does not require much. Moving from Cat 3 to 2 is where

the strict criteria are. Placing well in minimally attended races does

not, and should not count.

Jake asks that there case by case evaluation of evidence but in the

absence of race placing what other evidence is there to consider?

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jake Orness [mailto:JakeO-@giantbicycle.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 8:58 PM

To: cmur-@obra.org; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Candi,

Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for a

few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4

races per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in

Southern California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year

for the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I

attempted a number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2

years (I won every race I entered but my previous years points would not

carry over.) I was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the

rules. It was very frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as

well as enough racers complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I

continued racing as a 3 with the same results (both winning and being

chastised as a "sandbagger". The next year they still would not upgrade

me, even with with a petition. I suffered a mountain bike accident

before the season started, and have not raced since.

I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but

not from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost

any "pack skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or

5's- I cannot afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may

have (4's or 5's out there- please don't take this as a put down- you

guys pay my bills thank you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing-

it is not for ex pro's or experienced racers who have had life's

priorities put a hold on racing for couple years. It is just as

dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro, cat 1, or cat 2 to race with

4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's, and 5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a

case by case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is

worthy of racing another level then they should.

Just my two cents from personal experience.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that

capacity,

we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

upgrade

from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the criteria

and

agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

would

let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally. That

has

been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I kept

the

exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

honored

our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say "Oregon

riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I have a

question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the

people

who know.

I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting

the

minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who ride

with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to be

Cat

1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

have

people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't

earn

the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I

want to

see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just the

weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended

ones.

So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders 'feel'

they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in a

pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong way

to

word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the criteria

to

determine upgrades?

Please let me know your thoughts?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

mike.m-@obra.org

2003-03-14

Either your recall is wrong or the interpretation of the criteria was

wrong because the criteria you list are not what has been used by USCF

or OBRA.

It would certainly be possible to incorporate experience in other

cycling disciplines or testimony from other riders but if we were to do

this it would be inconsistent with the system that USCF if using. This

alone would be a problem.

In addition, I am not so sure that ability in one discipline is all that

transferable to other disciplines. I am a Cat 2 track rider but if I

were to ever ride a mountain bike race I would likely not even be

competitive as a beginner. There are Cat 1 road riders who are, and

should be, Cat 4 track riders.

Testimony for others is also likely to be of little value. First, being

able to hang on a training ride with a few guys is not very predictive

of ability to ride safely and competatively in a 100 man field. In

addition, bike racers have been known to be less than truthful on

occasion. ("I'm to tired to pull. I won't sprint.")

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Jake Orness [mailto:JakeO-@giantbicycle.com]

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 9:46 AM

To: wind-@hevanet.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Peter,

I was racing USCF in So. Cal. The rules were different.

I believe (this is from memory) to move from 5 to 4 you were required to

have 10 mass starts, or five top five's in a calendar year.

To move from 4 to 3 required roughly double the requirement.

I am suggesting Candi take into account a riders prior experience- from

another sanction, what category they may be in another discipline (road,

mountain) as well as signatures from any number of riders in the

category they wish to ride. That is all I'm saying.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Peter Drake [mailto:wind-@hevanet.com]

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:06 AM

To: Jake Orness

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Jake,

I must be missing something here, this doesn't add up for me. To get

from

cat. 5 to cat. 4 you only need experience in one mass start race. How

did

you remain a 5 for two years? To get from 4 to 3 you need 15 points,

and

winning every race you entered would net between 21 and 28 points. From

3

to 2 requires 25 points, maybe you only entered three races that year?

What other evidence are you suggesting be considered for upgrading

outside

of the regular criteria?

Regards,

Peter Drake

p.s. Candi - No lightening please.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jake Orness" <JakeO-@giantbicycle.com>

To: <cmur-@obra.org>; "obra" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:58 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Candi,

Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for

a

few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4

races

per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in

Southern

California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year

for

the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I attempted

a

number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2 years (I won

every race I entered but my previous years points would not carry over.)

I

was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the rules. It was very

frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as well as enough racers

complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with

the

same results (both winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger". The

next

year they still would not upgrade me, even with with a petition. I

suffered a mountain bike accident before the season started, and have

not

raced since.

I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but

not

from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost any

"pack

skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or 5's- I

cannot

afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may have (4's or

5's

out there- please don't take this as a put down- you guys pay my bills

thank

you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's

or

experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on racing

for

couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro,

cat

1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's,

and

5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a

[mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that

capacity,

we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

upgrade

from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the

criteria

and

agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

would

let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally.

That

has

been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I

kept

the

exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

honored

our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say

"Oregon

riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I have

a

question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the

people

who know.

I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting

the

minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who

ride

with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to

be

Cat

1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

have

people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't

earn

the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I

want

to

see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just

the

weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended

ones.

So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders

'feel'

they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in

a

pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong

way to

word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the

criteria

to

determine upgrades?

Please let me know your thoughts?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

llsm-@veloski.com

2003-03-14

OK folks...if category designation is a safety consideration, then why

can promoters arbitrarily combine dis-similar categories at their sole

discretion? So it seems that riders are earning their category upgrades

for other than safety considerations; perhaps bragging rights, access to

longer races and maybe larger prize lists. If the rider has to be a Cat

3 to ride with the Cat 3's, then riders should not be forced to ride

with Cat 4s simply because the promoter wanted to combine the fields.

It appears that the category designations are there to keep riders in

their place, but promoters can usurp the designation whenever it suits

their needs.

I say if you want the riders to respect the category upgrade process,

then the officials should hold the promoters to the same standards. As

an old promoter I fully understand the desire to combine fields, but

then what's the point of having category upgrade standards? Maybe it's

the American way in action; money talks and ______walks.

Larry Smith

Riding and sliding...Europe and North America

www.veloski.com

Eric Kytola

2003-03-14

UPGRADING

From a Cat 3 to a Cat 2

25 points earned by placing in the top 6 (7,5,4,3,2,1) of Cat 3 events with

a minimum field of 50 riders

i assumed:

1. all races counted had over 50 riders

2. no weekly series points were counted, inculding the weekly PIR races

after spending considerable time tally points. i have found exactly one

single rider who earned over 25 points Sam Schartz. i can't beleive that is

what Oregon racing is after, a single upgrade into the cat2s per year.

Eric Kytola

my unofficial list of those who earned over 20 points.

Schartz = 28

Mikkel = 22

Garcia = 21

Robinson = 21

Pennington = 20

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that capacity,

we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to upgrade

from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the criteria and

agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but would

let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally. That has

been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I kept the

exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they honored

our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say "Oregon

riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I have a

question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the people

who know.

I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting the

minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who ride

with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to be Cat

1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you have

people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't earn

the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I want to

see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just the

weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended ones.

So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders 'feel'

they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in a

pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong way to

word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the criteria to

determine upgrades?

Please let me know your thoughts?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Erik Long

2003-03-14

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>

<P>"What's wrong with being a cat 3... not enough status?"</P>

<P>Well, Jerry, I wouldn't be the only person to tell you that if status is what someone is looking for, they're not going to get it by racing bicycles. At least, not outside of our tiny sub-culture. Even then, winning at the Category 3 level seems to hold a little more prestige than a pack finish in the Pro/1/2's.</P></DIV>

<P>As for allowing a licensed Cat. 3 to race in a Pro/1/2 field when there's plenty of room in a separate 3's race, it shouldn't happen. Categories exist for a reason.</P>

<P>To quote Tyler Derten, "Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken."</P>

<P>Similarly, if a rider wants to step up to the next level, it needs to be done through training and racing and actually becoming a Cat 2. Showing "good reason to the organizer and his chief official" means showing them a license with at least a "2" on it. If that 3 wants to stay a 3, then they need to compete with the 3's.</P>

<DIV></DIV>

<P>If you want to ride with the Pro/1/2's, you have to earn the right, just as they did. Just like all of the Cat 1's and 2's who may be trying to get on a Pro team. Nobody's going to hand them a spot on a Division 3 team just because they ask nicely and say, "well, I finished with the pack in a stage of the Cascade Classic . . .". A rider needs the strength, fitness and savvy in order to advance to the next level and it has to be proven.</P>

<DIV></DIV>

<P>There is no other arguement.</P>

<DIV></DIV>

<P> </P>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV>-Erik J. Long</DIV>

<DIV>Proven Cat 2.</DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>From: Jerald M Powell <JPOW-@SPIRITONE.COM>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: jpow-@spiritone.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To: cmur-@obra.org

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>CC: obra <OB-@TOPICA.COM>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Date: 14 Mar 2003 09:38:17 -0800

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>It seems to me that a cat 3 rider that really wants to ride in a higher category race is likely to be permitted to, at least locally... given that he/she can present a good reason to the organizer and his chief official. In my experience as an official, I've never kept a rider out of a race that I thought he/she could do. As a rider I've carried my cat 3 licence to four national (Masters) medals and to Masters Worlds without being too embarrassed by it. As a coach, I routinely see highly skilled cat 3's and cat 2's that are unskilled, dangerous and arrogant about it.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Candi's right, there's too much opportunity for the category system to get out of whack as it is without further eroding its meaningfulness. The purpose of the system is to stimulate good racing, not to create a social elite. What's wrong with being a cat 3... not enough status?

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Jerry

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>At 4:47 PM -0800 03/13/03, Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn wrote:

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>A little background first.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>capacity,

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>upgrade

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>New

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>criteria and

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3,

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>but would

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>That has

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>kept the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>honored

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>"Oregon

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>have a

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>the people

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>who know.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>meeting the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>ride

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>be Cat

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>you have

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>earn

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>want to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>ones.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>'feel'

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>in a

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>way to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>criteria to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>determine upgrades?

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>Please let me know your thoughts?

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>--

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Jerry Powell

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>USAC Elite Cycling Coach

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>1445 SW Harrison Street

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Portland Oregon, 97201

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>(503) 222-7173 (office)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>(503) 699-0864 (home)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>(503) 799-7823 (mobile)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>jpow-@spiritone.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

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</html>

Dye, Todd/CVO

2003-03-14

I guess I'm a little perplexed by all this.

With the trend of races going to 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 only fields, most of

the arguments seem meaningless to me.

If I read the upgrade criteria correctly, it looks like a strong rider

who was new to road racing could possibly upgrade from Cat 5 to Cat 4

after one mass start event. If they placed in that first event, they

could then place in two more events to earn their points to upgrade from

Cat 4 to Cat 3. The next race after that as a Cat 3, they could choose

to ride in a 1/2/3 field instead of the 3/4/5.

While they wouldn't be considered a Cat 2, they would be riding in the

same pack, after only 3 races worth of experience.

While this probably won't happen very often, it seems like if you are

really that much stronger than the rest of your category, you'll move up

pretty quickly.

Todd Dye

Corvallis, OR

-----Original Message-----

From: Mark Jenkins [mailto:mjen-@marylhurst.edu]

Sent: March 14, 2003 10:01 AM

To: 'wind-@hevanet.com'; JakeO-@giantbicycle.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

I'm not sure it's about lightening up -- it may be about creating a

parallel assessment process that has more to do with a more

comprehensive understanding of riding skill and less to do with raw

results. Winning or placing doesn't mean you're not a jerk, nor does it

mean that you hold your line in a sprint or a that it's safe to ride

behind you in a pack, regardless of what the proponents of informal

'pack justice' would like to believe.

It seems that the primary measures should all have to do with hours or

races run -- that part of the standard makes sense. With an e-bay

seller, a certain number of transactions that are trouble free leads to

a preponderance of high ratings from e-bay (whose reputation is also at

stake) and from peers (whose opinions on who is in the community and

their value really counts). In a race, a forever-midpack rider can be

both fast and safe

-- if he or she wants to upgrade after a certain time, based purely on

skill and experience, and can sustain a role as a break chaser or

domestique in a higher category, then why not? If someone has logged

X-number of safe and productive hours in the community of their class,

then that might be a good rationale for an upgrade. As a byproduct it

might also produce a role between 'pack fodder' and 'winners' where

actual teamwork (!) might find it's way into the lower classes alongside

power and strength.

In the related matter of the once-great ;>, private pilots who've been

out of the cockpit for a time have to demonstrate skill in a controlled

environment -- maybe there's a way outside of big races to allow people

to demonstrate that they've attained the level they once had, or at

least that it's a matter of both less and more than fitness and speed --

that learning and experience are lifelong in ways that fitness and speed

may not be.

Outside of a complete an unlikely overhaul, the upgrade rules are

probably fine, and if the goal is consistency with (rather than

difference from) a national sanctioning body, then it wouldn't seem

advisable to do anything that could be construed by anyone as

'lightening up'.

-----Original Message-----

From: Peter Drake [mailto:wind-@hevanet.com]

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:06 AM

To: JakeO-@giantbicycle.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Jake,

I must be missing something here, this doesn't add up for me. To get

from cat. 5 to cat. 4 you only need experience in one mass start race.

How did you remain a 5 for two years? To get from 4 to 3 you need 15

points, and winning every race you entered would net between 21 and 28

points. From 3 to 2 requires 25 points, maybe you only entered three

races that year?

What other evidence are you suggesting be considered for upgrading

outside of the regular criteria?

Regards,

Peter Drake

p.s. Candi - No lightening please.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jake Orness" <JakeO-@giantbicycle.com>

To: <cmur-@obra.org>; "obra" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:58 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Candi,

Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for

a

few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4

races per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in

Southern California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year

for the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I

attempted a number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2

years (I won every race I entered but my previous years points would not

carry over.) I was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the

rules. It was very frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as

well as enough racers

complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with

the same results (both winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger".

The next year they still would not upgrade me, even with with a

petition. I suffered a mountain bike accident before the season

started, and have not raced since.

I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but

not from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost

any "pack skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or

5's- I cannot afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may

have (4's or 5's out there- please don't take this as a put down- you

guys pay my bills thank

you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's

or experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on

racing for couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with

skills of a pro, cat 1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to

send a bunch of 4's, and 5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a

case

by case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is worthy

of racing another level then they should.

Just my two cents from personal experience.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn

[mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that

capacity, we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the

rules to

upgrade

from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the

criteria

and

agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

would

let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally.

That

has

been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I

kept

the

exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

honored

our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say

"Oregon riders are upgraded on lesser standards") I have been around a

long time, never really as a racer so when I have a question that

pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the

people

who know.

I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting

the minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people

who ride with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who

used to be

Cat

1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

have

people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't

earn the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'.

I want

screaming downhill in a pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there?

Or is that the wrong way to word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a

pack of 50+ riders the criteria

to

determine upgrades?

Please let me know your thoughts?

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

JM Newman

2003-03-14

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>

<P>As the first few races of the year are a bit sketchy in all categories (even the pro's) wouldn't it be most benificial for a rider who has experienced the highest levels of racing and maintains his "pack skills," years after having competed as a pro or semi-pro, to be willing to share his experience with lower category riders? Whether in a race, or with a club. What an awesome chance to share years of knowledge and experience with tomorrows' champions. Even for just the few races one might cram into a busy schedule?</P>

<P>Sometimes racing can be about more than kicking ass and upgrading.</P>

<P>-James<BR><BR></P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>>From: Peter Drake <WIND-@HEVANET.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>Reply-To: wind-@hevanet.com

<DIV></DIV>>To: JakeO-@giantbicycle.com

<DIV></DIV>>CC: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

<DIV></DIV>>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:06:04 -0700

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Jake,

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>I must be missing something here, this doesn't add up for me. To get from

<DIV></DIV>>cat. 5 to cat. 4 you only need experience in one mass start race. How did

<DIV></DIV>>you remain a 5 for two years? To get from 4 to 3 you need 15 points, and

<DIV></DIV>>winning every race you entered would net between 21 and 28 points. From 3

<DIV></DIV>>to 2 requires 25 points, maybe you only entered three races that year?

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>What other evidence are you suggesting be considered for upgrading outside

<DIV></DIV>>of the regular criteria?

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Regards,

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>Peter Drake

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>p.s. Candi - No lightening please.

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>----- Original Message -----

<DIV></DIV>>From: "Jake Orness" <JAKEO-@GIANTBICYCLE.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>To: <CMUR-@OBRA.ORG>; "obra" <OB-@TOPICA.COM>

<DIV></DIV>>Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:58 PM

<DIV></DIV>>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>> > Candi,

<DIV></DIV>> > Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for a

<DIV></DIV>>few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4 races

<DIV></DIV>>per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in Southern

<DIV></DIV>>California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

<DIV></DIV>>participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year for

<DIV></DIV>>the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I attempted a

<DIV></DIV>>number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2 years (I won

<DIV></DIV>>every race I entered but my previous years points would not carry over.) I

<DIV></DIV>>was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the rules. It was very

<DIV></DIV>>frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as well as enough racers

<DIV></DIV>>complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with the

<DIV></DIV>>same results (both winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger". The next

<DIV></DIV>>year they still would not upgrade me, even with with a petition. I

<DIV></DIV>>suffered a mountain bike accident before the season started, and have not

<DIV></DIV>>raced since.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

<DIV></DIV>>this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but not

<DIV></DIV>>from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost any "pack

<DIV></DIV>>skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or 5's- I cannot

<DIV></DIV>>afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may have (4's or 5's

<DIV></DIV>>out there- please don't take this as a put down- you guys pay my bills thank

<DIV></DIV>>you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's or

<DIV></DIV>>experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on racing for

<DIV></DIV>>couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro, cat

<DIV></DIV>>1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's, and

<DIV></DIV>>5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a case

<DIV></DIV>>by case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is worthy of

<DIV></DIV>>racing another level then they should.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Just my two cents from personal experience.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > Jake

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > -----Original Message-----

<DIV></DIV>> > From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

<DIV></DIV>> > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

<DIV></DIV>> > To: obra

<DIV></DIV>> > Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > A little background first.

<DIV></DIV>> > I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that capacity,

<DIV></DIV>> > we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

<DIV></DIV>>upgrade

<DIV></DIV>> > from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

<DIV></DIV>> > Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the criteria

<DIV></DIV>>and

<DIV></DIV>> > agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

<DIV></DIV>>would

<DIV></DIV>> > let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally. That

<DIV></DIV>>has

<DIV></DIV>> > been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I kept

<DIV></DIV>>the

<DIV></DIV>> > exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

<DIV></DIV>>honored

<DIV></DIV>> > our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say "Oregon

<DIV></DIV>> > riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

<DIV></DIV>> > I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I have a

<DIV></DIV>> > question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the

<DIV></DIV>>people

<DIV></DIV>> > who know.

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting the

<DIV></DIV>> > minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who ride

<DIV></DIV>> > with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to be

<DIV></DIV>>Cat

<DIV></DIV>> > 1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

<DIV></DIV>>have

<DIV></DIV>> > people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't earn

<DIV></DIV>> > the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I want

<DIV></DIV>>to

<DIV></DIV>> > see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just the

<DIV></DIV>> > weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended ones.

<DIV></DIV>> > So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders 'feel'

<DIV></DIV>> > they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in a

<DIV></DIV>> > pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong way to

<DIV></DIV>> > word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the criteria

<DIV></DIV>>to

<DIV></DIV>> > determine upgrades?

<DIV></DIV>> > Please let me know your thoughts?

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>> > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>> > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>> >

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>>

<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Add photos to your e-mail with <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMRENUS/2746">MSN 8.</a> Get 2 months FREE*.

</html>

Peter Murphy

2003-03-14

In USCF, in order to go from a Cat 4 to 3, 20 points in a 12 month period or

25 mass starts, with at least 10 with a top 10 finish.

And the USCF has automatic upgrade ctriteria to limit sandbagging.

From: Jake Orness <JakeO-@giantbicycle.com>

Reply-To: JakeO-@giantbicycle.com

To: wind-@hevanet.com

CC: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 09:46:28 -0800

Peter,

I was racing USCF in So. Cal. The rules were different.

I believe (this is from memory) to move from 5 to 4 you were required to

have 10 mass starts, or five top five's in a calendar year.

To move from 4 to 3 required roughly double the requirement.

I am suggesting Candi take into account a riders prior experience- from

another sanction, what category they may be in another discipline (road,

mountain) as well as signatures from any number of riders in the category

they wish to ride. That is all I'm saying.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Peter Drake [mailto:wind-@hevanet.com]

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:06 AM

To: Jake Orness

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Jake,

I must be missing something here, this doesn't add up for me. To get from

cat. 5 to cat. 4 you only need experience in one mass start race. How did

you remain a 5 for two years? To get from 4 to 3 you need 15 points, and

winning every race you entered would net between 21 and 28 points. From 3

to 2 requires 25 points, maybe you only entered three races that year?

What other evidence are you suggesting be considered for upgrading outside

of the regular criteria?

Regards,

Peter Drake

p.s. Candi - No lightening please.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jake Orness" <JakeO-@giantbicycle.com>

To: <cmur-@obra.org>; "obra" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:58 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Candi,

Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for a

few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4 races

per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in Southern

California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year

for

the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I attempted a

number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2 years (I won

every race I entered but my previous years points would not carry over.) I

was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the rules. It was very

frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as well as enough racers

complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with the

same results (both winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger". The next

year they still would not upgrade me, even with with a petition. I

suffered a mountain bike accident before the season started, and have not

raced since.

I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but

not

from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost any "pack

skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or 5's- I

cannot

afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may have (4's or 5's

out there- please don't take this as a put down- you guys pay my bills

thank

you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's or

experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on racing for

couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro,

cat

1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's, and

5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a

case

by case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is worthy of

racing another level then they should.

Just my two cents from personal experience.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that

capacity,

we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

upgrade

from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the criteria

and

agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

would

let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally. That

has

been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I kept

the

exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

honored

our classes then there would be no discrepancies (no one can say "Oregon

riders are upgraded on lesser standards")

I have been around a long time, never really as a racer so when I have a

question that pertains to pack quality I like to refer it back to the

people

who know.

I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting

the

minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who ride

with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to be

Cat

1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

have

people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't

earn

the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I

want

to

see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just the

weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended

ones.

So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders 'feel'

they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in a

pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong way

to

word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the criteria

_________________________________________________________________

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David Auker

2003-03-14

Yes, people should have to earn Cat 2 status with results if they are only

racing road.

Yes, people should have to earn expert status if they are only racing off

road.

But when someone has earned a high level of success in one discipline it

is

safe to assume that they have the fitness and skills to cross over.

Safe??

I've seen VERY strong MTB riders not have a clue about road racing's pack

choreography. Given a reasonable degree of fitness, road is about being

smart (obtainable only by experience). The major reason to strive to be a

Cat 1/2 is to ride amid a presumably high level of experience (and strength)

and rely on pack dynamics to somewhat resemble a finely-tuned ballet

company's finesse. If you've worked your way up through the categories, you

don't really want to worry about a MTB rider in the process of "crossing

over" (with strength and ability to hop large boulders at a single bound)

when you're doin' the echelon dance in a raging crosswind. Obviously

there's greater amount of both fun and safety to be expected in an

experienced pack. There's a definite learning curve; skill at avoiding

rocks and trees with dirt knobbies doesn't necessarily equal pack skills on

the pavement.

Cat 1 = Pro

Cat 2 = Pro or Expert

Cat 3 = Expert

If I were dictator, I would be comfy with the following for MTB riders

wanting to cross over to road:

Cat 1 = Earn it.

Cat 2 = Earn it.

Cat 3 = Pro or Expert

What does USCF do in such cases?

David Auker

Clif Bar/River City/TRC

(btw, I can't bunny hop worth scat, and I fully respect for the rigors of

MTB!!)

===========================================

----- Original Message -----

From: "Nyberg, Michael" <Michael-@Rodale.com>

To: <JakeO-@giantbicycle.com>; <cmur-@obra.org>; "obra"

<ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:39 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

But isn't there a policy in place to be consistent across disciplines for

situations like this??

Back when I raced NORBA I earned my way from Sport to Expert. I only did a

couple of road races a year but was allowed to race Cat 3 so I raced with

people at the same level. You sure don't want a Cat 2 to go to a mtb race

as

a sport (maybe not a Pro but he should be allowed to race expert) or have

Carl Decker show up at a road race as a Cat 4 because he hasn't "earned"

it.

Yes, people should have to earn Cat 2 status with results if they are only

racing road.

Yes, people should have to earn expert status if they are only racing off

road.

But when someone has earned a high level of success in one discipline it

is

safe to assume that they have the fitness and skills to cross over.

Road MTB

Cat 1 = Pro

Cat 2 = Pro or Expert

Cat 3 = Expert

Cat 4/5 = Sport

-----Original Message-----

From: Jake Orness [mailto:JakeO-@giantbicycle.com]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 8:58 PM

To: cmur-@obra.org; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Candi,

Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for a

few

years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4 races per

year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in Southern

California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

chastised

as a "sandbagger" but held back by the rules. It was very frustrating.

The

3rd year I made enough noise, as well as enough racers complained- so they

upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with the same results (both

winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger". The next year they still

would not upgrade me, even with with a petition. I suffered a mountain

bike accident before the season started, and have not raced since.

I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

this

time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but not

from

riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost any "pack

skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or 5's- I

cannot

afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may have (4's or 5's

out there- please don't take this as a put down- you guys pay my bills

thank

you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's or

experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on racing for

couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro,

cat

1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's, and

5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a case

by

case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is worthy of

racing another level then they should.

Just my two cents from personal experience.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that capacity,

we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to

upgrade

from one road category to another. We did this so that a Cat 2 in New

Jersey was equivalent to a Cat 2 in California. We defined the criteria

and

agreed that we could/would upgrade other states rider up to cat 3, but

would

let the particular state decide on Cat 2's and Cat 1's personally. That

has

been in force for quite some time. When OBRA separated from USAC I kept

the

exact same definitions so that if at any time we went back or they

people

who know.

I have heard from many riders who want to be upgraded without meeting the

minimums. People who do the noon Bend ride and keep up, people who ride

with their cat 1/2 friends and have no problems. People who used to be

Cat

1 or 2's 10 years ago and haven't competed since. Yes I know that you

have

people that can vouch for you. But my feeling has been if you can't earn

the points in actual races then you don't get any 'extra credit'. I want

to

see the results. I want those results in races that count, not just the

weekly series, not the lowly attended races, but the hotly contended ones.

So tell me, should I lighten up? Should I upgrade because riders 'feel'

they should be there? Do you care while you are screaming downhill in a

pack of 40 riders what skill levels are there? Or is that the wrong way to

word it? Is finishing in the top 7 of a pack of 50+ riders the criteria

Erik Voldengen

2003-03-14

If this is true, you should have no problem earning an upgrade

the right way. Candi, please don't "lighten up."

I don't know if I'll ever make it to Cat 2. I think I was getting

there a few years ago on the track, but now life is different. I'm

cool with that - I don't want anything I can't earn. Nor should

anyone else.

-Erik

John Lombard

2003-03-14

I would like to add that fitness should not be the only criteria for

upgrading. I have seen many riders who were very fit in other sports (even

another cycling discipline), but do not have the skills to be in higher

categories on the road. You only gain the skills by racing in that field in

a road race. I say this because I don't think that there are more than a

couple of teams out there that actually teach riders pack riding/racing

skills. Fortunately I am on one of those teams. Additionally, I have seen

officials take this into consideration when upgrading, or not upgrading,

someone to the next higher category.

John Lombard

-----Original Message-----

From: Peter Drake [mailto:wind-@hevanet.com]

Sent: Friday, March 14, 2003 8:06 AM

To: JakeO-@giantbicycle.com

Cc: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Jake,

I must be missing something here, this doesn't add up for me. To get from

cat. 5 to cat. 4 you only need experience in one mass start race. How did

you remain a 5 for two years? To get from 4 to 3 you need 15 points, and

winning every race you entered would net between 21 and 28 points. From 3

to 2 requires 25 points, maybe you only entered three races that year?

What other evidence are you suggesting be considered for upgrading outside

of the regular criteria?

Regards,

Peter Drake

p.s. Candi - No lightening please.

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jake Orness" <JakeO-@giantbicycle.com>

To: <cmur-@obra.org>; "obra" <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 9:58 PM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

Candi,

Yes you should lighten up. I raced as a Semi-pro (mountain bike) for a

few years. I trained 90% on the road, and did some road racing (3-4 races

per year.) I was respected in all the major group road rides in Southern

California as an excellent bike handler with pack skills.

My travel schedule from mountain bike racing prevented me from

participating in enough road races to earn enough points in a given year for

the correct road upgrade (I should have been a 2 minimum.) I attempted a

number of times- but to no avail- I remained a cat 5 for 2 years (I won

every race I entered but my previous years points would not carry over.) I

was chastised as a "sandbagger" but held back by the rules. It was very

frustrating. The 3rd year I made enough noise, as well as enough racers

complained- so they upgraded me to a 3. I continued racing as a 3 with the

same results (both winning and being chastised as a "sandbagger". The next

year they still would not upgrade me, even with with a petition. I

suffered a mountain bike accident before the season started, and have not

raced since.

I am planning on racing again soon, but again my travel schedule (work

this time) will prevent me from doing more than 3 or 4 races a year- but not

from riding and training- heck bikes are my job. I have not lost any "pack

skills" and don't want to subject myself to racing with 4's or 5's- I cannot

afford to crash due to the pack inexperience a 4 or 5 may have (4's or 5's

out there- please don't take this as a put down- you guys pay my bills thank

you.) Cat 4 and 5 is for someone new to racing- it is not for ex pro's or

experienced racers who have had life's priorities put a hold on racing for

couple years. It is just as dangerous for a racer with skills of a pro, cat

1, or cat 2 to race with 4's and 5's as it is to send a bunch of 4's, and

5's in a pro 1, 2 race.

Both OBRA and the USCF needs to accept petitions to be reviewed on a case

by case situation. If there is enough evidence that a rider is worthy of

racing another level then they should.

Just my two cents from personal experience.

Jake

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 4:48 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Upgrading- should the rules be changed

A little background first.

I was the USCF district Rep for about 8-10 years. While in that capacity,

we, the nationwide group of district reps, came up with the rules to