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More serious center-line enforcement

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Pat Sagers

2003-03-19

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Your both right. Speaking for myself as a beginner racer, at the starting

line, my mind has been somewhat preoccupied. So I did hear the rule, but it

was kind of in one ear and out the other. When the 'rule' finally stopped

at my brain, my thought process was "what's the big deal, the road is

clear?". I know that is not correct thinking but as with many rules, unless

they are somehow enforced, people can see the rule as having no teeth. I

don't envy the officials trying to enforce something like that because I can

see how it is a very hard thing to apply. But without any reprocutions

there's no fear in breaking the rule. What I was saying in my previous post

was that I didn't 'get' the rule until I read several posts regarding the

reasoning behind the rule. So as Mike said "We should be heaping derision

on the offenders" no matter who they are.

I can say quite confidently that I now understand the rule and the reasons

why I need to keep it in mind during a race. Should I have a lapse during

the race as to where my bike is, I can count on my peers to loudly let me

know.

Thanks

-----Original Message-----

From: craig s [mailto:csina-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:43 PM

To: obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

" I guess my point would be that we need to verbally remind or instruct

those around us about the many safety issues that come up as many 'racers'

don't sit at a desk and read through this list's emails."--Pat Sagers

i agree and would suggest checking out the following link.

http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf

<http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf> section 17.1.2 states the

center line rule. also, in the last 5 or so years i've been racing under

the uscf and more recently obra, at the staging of nearly every race, the

official reminds everyone of the centerline rule as well as when/if it is

okay to cross the line ie the final 200m of a race, etc...

craig

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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<DIV>Your

both right. Speaking for myself as a beginner racer, at the starting line,

my mind has been somewhat preoccupied. So I did hear the

rule, but it was kind of in one ear and out the other.

When the 'rule' finally stopped at my brain, my thought process

was "what's the big deal, the road is clear?". I know

that is not correct thinking but as with many rules, unless they are somehow

enforced, people can see the rule as having no teeth. I don't envy the

officials trying to enforce something like that because I can see how it is a

very hard thing to apply. But without any reprocutions there's no fear in

breaking the rule. What I was saying in my previous post was that I

didn't 'get' the rule until I read several posts regarding the reasoning behind

the rule. So as Mike said "We should be heaping derision on the

offenders" no matter who they are.</DIV>

<DIV>I can

say quite confidently that I now understand the rule and the reasons why I need

to keep it in mind during a race. Should I have a lapse during the race as

to where my bike is, I can count on my peers to loudly let me

know.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Thanks</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: craig s

[mailto:csina-@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 5:43

PM To: obra Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious

center-line enforcement </DIV>

<DIV>" I guess my point would be that we need to verbally

remind or instruct those around us about the many safety issues that come up

as many 'racers' don't sit at a desk and read through this list's

emails."--Pat Sagers</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>i agree and would suggest checking out the following link. <A

href="http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf">http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf</A>

section 17.1.2 states the center line rule. also, in the last 5 or so

years i've been racing under the uscf and more recently obra, at the

staging of nearly every race, the official reminds everyone of the centerline

rule as well as when/if it is okay to cross the line ie the final 200m of a

race, etc...</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>craig</DIV><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>

</BODY></HTML>

 

 

NOTICE: This communication may contain proprietary or other confidential business information of Orcom Solutions, Inc. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating that fact and delete the copy you received. In addition, you should not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Thank you. 

 

 

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craig s

2003-03-18

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RE: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement" I guess my point would be that we need to verbally remind or instruct those around us about the many safety issues that come up as many 'racers' don't sit at a desk and read through this list's emails."--Pat Sagers

i agree and would suggest checking out the following link. http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf section 17.1.2 states the center line rule. also, in the last 5 or so years i've been racing under the uscf and more recently obra, at the staging of nearly every race, the official reminds everyone of the centerline rule as well as when/if it is okay to cross the line ie the final 200m of a race, etc...

craig

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<DIV>" I guess my point would be that we need to verbally

remind or instruct those around us about the many safety issues that come up as

many 'racers' don't sit at a desk and read through this list's emails."--Pat

Sagers</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>i agree and would suggest checking out the following link. <A

href="http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf">http://www.obra.org/pdfs/obra%20rules.pdf</A>

section 17.1.2 states the center line rule. also, in the last 5 or so

years i've been racing under the uscf and more recently obra, at the

staging of nearly every race, the official reminds everyone of the centerline

rule as well as when/if it is okay to cross the line ie the final 200m of a

race, etc...</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>craig</DIV>

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Pat Sagers

2003-03-18

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I think it should be noted that possibly half or more of the riders who

compete in the races don't belong to this email list. I crossed the yellow

line in my first race and was being warned by the trailing officials car,

but I honestly didn't know what they were referring to and I couldn't hear

exactly what they were saying. This year I went around a rider and crossed

over the line, but was told by some fellow riders that I had indeed broken

the rules. After reading many of the posts, I now understand the reasoning

for the rule more fully. I think that during a race it's easy to forget

that many of the cars that are passing you in either direction are

completely unaware of a race going on. I also believe its easy for racers to

fall into lapses of stupidity and carelessness driven by adrenaline. I

guess my point would be that we need to verbally remind or instruct those

around us about the many safety issues that come up as many 'racers' don't

sit at a desk and read through this list's emails.

-----Original Message-----

From: Chris Bright [mailto:Cbri-@pixelworks.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:55 AM

To: snjr; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

RR,

In the interest of public debate, I'm copying the OBRA list

on this side thread. OBRAers (or is that "OBRAites" or,

better yet, "OBRArians!"), you might want to read from the

bottom up in order to avoid confusion!

To me, it depends on the situation. If a rider is a danger

to himself or others - and I would put

centerline violations squarely in that category - then I

think the officials should pull them. I trust that our

officials aren't going to 'willy nilly' yank riders, they

need to be pretty damn sure. From time to time, someone may

be unjustly DQ'd, but that's a small price to pay. If you

can safely consult with the official on the road, then do so,

but you are obligated to accept the punishment.

In the case Candi described, two riders did not (after clear

communications) and should be suspended. No rider in the

history of racing has thought they were ever justly punished,

but we need to give our officials' decisions more teeth so

that the message sinks in. We can't afford Rasheed Wallaces

in the peloton, the stakes are too high.

Turning from enforcement to what started this thread: The

bottom line is we need to get out of the mindset that it's

okay to cross the center line. At Cherry Pie, I can't count

the number of riders who crossed the line and stayed there in

several cross-wind sections. They decided that since they

could see that there was no oncoming traffic they would stay

sheltered in the echelon since the yellow line isn't *really*

the gutter. We as riders need to start acting like it is,

even in the heat of competition. What if they were wrong?

In my opinion, they should've been booted, or at the very,

very minimum, the official should've neutralized the race and

given the pack a blanket warning. We need to put safety

first, not competition.

Oh, I'm feeling feisty today!

CB

-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:46 AM

To: Chris Bright

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

Chris, All valid points, riders must follow the directions of

the officials,

however, I would caution OBRA against simply pulling riders

from races for

several reasons.

1. In road races especially, pulled riders will no longer be

protected by

the caravan and will be on the road alone, many times with no

spare tires

etc.

2. In some circumstances, a rider should be able to complete

the race after

which a penalty and appeal process can be utilized. For

example, I was in a

crit where an official attempted to pull a group of four

riders I was in as

she thought we were lapped, with only four laps to go, when

in reality we

were chasing the break away. We refused to withdraw, and the

chief ref

agreed to let us stay in (this argument was carried out while we were

racing!). At the end of the race, the lap counts were

evaluated and in fact

we were found to be in 6th through 10th place. Had we been

removed from the

race, what then? A redo?

Unless a rider poses a danger to the other riders, I say let

them stay in

the race until the conclusion. Go through the penalty

process, and then

impose penalties, and if the penalty is suspension, so be it.

rr

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I think it should be noted that possibly half or more of the riders who compete in the races don't belong to this email list. I crossed the yellow line in my first race and was being warned by the trailing officials car, but I honestly didn't know what they were referring to and I couldn't hear exactly what they were saying. This year I went around a rider and crossed over the line, but was told by some fellow riders that I had indeed broken the rules. After reading many of the posts, I now understand the reasoning for the rule more fully. I think that during a race it's easy to forget that many of the cars that are passing you in either direction are completely unaware of a race going on. I also believe its easy for racers to fall into lapses of stupidity and carelessness driven by adrenaline. I guess my point would be that we need to verbally remind or instruct those around us about the many safety issues that come up as many 'racers' don't sit at a desk and read through this list's emails.

 

> -----Original Message-----

 > From: Chris Bright [<A HREF="mailto:Cbri-@pixelworks.com">mailto:Cbri-@pixelworks.com</A>]

 > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:55 AM

 > To: snjr; ob-@topica.com

 > Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

 > 

 > 

 > RR,

 > 

 > In the interest of public debate, I'm copying the OBRA list 

 > on this side thread. OBRAers (or is that "OBRAites" or, 

 > better yet, "OBRArians!"), you might want to read from the 

 > bottom up in order to avoid confusion!

 > 

 > To me, it depends on the situation. If a rider is a danger 

 > to himself or others - and I would put 

 > centerline violations squarely in that category - then I 

 > think the officials should pull them. I trust that our 

 > officials aren't going to 'willy nilly' yank riders, they 

 > need to be pretty damn sure. From time to time, someone may 

 > be unjustly DQ'd, but that's a small price to pay. If you 

 > can safely consult with the official on the road, then do so, 

 > but you are obligated to accept the punishment. 

 > 

 > In the case Candi described, two riders did not (after clear 

 > communications) and should be suspended. No rider in the 

 > history of racing has thought they were ever justly punished, 

 > but we need to give our officials' decisions more teeth so 

 > that the message sinks in. We can't afford Rasheed Wallaces 

 > in the peloton, the stakes are too high.

 > 

 > Turning from enforcement to what started this thread: The 

 > bottom line is we need to get out of the mindset that it's 

 > okay to cross the center line. At Cherry Pie, I can't count 

 > the number of riders who crossed the line and stayed there in 

 > several cross-wind sections. They decided that since they 

 > could see that there was no oncoming traffic they would stay 

 > sheltered in the echelon since the yellow line isn't *really* 

 > the gutter. We as riders need to start acting like it is, 

 > even in the heat of competition. What if they were wrong? 

 > In my opinion, they should've been booted, or at the very, 

 > very minimum, the official should've neutralized the race and 

 > given the pack a blanket warning. We need to put safety 

 > first, not competition. 

 > 

 > Oh, I'm feeling feisty today!

 > 

 > CB

 > 

 > -----Original Message-----

 > From: snjr [<A HREF="mailto:sn-@charter.net">mailto:sn-@charter.net</A>] 

 > Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:46 AM

 > To: Chris Bright

 > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

 > 

 > Chris, All valid points, riders must follow the directions of 

 > the officials,

 > however, I would caution OBRA against simply pulling riders 

 > from races for

 > several reasons.

 > 

 > 1. In road races especially, pulled riders will no longer be 

 > protected by

 > the caravan and will be on the road alone, many times with no 

 > spare tires

 > etc.

 > 

 > 2. In some circumstances, a rider should be able to complete 

 > the race after

 > which a penalty and appeal process can be utilized. For 

 > example, I was in a

 > crit where an official attempted to pull a group of four 

 > riders I was in as

 > she thought we were lapped, with only four laps to go, when 

 > in reality we

 > were chasing the break away. We refused to withdraw, and the 

 > chief ref

 > agreed to let us stay in (this argument was carried out while we were

 > racing!). At the end of the race, the lap counts were 

 > evaluated and in fact

 > we were found to be in 6th through 10th place. Had we been 

 > removed from the

 > race, what then? A redo?

 > 

 > Unless a rider poses a danger to the other riders, I say let 

 > them stay in

 > the race until the conclusion. Go through the penalty 

 > process, and then

 > impose penalties, and if the penalty is suspension, so be it.

 > 

 > rr

 > 

 > To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

 > To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

 > To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

 > 

 > 

 > 



 

NOTICE: This communication may contain proprietary or other confidential business information of Orcom Solutions, Inc. If you are not the intended recipient or believe that you may have received this communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating that fact and delete the copy you received. In addition, you should not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. Thank you. 

 

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Chris Bright

2003-03-18

RR,

In the interest of public debate, I'm copying the OBRA list on this side thread. OBRAers (or is that "OBRAites" or, better yet, "OBRArians!"), you might want to read from the bottom up in order to avoid confusion!

To me, it depends on the situation. If a rider is a danger to himself or others - and I would put

centerline violations squarely in that category - then I think the officials should pull them. I trust that our officials aren't going to 'willy nilly' yank riders, they need to be pretty damn sure. From time to time, someone may be unjustly DQ'd, but that's a small price to pay. If you can safely consult with the official on the road, then do so, but you are obligated to accept the punishment.

In the case Candi described, two riders did not (after clear communications) and should be suspended. No rider in the history of racing has thought they were ever justly punished, but we need to give our officials' decisions more teeth so that the message sinks in. We can't afford Rasheed Wallaces in the peloton, the stakes are too high.

Turning from enforcement to what started this thread: The bottom line is we need to get out of the mindset that it's okay to cross the center line. At Cherry Pie, I can't count the number of riders who crossed the line and stayed there in several cross-wind sections. They decided that since they could see that there was no oncoming traffic they would stay sheltered in the echelon since the yellow line isn't *really* the gutter. We as riders need to start acting like it is, even in the heat of competition. What if they were wrong? In my opinion, they should've been booted, or at the very, very minimum, the official should've neutralized the race and given the pack a blanket warning. We need to put safety first, not competition.

Oh, I'm feeling feisty today!

CB

-----Original Message-----

From: snjr [mailto:sn-@charter.net]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:46 AM

To: Chris Bright

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

Chris, All valid points, riders must follow the directions of the officials,

however, I would caution OBRA against simply pulling riders from races for

several reasons.

1. In road races especially, pulled riders will no longer be protected by

the caravan and will be on the road alone, many times with no spare tires

etc.

2. In some circumstances, a rider should be able to complete the race after

which a penalty and appeal process can be utilized. For example, I was in a

crit where an official attempted to pull a group of four riders I was in as

she thought we were lapped, with only four laps to go, when in reality we

were chasing the break away. We refused to withdraw, and the chief ref

agreed to let us stay in (this argument was carried out while we were

racing!). At the end of the race, the lap counts were evaluated and in fact

we were found to be in 6th through 10th place. Had we been removed from the

race, what then? A redo?

Unless a rider poses a danger to the other riders, I say let them stay in

the race until the conclusion. Go through the penalty process, and then

impose penalties, and if the penalty is suspension, so be it.

rr

mike.m-@obra.org

2003-03-18

I agree strongly with he idea of enforcing the centerline rule but I have

also been in the position of being the official in the follow vehicle.

Picking out the rider crossing the centerline from a follow vehicle is

difficult to do. Getting his number is even more difficult. Leaving

enforcement entirely up to the officials will not have the needed effect.

The most effective enforcer of the centerline rule will be the derision that

should rightly be heaped on the offending rider by his peers in the

surrounding pack.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:39 AM

To: Cbri-@pixelworks.com; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

Hello Chris and everyone:

The capacity to do what you suggest allready exists in the OBRA rules.

An official may, at their discretion suspend any rider for particularly

flagrant violations of the rules (and this would include ignoring

instructions from officials)

I too feel very strongly about this issue and have been known to get a bit

upset about center line violators :)

Which is why, if you want to mess around with the center line, I would

recommend that you don't race at the World Famous Kings Valley Road Race

held every second Saturday in April (on the 12th this year). The

centerline rule IS the most important rule in cycling at our level and we

enforce it STRICTLY.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Joe Cipale

2003-03-18

Candi Murray wrote:

no that is not right. An official can recommend suspension but cannot do

that. That is done by the OBRA Administrative Assistant (;-).

But what about due process? What if the one that was identified from the

official at the back is really a teammate?

Candi

If a person is acting as the role of 'official', then one is no longer a

'teammate'. At the risk of pissing off some OBRA members (and possible

teammates), if I were an official, and I viewed a

rider from my club crossing the centerline and riding dagerously, I

would take thier number.

The role of the official (based on my experience in baseball/football)

is to insure that participants play fairly and

safely. If an official is uanble to seperate the duties between

team member and impartial arbitrator, then the whole sport is in

trouble.

Removing a rider for 'dangerously aggressive' riding is meant as a

disciplinary action. If a rider comes out of it as a better racer,

then the goal of the discipline was successful. The bottom-line is

to help make the event/sport safer for ALL concernend (motorists,

pedestrians and cyclists).

Joe

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Candi Murray

2003-03-18

no that is not right. An official can recommend suspension but cannot do

that. That is done by the OBRA Administrative Assistant (;-).

But what about due process? What if the one that was identified from the

official at the back is really a teammate?

Candi

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:39 AM

To: Cbri-@pixelworks.com; obra

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] More serious center-line enforcement

Hello Chris and everyone:

The capacity to do what you suggest allready exists in the OBRA rules.

An official may, at their discretion suspend any rider for particularly

flagrant violations of the rules (and this would include ignoring

instructions from officials)

I too feel very strongly about this issue and have been known to get a bit

upset about center line violators :)

Which is why, if you want to mess around with the center line, I would

recommend that you don't race at the World Famous Kings Valley Road Race

held every second Saturday in April (on the 12th this year). The

centerline rule IS the most important rule in cycling at our level and we

enforce it STRICTLY.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Scott Goldstein

2003-03-18

Hello Chris and everyone:

The capacity to do what you suggest allready exists in the OBRA rules.

An official may, at their discretion suspend any rider for particularly

flagrant violations of the rules (and this would include ignoring

instructions from officials)

I too feel very strongly about this issue and have been known to get a bit

upset about center line violators :)

Which is why, if you want to mess around with the center line, I would

recommend that you don't race at the World Famous Kings Valley Road Race

held every second Saturday in April (on the 12th this year). The

centerline rule IS the most important rule in cycling at our level and we

enforce it STRICTLY.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

Chris Bright

2003-03-18

In my opinion, center line violations are the most serious offenses because the consequences are so dire. There is no excuse for crossing the line. Imagine that the center line *is* the edge of road. If someone is crowding you, crowd them back, put your hand on their hip, whatever.

That's why when I hear Candi speak about racers that ignore the officials during a race, I get pissed. I would suggest that we impose more serious penalties.

If you cross the line, you are DQ'd. Period. Don't want to get DQ'd? Stay away from the line. Naturally this is at the official's discretion, but we -- as a racing community -- need to get more serious about it. I see racers over the line all the time.

But here's the new part:

If you ignore an official's warning (like Candi described happened this past weekend), *you are automatically suspended from racing in OBRA races for three weeks.* Suspensions will also be published on the OBRA list and web site. Deprivation and shame are a powerful combo. Right now there are no consequences to staying in a race and debating it later, but knowing that you won't get to race will get people's attention. If we are to avoid a catastrophe, we need more enforcement. Let's give our officials the tools to keep us all safe.

Chris Bright

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 8:53 AM

To: Math-@dowa.com; obra

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Rider dies at race in Tucson

I can't speak for all officials. I know that in the cat 3 field this week,

after 2 riders crossed the centerline, the officials had a devil of time

getting them to withdraw. This with driving up besides them, having the

finish line crew shout at them and more. Sometimes it is very hard to get

to the riders due to traffic. But I very much agree with the idea of

immediately throwing them up.

and what is with taking the whole road to make the turn at the damn, can't

it be done from one lane?

Candi

-----Original Message-----

From: Math-@dowa.com [mailto:Math-@dowa.com]

Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 8:07 AM

To: cmur-@obra.org

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Rider dies at race in Tucson

Seems this is now the topic of conversation on topica and i was just

curious as to why the officials are not stricter on the issue. Every

race an official/promoter stands at the front of the group and sternly

warns of the active centerline. But come race time there are numerous

violations, some blatant some not,(I am guilty myself), yet I think I

can count on one hand the number of announced violations post race over

the last few years! In the bb series alone we all crossed the line

going in to the turn leading to the damn, why not shut the race down and

throw the whole 1,2 pack out.......set an example if you will.

I mean no offense, the obra officials are grand but it seems the

complaining and the constant reminding does little when the rules are

not policed in a public fashion.

Thanks candi,

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn [mailto:cmur-@obra.org]

Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 7:30 PM

To: obra

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Rider dies at race in Tucson

This past weekend a Cat 2 rider died when he was struck by a vehicle as

he

swung out across the centerline to avoid a crash in front of him.

The number one reason we get for riders crossing the centerline was

"Someone

bumped me". The only death that we have had in Oregon at a bicycle race

involved a centerline. Please take all this in consideration as you

make

your choices on where to ride. I am an old women and I do not want to

outlive any of you

Candi

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