OBRA: OBRA Chat: Beginner CX sandbagging?

Ormerod, Gilbert

2012-10-08

On a related note, NYVelocity is pre-emptively starting a Marcelo Silva Defense Fund.

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Silva
Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 8:28 AM
To: Mark J. Ginsberg
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

no, this is bigger, we are starting a revolution...occupy obra :-)

________________________________
From: Mark J. Ginsberg
To: Marcelo Silva ; "cmurray@obra.org"
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

So this entire thread then boils down to Mr. Silva not liking the existing rules.

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com
________________________________
From: Marcelo Silva
To: "cmurray@obra.org"
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

well, i think it does, i don't see what is the big deal. next year they will be upgraded. let him/her enjoy their 5 min of fame

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: 'Marcelo Silva'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Marcelo
So take this scenario.
A rider starts his ccx season in September in the Beginner class and wins every race in September- which is 7 races just in the Portland area. You are saying that he should not be upgraded until December?
Does that really make sense?
Candi

PS Steven it is not the Crusade that he has problems with it is the GPTB

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Silva
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 1:34 PM
To: Steven Beardsley
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.

________________________________
From: Steven Beardsley
To: Marcelo Silva
Cc: "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen ; "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual meeting.

If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.

There is no point in arguing about it here.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva > wrote:
Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.

________________________________
From: "Ormerod, Gilbert" >
To: "'rondot@spiritone.com'" >; Chris Cortez >; Erik Voldengen >
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org" >
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Ron,

If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when you take Chemistry 201.

You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class, but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.

Gil

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of rondot@spiritone.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
To: Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Here is one for the officials.......................
If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......
Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED with them to the higher cat? It seems this would be a fair thing to do, but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.
ron

From: Chris Cortez
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM
To: Erik Voldengen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's mandatory downgrade email.

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?

The nature of racing IS to race hard.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva > wrote:
hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points, and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the incentive to race hard ???

________________________________
From: tony kic >
To: msilva01@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about getting better at it. -t
________________________________
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
From: msilva01@yahoo.com
To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!
________________________________
From: "rondot@spiritone.com" >
To: Thom Schoenborn >; Mikey McDonald >
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and other racers.
ron

From: Thom Schoenborn
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
To: Mikey McDonald
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)

(I tease because I love ya, Ron!)

On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald > wrote:

"Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.

________________________________
From: Candi Murray >
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?

I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20 points.
If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about it.
Otherwise just ride faster.
Candi

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Adam
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

hey all

I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
blind date races.

Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of C/master
C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in the
blind date and the GP races.

Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
fair.

You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.

so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only make
you better

Even though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of the
master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.

Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
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This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.

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This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.

Marcelo Silva

2012-10-08

no, this is bigger, we are starting a revolution...occupy obra :-)

________________________________
From: Mark J. Ginsberg
To: Marcelo Silva ; "cmurray@obra.org"
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Saturday, October 6, 2012 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

So this entire thread then boils down to Mr. Silva not liking the existing rules.

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Marcelo Silva
To: "cmurray@obra.org"
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

well, i think it does, i don't see what is the big deal. next year they will be upgraded. let him/her enjoy their 5 min of fame

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: 'Marcelo Silva'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Marcelo
So take this scenario.
A rider starts his ccx season in September in the Beginner class and wins every race in September- which is 7 races just in the Portland area. You are saying that he should not be upgraded until December?
Does that really make sense?
Candi

PS Steven it is not the Crusade that he has problems with it is the GPTB

From:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Silva
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 1:34 PM
To: Steven Beardsley
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.

________________________________

From:Steven Beardsley
To: Marcelo Silva
Cc: "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen ; "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual meeting.

If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.

There is no point in arguing about it here.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.

________________________________

From:"Ormerod, Gilbert"
To: "'rondot@spiritone.com'" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Ron,

If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when you take Chemistry 201.

You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class, but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.

Gil

From:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of rondot@spiritone.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
To: Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Here is one for the officials.......................
If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......
Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED with them to the higher cat? It seems this would be a fair thing to do, but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.
ron

From:Chris Cortez
Sent:Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM
To:Erik Voldengen
Cc:obra@list.obra.org
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's mandatory downgrade email.

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?

The nature of racing IS to race hard.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points, and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the incentive to race hard ???

________________________________

From:tony kic
To: msilva01@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about getting better at it. -t

________________________________

Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
From: msilva01@yahoo.com
To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!

________________________________

From:"rondot@spiritone.com"
To: Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and other racers.
ron

From:Thom Schoenborn
Sent:Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
To:Mikey McDonald
Cc:obra@list.obra.org
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)

(I tease because I love ya, Ron!)

On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald wrote:

>"Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From:Candi Murray
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
>I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
>results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20 points.
>If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
>are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about it.
>Otherwise just ride faster.
>Candi
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>Behalf Of Adam
>Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat]
Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>hey all
>
>I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
>blind date races.
>
>Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of C/master
>C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in the
>blind date and the GP races.
>
>Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
>beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
>beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
>fair.
>
>You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.
>
>so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
>to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only make
>you better
>
>Even
though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of the
>master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
>extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.
>
>Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version:
2013.0.2677 / Virus Database: 2591/5806 - Release Date: 10/02/12
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

________________________________

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This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.

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Mark J. Ginsberg

2012-10-06

So this entire thread then boils down to Mr. Silva not liking the existing rules.

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Marcelo Silva
To: "cmurray@obra.org"
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

well, i think it does, i don't see what is the big deal. next year they will be upgraded. let him/her enjoy their 5 min of fame

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: 'Marcelo Silva'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Marcelo
So take this scenario.
A rider starts his ccx season in September in the Beginner class and wins every race in September- which is 7 races just in the Portland area. You are saying that he should not be upgraded until December?
Does that really make sense?
Candi

PS Steven it is not the Crusade that he has problems with it is the GPTB

From:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Silva
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 1:34 PM
To: Steven Beardsley
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.

________________________________

From:Steven Beardsley
To: Marcelo Silva
Cc: "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen ; "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual meeting.

If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.

There is no point in arguing about it here.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.

________________________________

From:"Ormerod, Gilbert"
To: "'rondot@spiritone.com'" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Ron,

If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when you take Chemistry 201.

You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class, but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.

Gil

From:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of rondot@spiritone.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
To: Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Here is one for the officials.......................
If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......
Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED with them to the higher cat? It seems this would be a fair thing to do, but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.
ron

From:Chris Cortez
Sent:Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM
To:Erik Voldengen
Cc:obra@list.obra.org
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's mandatory downgrade email.

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?

The nature of racing IS to race hard.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points, and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the incentive to race hard ???

________________________________

From:tony kic
To: msilva01@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about getting better at it. -t

________________________________

Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
From: msilva01@yahoo.com
To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!

________________________________

From:"rondot@spiritone.com"
To: Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and other racers.
ron

From:Thom Schoenborn
Sent:Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
To:Mikey McDonald
Cc:obra@list.obra.org
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)

(I tease because I love ya, Ron!)

On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald wrote:

>"Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From:Candi Murray
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
>I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
>results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20 points.
>If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
>are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about it.
>Otherwise just ride faster.
>Candi
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>Behalf Of Adam
>Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>hey all
>
>I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
>blind date races.
>
>Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of C/master
>C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in the
>blind date and the GP races.
>
>Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
>beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
>beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
>fair.
>
>You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.
>
>so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
>to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only make
>you better
>
>Even
though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of the
>master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
>extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.
>
>Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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2013.0.2677 / Virus Database: 2591/5806 - Release Date: 10/02/12
>
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NW Cyclist

2012-10-06

it called "Strategery", a word created by president George W Bush, and the
cyclocross definition is: to race hard without getting upgraded until the
end of the season.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:

> hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do they
> give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team
> competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points,
> and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the
> incentive to race hard ???
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* tony kic
> *To:* msilva01@yahoo.com
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about getting
> better at it. -t
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
> From: msilva01@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
> i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the
> middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on
> last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points
> and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the
> slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "rondot@spiritone.com"
> *To:* Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald <
> bikeymikey04@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and
> other racers.
> ron
>
> *From:* Thom Schoenborn
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
> *To:* Mikey McDonald
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)
>
> (I tease because I love ya, Ron!)
>
> On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald
> wrote:
>
> "Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Candi Murray
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
> I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
> results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20
> points.
> If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
> are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about
> it.
> Otherwise just ride faster.
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Adam
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> hey all
>
> I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
> blind date races.
>
> Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of
> C/master
> C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in
> the
> blind date and the GP races.
>
> Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
> beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
> beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
> fair.
>
> You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.
>
> so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
> to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only
> make
> you better
>
> Even though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of
> the
> master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
> extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.
>
> Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2677 / Virus Database: 2591/5806 - Release Date: 10/02/12
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
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>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
>
>
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> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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>

Andy Kaylor

2012-10-05

There are going to be around 2000 people racing at Alpenrose on Sunday. Around 90% of us aren't going to finish in the top 10 in our race. Most of us will never win a race, and most of us are totally fine with that. We enjoy racing hard for 178th place, or whatever the best we can do is. I had a great time on Wednesday trying to beat Dave Otteman in the Master C race. He rode a great race and pulled out 90th place. I blew up on the third lap and fell to 93rd. It was a blast.

If you're one of the few people with a shot at the podium in any race, your goal should be to get to the A's (or maybe the Clydesdales if you're up to the challenge). Getting an upgrade, whenever that happens, is a step along that road. Once you've learned how to win in Beginner or Cat C, why would you stay there?

Winning a Cat C series is kind of like a baseball player winning the Single-A batting title. It's a nice accomplishment, but wouldn't you rather get a promotion to Double-A? When Candi sends out the weekly upgrade list, she doesn't say "Here are a bunch of people I caught sandbagging." She says, "Congrats!" And that's how we should all view it. It's a great accomplishment. Enjoy it. Then get out there and figure out how to beat people at the next level.

And for anyone grumbling about the top 20 in their Cat being sandbaggers, maybe try racing in Eugene. You'll probably still get stomped by a bunch of faster racers, but you might have a shot at the top 10. Plus, they put on some great races down there.

Mark J. Ginsberg

2012-10-05

in the lower categories if you keep winning, yes it does mean you get upgraded.

I totally would have won the King of Wompatuck back in 1991, but I kept winning and so i got upgraded. upgraded to cat 3.

it had a cool cat 4 leaders jersey and all.

sigh.

Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Benjamin Drucker
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

How does one score well in a series? If you do well enough to get in the lead, doesn't that mean you'll get a mandatory upgrade?
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Marcelo Silva

2012-10-05

well, i think it does, i don't see what is the big deal. next year they will be upgraded. let him/her enjoy their 5 min of fame

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: 'Marcelo Silva'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Marcelo
So take this scenario.
A rider starts his ccx season in September in the Beginner class and wins every race in September- which is 7 races just in the Portland area. You are saying that he should not be upgraded until December?
Does that really make sense?
Candi

PS Steven it is not the Crusade that he has problems with it is the GPTB

From:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Silva
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 1:34 PM
To: Steven Beardsley
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.

________________________________

From:Steven Beardsley
To: Marcelo Silva
Cc: "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen ; "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual meeting.

If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.

There is no point in arguing about it here.
On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.

________________________________

From:"Ormerod, Gilbert"
To: "'rondot@spiritone.com'" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Ron,

If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when you take Chemistry 201.

You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class, but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.

Gil

From:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of rondot@spiritone.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
To: Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Here is one for the officials.......................
If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......
Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED with them to the higher cat? It seems this would be a fair thing to do, but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.
ron

From:Chris Cortez
Sent:Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM
To:Erik Voldengen
Cc:obra@list.obra.org
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's mandatory downgrade email.

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?

The nature of racing IS to race hard.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points, and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the incentive to race hard ???

________________________________

From:tony kic
To: msilva01@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about getting better at it. -t

________________________________

Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
From: msilva01@yahoo.com
To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!

________________________________

From:"rondot@spiritone.com"
To: Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and other racers.
ron

From:Thom Schoenborn
Sent:Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
To:Mikey McDonald
Cc:obra@list.obra.org
Subject:Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)

(I tease because I love ya, Ron!)

On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald wrote:

>"Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From:Candi Murray
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
>I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
>results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20 points.
>If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
>are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about it.
>Otherwise just ride faster.
>Candi
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>Behalf Of Adam
>Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>hey all
>
>I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
>blind date races.
>
>Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of C/master
>C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in the
>blind date and the GP races.
>
>Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
>beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
>beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
>fair.
>
>You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.
>
>so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
>to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only make
>you better
>
>Even though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of the
>master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
>extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.
>
>Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
>-----
>No virus found in this message.
>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>Version: 2013.0.2677 / Virus Database: 2591/5806 - Release Date: 10/02/12
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>_______________________________________________
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________________________________

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Peter Gutwald

2012-10-05

Aaron Coker is a sandbagger. He races the Clydesdale category and always
wins. He should upgrade.

Oooops... sorry I just went through a timewarp which took me back to a
similar ridiculous e-mail chain from two years ago.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:

> well, the idea for debating here is to get enough grassroots support for
> the change :-)
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Steven Beardsley
> *To:* Marcelo Silva
> *Cc:* "obra@list.obra.org"
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 1:38 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Ya, we got that. You already sent three emails saying so.
>
> Upgrades are governed by OBRA rules, see here:
> http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
>
> If you want those rules changed, whining about it on OBRA Chat is not
> going to make it happen. Submit a request to change the rules to the
> Executive Director and it will be reviewed and voted on at the annual OBRA
> business meeting.
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
>
> i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i
> think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Steven Beardsley
> *To:* Marcelo Silva
> *Cc:* "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "
> rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez <
> chris@cagefreemedia.com>; Erik Voldengen ; "
> obra@list.obra.org"
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual
> meeting.
>
> If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk
> with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.
>
> There is no point in arguing about it here.
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
>
> Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go
> up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score
> points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score
> points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Ormerod, Gilbert"
> *To:* "'rondot@spiritone.com'" ; Chris Cortez <
> chris@cagefreemedia.com>; Erik Voldengen
> *Cc:* "obra@list.obra.org"
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Ron,
>
> If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when
> you take Chemistry 201.
>
> You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class,
> but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean
> slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.
>
> Gil
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *rondot@spiritone.com
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
> *To:* Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> *Here is one for the officials.......................*
> If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......
> *Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED
> with them to the higher cat?* It seems this would be a fair thing to do,
> but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers
> in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of
> racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start
> in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.
> ron
>
> *From:* Chris Cortez
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM
> *To:* Erik Voldengen
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up
> every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's
> mandatory downgrade email.
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:
>
>
> So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?
>
> The nature of racing IS to race hard.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
> hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do
> they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team
> competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points,
> and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the
> incentive to race hard ???
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* tony kic
> *To:* msilva01@yahoo.com
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about
> getting better at it. -t
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
> From: msilva01@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the
> middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on
> last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points
> and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the
> slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "rondot@spiritone.com"
> *To:* Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald <
> bikeymikey04@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and
> other racers.
> ron
>
> *From:* Thom Schoenborn
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
> *To:* Mikey McDonald
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)
>
> (I tease because I love ya, Ron!)
>
> On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald
> wrote:
>
>
> "Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Candi Murray
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
> I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
> results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20
> points.
> If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
> are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about
> it.
> Otherwise just ride faster.
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Adam
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> hey all
>
> I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
> blind date races.
>
> Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of
> C/master
> C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in
> the
> blind date and the GP races.
>
> Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
> beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
> beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
> fair.
>
> You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.
>
> so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
> to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only
> make
> you better
>
> Even though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of
> the
> master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
> extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.
>
> Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2677 / Virus Database: 2591/5806 - Release Date: 10/02/12
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
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>
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> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
>
> ------------------------------
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
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> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
> ------------------------------
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> OBRA mailing list
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> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ------------------------------
> This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
> contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
> disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are
> hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to
> anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have
> received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by
> reply email and delete this message.
>
> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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> _______________________________________________
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>
>

John

2012-10-05

Times and number of laps are all shown it would be a reasonably easy
(albeit a lot of work) to figure out the points as if you were in the C's
instead of the Beginners but there would have to be some sort of estimation
as the race time is roughly 10% longer.

SORRY Candi

John

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 1:50 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:

> well, the idea for debating here is to get enough grassroots support for
> the change :-)
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Steven Beardsley
> *To:* Marcelo Silva
> *Cc:* "obra@list.obra.org"
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 1:38 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Ya, we got that. You already sent three emails saying so.
>
> Upgrades are governed by OBRA rules, see here:
> http://www.obra.org/upgrade_rules.html
>
> If you want those rules changed, whining about it on OBRA Chat is not
> going to make it happen. Submit a request to change the rules to the
> Executive Director and it will be reviewed and voted on at the annual OBRA
> business meeting.
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
>
> i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i
> think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Steven Beardsley
> *To:* Marcelo Silva
> *Cc:* "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "
> rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez <
> chris@cagefreemedia.com>; Erik Voldengen ; "
> obra@list.obra.org"
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual
> meeting.
>
> If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk
> with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.
>
> There is no point in arguing about it here.
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
>
> Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go
> up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score
> points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score
> points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Ormerod, Gilbert"
> *To:* "'rondot@spiritone.com'" ; Chris Cortez <
> chris@cagefreemedia.com>; Erik Voldengen
> *Cc:* "obra@list.obra.org"
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Ron,
>
> If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when
> you take Chemistry 201.
>
> You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class,
> but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean
> slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.
>
> Gil
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *rondot@spiritone.com
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
> *To:* Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> *Here is one for the officials.......................*
> If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......
> *Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED
> with them to the higher cat?* It seems this would be a fair thing to do,
> but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers
> in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of
> racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start
> in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.
> ron
>
> *From:* Chris Cortez
> *Sent:* Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM
> *To:* Erik Voldengen
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up
> every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's
> mandatory downgrade email.
>
>
> On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:
>
>
> So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?
>
> The nature of racing IS to race hard.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:
> hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do
> they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team
> competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points,
> and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the
> incentive to race hard ???
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* tony kic
> *To:* msilva01@yahoo.com
> *Sent:* Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about
> getting better at it. -t
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
> From: msilva01@yahoo.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the
> middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on
> last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points
> and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the
> slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "rondot@spiritone.com"
> *To:* Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald <
> bikeymikey04@yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and
> other racers.
> ron
>
> *From:* Thom Schoenborn
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM
> *To:* Mikey McDonald
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)
>
> (I tease because I love ya, Ron!)
>
> On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald
> wrote:
>
>
> "Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Candi Murray
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
>
> I have upgraded at least 4-6 people every week. I carefully go through the
> results on Monday and send out notices to people who have amassed 20
> points.
> If I have missing anyone, it has been pointed out to me by the people they
> are beating. If I missed anyone obvious I am interested in hearing about
> it.
> Otherwise just ride faster.
> Candi
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
> Behalf Of Adam
> Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 9:46 AM
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?
>
> hey all
>
> I was just looking at my dismal performance in beginners this year at the
> blind date races.
>
> Time wise, the guys in the top 25 of beginners are in the top 60 of
> C/master
> C. I also see the same guys getting a top spot in each beginner race in
> the
> blind date and the GP races.
>
> Whats up? Why dont you move up a class? When you race that fast in a
> beginner class you are really just wrecking the race for the others in
> beginner since the laps are based on the race leader. Not really all that
> fair.
>
> You know you are better and you know you dominate the field.
>
> so nut up and cat up. You pay the same amount, get to race longer, and get
> to race against guys and gals that are stronger than you...it will only
> make
> you better
>
> Even though I pretty much suck, Im going to move up and pull the back of
> the
> master C pack along for the Crusades as well as the GPs. I get to race an
> extra 5 minutes. Somebody has to be last place.
>
> Better to be the back of the Cs than the first in beginners.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.2677 / Virus Database: 2591/5806 - Release Date: 10/02/12
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
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>
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>
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> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
> ------------------------------
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> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ------------------------------
> This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
> contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
> disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are
> hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to
> anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have
> received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by
> reply email and delete this message.
>
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>

Candi Murray

2012-10-05

Marcelo

So take this scenario.

A rider starts his ccx season in September in the Beginner class and wins every race in September- which is 7 races just in the Portland area. You are saying that he should not be upgraded until December?

Does that really make sense?

Candi

PS Steven it is not the Crusade that he has problems with it is the GPTB

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Marcelo Silva
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 1:34 PM
To: Steven Beardsley
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think cross crusade is fine...the upgrade mid-season is the issue, i think it should happen at the end of the season or calendar year.

_____

From: Steven Beardsley
To: Marcelo Silva
Cc: "Ormerod, Gilbert" ; "rondot@spiritone.com" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen ; "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Rules are Rules. If you want them changed, propose it at the annual meeting.

If you don't like how the Cross Crusade runs their series, you should talk with Brad about it. I would be happy to give you his contact info.

There is no point in arguing about it here.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Marcelo Silva wrote:

Exactly, but that happens next year, not in the same year...you don't go up to chemistry 201 before finishing 101...the cross crusades also score points based on how you finish, so it's not fair to race hard to score points and then be upgraded before the end of the series.

_____

From: "Ormerod, Gilbert"
To: "'rondot@spiritone.com'" ; Chris Cortez ; Erik Voldengen
Cc: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 11:42 AM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Ron,

If you get an “A” in Chemistry 101 you still have to start all over when you take Chemistry 201.

You may have worked hard to earn that “A” in the beginner Chemistry class, but you’re going to have to start the next level of Chemistry with a clean slate and prove, once again, that you’re an “A” student.

Gil

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of rondot@spiritone.com
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 11:19 AM
To: Chris Cortez; Erik Voldengen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Here is one for the officials.......................

If a person is upgraded from Beginner to C or C to B say......

Does this person take any percentage of the “points” they have EARNED with them to the higher cat? It seems this would be a fair thing to do, but needs to be tempered somewhat to not be an “advantage” over the racers in the upper cat who have been working hard in that higher level of racing. But it just seems to me the rider being upgraded should not start in the new cat at zero points. He / She worked hard to earn the upgrade.

ron

From: Chris Cortez

Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 10:40 AM

To: Erik Voldengen

Cc: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

What is the opposite of sandbagging? I think I'm doing that. I wake up every Monday morning surprised that I haven't yet received Candy's mandatory downgrade email.

On Oct 5, 2012, at 10:19 AM, Erik Voldengen wrote:

So...it's up to someone else to make you want to race hard?

The nature of racing IS to race hard.

On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Marcelo Silva wrote:

hhuumm..if it's not about winning why do they score points...why do they give cash prizes to categories other than As ??? why do they have team competition ??? if you start your season as a C, then score good points, and they move you up to a B and you have to start from scratch, what is the incentive to race hard ???

_____

From: tony kic
To: msilva01@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, October 5, 2012 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

that's missing the point. racing isn't about winning, it's about getting better at it. -t

_____

Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:50 -0700
From: msilva01@yahoo.com
To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

i think it's not right to move people to a different category in the middle of the season, that should be done before the season starts based on last years points. what is the point of racing hard to try to score points and win in that category if they move you up ??? may be it's good for the slow people, so they can just wait for the fast guys to be upgraded !!!

_____

From: "rondot@spiritone.com"
To: Thom Schoenborn ; Mikey McDonald
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, October 4, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Please translate..........it went right by me like most things and other racers.

ron

From: Thom Schoenborn

Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2012 2:46 PM

To: Mikey McDonald

Cc: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Beginner CX sandbagging?

Does someone want to pre-translate this zinger for Ron? ;-)

(I tease because I love ya, Ron!)

On Oct 3, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Mikey McDonald wrote:

"Otherwise just ride faster." hahahahaha- Pwned.

_____

From: Candi Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2012 11:57 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] FW: Beginner CX sandbagging?