Tj Paskewich

Not usually one to get involved in this stuff, but let's get a dose of
reality. I am not defending anyone here, but do not assume that you know
what was really going on in the peloton back in the days of Lemond. A
culture takes a very long time to create so I would find it very hard to
believe that a culture of doping did not exist long before the late 90's
when US Postal began their doping domination. PED's were around long
before US Postal came along as you can think back as far as the mid 70's to
find steriod use amongst athletes. I am not saying Lemond, Indurain etc
were doping, but haven't we learned by now that just because someone says
they were/are clean then they must be.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:08 PM, Michael Mann wrote:

> I'm waiting for Trek's apology to Greg Lemond. Lemond bikes were one of
> the best things Trek had, and my understanding is they dropped the whole
> brand when they couldn't get Greg to shut up about Lance and doping. They
> had both US TDF winners on contract and had a choice to make. Everyone lost
> on that decision.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Oct 17, 2012, at 8:59 AM, "Darell C. Provencher" <
> darellp@easystreet.net> wrote:
>
> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
>
>> This has been a long time coming
>>
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

--

*------------------- __O**
----------------- _\ <,
---------------- (_)/(_)*

* *
*><(((*> ><(((*> ><(((*> ><(((*> *

Kirk Willett

I'm just sharing my opinion based on my experience...FWIW.

I don't think choosing to dope in cycling and frogs in boiling water are all that similar. The athletes that chose to dope were consciously willing to do whatever it took to succeed in pursuit of their goals. Yes, athletes certainly did have to choose...either limit/end/cap their careers or dope...and having the constant awareness of this while friends and teammates chose to dope, certainly made the choice easier and justifiable for some. This made it so that the higher levels of the sport selected for folks who were willing to dope to achieve their competitive, business and financial goals at the expense of others (clean, peer athletes included). We all knew the options and made conscious choices...it was not a secret, but rather an elephant in the room. Many chose not to dope simply because they knew it was wrong. They respected their families, friends, peers, ethical obligations, sporting rules, and the law (in some combination and in no particular order). We all knew that doping would possibly include involvement in illegal drug trade (per US law at least).

The warming frogs don't choose, they don't even perceive that a choice (the elephant) exists.

The testimony of the athletes who doped should be commended...but only in a limited way in my book. Those that doped will keep most, if not all, of the gains they would have never achieved without doping...others were pushed to the sidelines. I just don't see the guys who doped donating a decade plus of augmented income and status/political positioning to charity, but I think some will repay a portion in time. If it weren't for the potential legal/criminal consequences, most of these individuals would have remained silent. The whole truth/knowledge regarding the US doping scene was not published on the USADA website...time will tell.

There are many athletes who chose to compete clean...100%. Far from everyone was doping. Choosing to dope does not level the playing field, it makes multiple playing fields. The clean field and the many different fields that correlate with the level, duration, sophistication, and efficacy of doping. It can be argued that riders with an significant doping history have lingering athletic performance benefits for years (physiologic and positioning/opportunity within the sport), so it is not fully accurate that if they stop doping, and continue to compete, that they truly are competing clean.

Thumbs up to the crew protesting at Nike!!!!

Michael Mann

I'm waiting for Trek's apology to Greg Lemond. Lemond bikes were one of the best things Trek had, and my understanding is they dropped the whole brand when they couldn't get Greg to shut up about Lance and doping. They had both US TDF winners on contract and had a choice to make. Everyone lost on that decision.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 17, 2012, at 8:59 AM, "Darell C. Provencher" wrote:

> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
>> This has been a long time coming
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Josh Spivey

Working long hours is bad for your health, and shouldn¹t be asked of you,
but would you do it in order to be successful?

I still don¹t understand why people are ever surprised by this. We all
endure copious amounts of
pain/hunger/dehydration/cold/sunburn/wetness/financial burden/family and
friend neglect to have our own successes in cycling. Most people would say
that¹s crazy. We may all still have a developing ³frontal lobe² then. The
bottom line is that when you¹re driving toward success, the line in the sand
gets harder and harder to draw.

On 10/19/12 11:43 AM, "Erik Voldengen" wrote:

> Sometimes the mind can be irrational.  You can come to tolerate some heavy
> burdens if it builds up slowly, and it takes a big jolt to break the path of
> inertia you've let yourself fall into. 
>
> I like Levi's analogy:  Like a frog in boiling water.
>
> I'm not saying it's right, but hey, it happens.  People are complicated. 
>
> -Erik
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:07 AM, john wrote:
>> But they "cried" after taking deciding to take them :)    
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-armstrong-case-david-zabris
>> kie-doping
>> So we should feel sorry them. 
>>  
>> Seriously  if you make a decision and are crying over it, shouldn't that tell
>> you something is wrong... and to get out and walk away.
>>  
>> All I can think is that the Frontal Lobe is still developing until age 26.  
>> (which is another reason to protect "kids" from abusing drugs, whether it be
>> alcohol or epo, etc. )
>>  
>> Now what i would like to hear is Exact Details  / summary / overview on
>> exactly what was being taken, how it was being taken, how much, known effects
>> it has (short term, long term),  etc, etc, etc.
>>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Erik Voldengen

Sometimes the mind can be irrational. You can come to tolerate some heavy
burdens if it builds up slowly, and it takes a big jolt to break the path
of inertia you've let yourself fall into.

I like Levi's analogy: Like a frog in boiling water.

I'm not saying it's right, but hey, it happens. People are complicated.

-Erik

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 11:07 AM, john wrote:

> But they "cried" after taking deciding to take them :)
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-armstrong-case-david-zabriskie-doping
> So we should feel sorry them.
>
> Seriously if you make a decision and are crying over it, shouldn't that
> tell you something is wrong... and to get out and walk away.
>
> All I can think is that the Frontal Lobe is still developing until age
> 26. (which is another reason to protect "kids" from abusing drugs,
> whether it be alcohol or epo, etc. )
>
> Now what i would like to hear is Exact Details / summary / overview on
> exactly what was being taken, how it was being taken, how much, known
> effects it has (short term, long term), etc, etc, etc.
>
>

john

But they "cried" after taking deciding to take them :)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/oct/11/lance-armstrong-case-david-zabriskie-doping
So we should feel sorry them.

Seriously if you make a decision and are crying over it, shouldn't that
tell you something is wrong... and to get out and walk away.

All I can think is that the Frontal Lobe is still developing until age
26. (which is another reason to protect "kids" from abusing drugs,
whether it be alcohol or epo, etc. )

Now what i would like to hear is Exact Details / summary / overview on
exactly what was being taken, how it was being taken, how much, known
effects it has (short term, long term), etc, etc, etc.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:42 AM, wrote:

> I had an aunt Dood. She was a dude of sorts.
> Did not race bikes however.
> Not to fear about Rabobank. It is too bad for sure, but if the sport
> really shows it is cleaning up there will be other sponsors step forward.
> They probably will even re-enter with support. I know this impacts
> current the current team, but members will need to find another way to
> survive. This is similar to some jerk running a red light in downtown
> portland on a bike (in front of many people), thus making many of them not
> want to support infrastructure for cycling.
> All of us mashing our ideas back and forth make us feel heard, but what
> happens at the upper levels of cycling will only be impacted by the money.
> I hope the money makes it go in the "clean" direction.
> We as individuals can race our bikes clean (if that is what we choose to
> do....we will not be tested unless at one of the more elite events) and
> encourage others around us to do the same. In the end (same as the pro
> riders) it will be the choice of the individual to race clean or not.
> Remember. Nobody FORCED any of those riders to use PEDS. They may have
> been coerced, but they could have told fellow riders, management or doctors
> that they did not want to do it and walked away. Some riders did that.
> Hundreds of "wrongs" (using PEDS) does not make it "right".
> Now excuse me I have to go get my statin prescription refilled before race
> day.
> ron
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Steve Long
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 9:07 AM
> To: Dan Kaempff ; Matt Savage ; Ormerod, Gilbert
>
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; David Peterson ; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> This thread is the first time I've ever seen dudes spelled doods
>
> Sent from my Samsung Infuse Smartphone
>
> Dan Kaempff wrote:
>
> The problems with professional cycling are not limited to "a couple
>> doods." It's systemic, including the UCI. And implying we shouldn't be
>> investigating cheating in cycling when there are other illegalities going
>> on is ridiculous. Following that logic, I guess it's OK if I steal all of
>> your bikes, because hey, I didn't kill anyone, right?
>> I agree with the sentiments that the current organizational structure of
>> cycling needs to be destroyed. It won't kill the sport; rather it will
>> create an environment for rebirth. As long as there are bicycles, people
>> will want to race them.
>>
>> From: yeahdude1976@gmail.com
>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:15:26 -0700
>>> To: Gilbert.Ormerod@providence.org
>>> CC: obra@list.obra.org; wavex@earthlink.net; mtshank@mac.com
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>>
>>> Now this is getting silly... Global corporate financial institutions
>>> are pulling out because they don't want anything to do with a dirty
>>> sport...? A couple doods want a easy competitive advantage and suddenly
>>> we're the bad guys...?
>>>
>>> What's worse, taking a billion dollar bailout and throwing farmers under
>>> the bus or dating models and having an elevated hematocrit level ...?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...
>>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2012, at 5:48 AM, "Ormerod, Gilbert" <
>>> Gilbert.Ormerod@providence.**org >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > First I want to be clear that I agree with Ron. Bicycle racing will >
>>> continue. This won't kill our sport.
>>> >
>>> > On the other hand, speaking of "kill(ing) the sport as we know it >
>>> today"...
>>> >
>>> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/**news/rabobank-to-end-its-**
>>> sponsorship-of-professional-**cycling-teams
>>> > ______________________________**__________
>>> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
>>> Behalf > Of joec@aracnet.com [joec@aracnet.com]
>>> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:17 PM
>>> > To: Karsten Hagen
>>> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
>>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>> >
>>> > My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
>>> > part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
>>> > know it
>>> > today.
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
>>> > wrote:
>>> >> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
>>> >> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
>>> >> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
>>> >> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>>> >>
>>> >> Karsten Hagen
>>> >>
>>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>>> >>
>>> >> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
>>> >> people, I call them Government.
>>> >>
>>> >> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
>>> >> project with great potential exposure.
>>> >>
>>> >> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>>> >>
>>> >> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
>>> >> and fun than oversight.
>>> >>
>>> >> If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do
>>> >> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
>>> >> USCF.
>>> >>
>>> >> The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
>>> >> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
>>> >> us to race.
>>> >>
>>> >> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>>> >>
>>> >> _________________________
>>> >> Jon Nigbor
>>> >>
>>> >> o. 503.230.0406
>>> >> o. 800.272.7222
>>> >> c. 503.720.6431
>>> >>
>>> >> -------------------------
>>> >>
>>> >> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
>>> >> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
>>> >> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
>>> >> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
>>> >> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>> >>
>>> >> [5]
>>> >>
>>> >> ABOUT USADA
>>> >>
>>> >> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
>>> >> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
>>> >> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
>>> >> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>>> >>
>>> >> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
>>> >> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
>>> >> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
>>> >> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
>>> >> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
>>> >> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
>>> >> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
>>> >> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
>>> >> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
>>> >> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
>>> >> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>>> >>
>>> >> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>>> >>
>>> >> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
>>> >> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
>>> >> resources;
>>> >>
>>> >> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
>>> >> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>>> >>
>>> >> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
>>> >> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
>>> >> competing clean; and
>>> >>
>>> >> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
>>> >> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>>> >>
>>> >> -------------------------
>>> >>
>>> >> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
>>> >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.**obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
>>> >> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
>>> >> TO: Jon Nigbor
>>> >> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
>>> >> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>> >>
>>> >> USADA is not the government.
>>> >>
>>> >> ______________________________**_________________
>>> >> OBRA mailing list
>>> >> obra@list.obra.org [9]
>>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra[10]
>>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Links:
>>> >> ------
>>> >> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-**care.com
>>> >> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
>>> >> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
>>> >> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>>> >> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-**vision
>>> >> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.**org
>>> >> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.**org
>>> >> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>>> >> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>>> >> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>>> >> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.**obra.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________**_________________
>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> >
>>> > This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may >
>>> contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from >
>>> disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are >
>>> hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to >
>>> anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you >
>>> have received this message in error, please immediately advise the > sender
>>> by reply email and delete this message.
>>> >
>>> > ______________________________**_________________
>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> ______________________________**_________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

rondot@spiritone.com

I had an aunt Dood. She was a dude of sorts.
Did not race bikes however.
Not to fear about Rabobank. It is too bad for sure, but if the sport really
shows it is cleaning up there will be other sponsors step forward. They
probably will even re-enter with support. I know this impacts current the
current team, but members will need to find another way to survive. This is
similar to some jerk running a red light in downtown portland on a bike (in
front of many people), thus making many of them not want to support
infrastructure for cycling.
All of us mashing our ideas back and forth make us feel heard, but what
happens at the upper levels of cycling will only be impacted by the money.
I hope the money makes it go in the "clean" direction.
We as individuals can race our bikes clean (if that is what we choose to
do....we will not be tested unless at one of the more elite events) and
encourage others around us to do the same. In the end (same as the pro
riders) it will be the choice of the individual to race clean or not.
Remember. Nobody FORCED any of those riders to use PEDS. They may have
been coerced, but they could have told fellow riders, management or doctors
that they did not want to do it and walked away. Some riders did that.
Hundreds of "wrongs" (using PEDS) does not make it "right".
Now excuse me I have to go get my statin prescription refilled before race
day.
ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Long
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 9:07 AM
To: Dan Kaempff ; Matt Savage ; Ormerod, Gilbert
Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; David Peterson ; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

This thread is the first time I've ever seen dudes spelled doods

Sent from my Samsung Infuse Smartphone

Dan Kaempff wrote:

>The problems with professional cycling are not limited to "a couple doods."
>It's systemic, including the UCI. And implying we shouldn't be
>investigating cheating in cycling when there are other illegalities going
>on is ridiculous. Following that logic, I guess it's OK if I steal all of
>your bikes, because hey, I didn't kill anyone, right?
>I agree with the sentiments that the current organizational structure of
>cycling needs to be destroyed. It won't kill the sport; rather it will
>create an environment for rebirth. As long as there are bicycles, people
>will want to race them.
>
>> From: yeahdude1976@gmail.com
>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:15:26 -0700
>> To: Gilbert.Ormerod@providence.org
>> CC: obra@list.obra.org; wavex@earthlink.net; mtshank@mac.com
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>
>> Now this is getting silly... Global corporate financial institutions are
>> pulling out because they don't want anything to do with a dirty sport...?
>> A couple doods want a easy competitive advantage and suddenly we're the
>> bad guys...?
>>
>> What's worse, taking a billion dollar bailout and throwing farmers under
>> the bus or dating models and having an elevated hematocrit level ...?
>>
>>
>> Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2012, at 5:48 AM, "Ormerod, Gilbert"
>> wrote:
>>
>> > First I want to be clear that I agree with Ron. Bicycle racing will
>> > continue. This won't kill our sport.
>> >
>> > On the other hand, speaking of "kill(ing) the sport as we know it
>> > today"...
>> >
>> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-to-end-its-sponsorship-of-professional-cycling-teams
>> > ________________________________________
>> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf
>> > Of joec@aracnet.com [joec@aracnet.com]
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:17 PM
>> > To: Karsten Hagen
>> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>> >
>> > My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
>> > part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
>> > know it
>> > today.
>> >
>> > On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
>> > wrote:
>> >> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
>> >> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
>> >> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
>> >> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>> >>
>> >> Karsten Hagen
>> >>
>> >> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>
>> >> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
>> >> people, I call them Government.
>> >>
>> >> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
>> >> project with great potential exposure.
>> >>
>> >> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>> >>
>> >> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
>> >> and fun than oversight.
>> >>
>> >> If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do
>> >> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
>> >> USCF.
>> >>
>> >> The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
>> >> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
>> >> us to race.
>> >>
>> >> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>> >>
>> >> _________________________
>> >> Jon Nigbor
>> >>
>> >> o. 503.230.0406
>> >> o. 800.272.7222
>> >> c. 503.720.6431
>> >>
>> >> -------------------------
>> >>
>> >> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
>> >> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
>> >> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
>> >> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
>> >> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>> >>
>> >> [5]
>> >>
>> >> ABOUT USADA
>> >>
>> >> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
>> >> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
>> >> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
>> >> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>> >>
>> >> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
>> >> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
>> >> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
>> >> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
>> >> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
>> >> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
>> >> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
>> >> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
>> >> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
>> >> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
>> >> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>> >>
>> >> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>> >>
>> >> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
>> >> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
>> >> resources;
>> >>
>> >> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
>> >> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>> >>
>> >> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
>> >> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
>> >> competing clean; and
>> >>
>> >> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
>> >> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>> >>
>> >> -------------------------
>> >>
>> >> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
>> >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
>> >> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
>> >> TO: Jon Nigbor
>> >> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
>> >> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>> >>
>> >> USADA is not the government.
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org [9]
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Links:
>> >> ------
>> >> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
>> >> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
>> >> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
>> >> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> >> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
>> >> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> >> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> >> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> >> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> >> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> > This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
>> > contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
>> > disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are
>> > hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to
>> > anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you
>> > have received this message in error, please immediately advise the
>> > sender by reply email and delete this message.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Dan Kaempff

The problems with professional cycling are not limited to "a couple doods." It's systemic, including the UCI. And implying we shouldn't be investigating cheating in cycling when there are other illegalities going on is ridiculous. Following that logic, I guess it's OK if I steal all of your bikes, because hey, I didn't kill anyone, right?
I agree with the sentiments that the current organizational structure of cycling needs to be destroyed. It won't kill the sport; rather it will create an environment for rebirth. As long as there are bicycles, people will want to race them.

> From: yeahdude1976@gmail.com
> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 07:15:26 -0700
> To: Gilbert.Ormerod@providence.org
> CC: obra@list.obra.org; wavex@earthlink.net; mtshank@mac.com
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> Now this is getting silly... Global corporate financial institutions are pulling out because they don't want anything to do with a dirty sport...? A couple doods want a easy competitive advantage and suddenly we're the bad guys...?
>
> What's worse, taking a billion dollar bailout and throwing farmers under the bus or dating models and having an elevated hematocrit level ...?
>
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...
>
> On Oct 19, 2012, at 5:48 AM, "Ormerod, Gilbert" wrote:
>
> > First I want to be clear that I agree with Ron. Bicycle racing will continue. This won't kill our sport.
> >
> > On the other hand, speaking of "kill(ing) the sport as we know it today"...
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-to-end-its-sponsorship-of-professional-cycling-teams
> > ________________________________________
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of joec@aracnet.com [joec@aracnet.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:17 PM
> > To: Karsten Hagen
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >
> > My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
> > part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
> > know it
> > today.
> >
> > On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
> > wrote:
> >> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
> >> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
> >> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
> >> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
> >>
> >> Karsten Hagen
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
> >>
> >> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
> >> people, I call them Government.
> >>
> >> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
> >> project with great potential exposure.
> >>
> >> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
> >>
> >> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
> >> and fun than oversight.
> >>
> >> If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do
> >> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
> >> USCF.
> >>
> >> The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
> >> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
> >> us to race.
> >>
> >> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
> >>
> >> _________________________
> >> Jon Nigbor
> >>
> >> o. 503.230.0406
> >> o. 800.272.7222
> >> c. 503.720.6431
> >>
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
> >> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> >> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
> >> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> >> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >>
> >> [5]
> >>
> >> ABOUT USADA
> >>
> >> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
> >> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
> >> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
> >> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
> >>
> >> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
> >> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
> >> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
> >> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
> >> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
> >> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
> >> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
> >> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
> >> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
> >> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
> >> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
> >>
> >> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
> >>
> >> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
> >> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
> >> resources;
> >>
> >> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
> >> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
> >>
> >> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
> >> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
> >> competing clean; and
> >>
> >> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
> >> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
> >>
> >> -------------------------
> >>
> >> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
> >> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
> >> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> >> TO: Jon Nigbor
> >> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> >> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >>
> >> USADA is not the government.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org [9]
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
> >>
> >>
> >> Links:
> >> ------
> >> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
> >> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
> >> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
> >> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> >> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
> >> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> >> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> >> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> >> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> >> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email and delete this message.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Eric

Rabobank.

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Savage
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 7:15 AM
To: Ormerod, Gilbert
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; David Peterson; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

Now this is getting silly... Global corporate financial institutions are
pulling out because they don't want anything to do with a dirty sport...? A
couple doods want a easy competitive advantage and suddenly we're the bad
guys...?

What's worse, taking a billion dollar bailout and throwing farmers under the
bus or dating models and having an elevated hematocrit level ...?

Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...

On Oct 19, 2012, at 5:48 AM, "Ormerod, Gilbert"
wrote:

> First I want to be clear that I agree with Ron. Bicycle racing will
continue. This won't kill our sport.
>
> On the other hand, speaking of "kill(ing) the sport as we know it
today"...
>
>
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-to-end-its-sponsorship-of-professio
nal-cycling-teams
> ________________________________________
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of
joec@aracnet.com [joec@aracnet.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:17 PM
> To: Karsten Hagen
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
> part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
> know it
> today.
>
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
> wrote:
>> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
>> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
>> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
>> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>>
>> Karsten Hagen
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>>
>> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
>> people, I call them Government.
>>
>> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
>> project with great potential exposure.
>>
>> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>>
>> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
>> and fun than oversight.
>>
>> If people have fun, they'll generally self police, strive to do
>> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
>> USCF.
>>
>> The USADA can't make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
>> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
>> us to race.
>>
>> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>>
>> _________________________
>> Jon Nigbor
>>
>> o. 503.230.0406
>> o. 800.272.7222
>> c. 503.720.6431
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
>> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
>> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
>> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
>> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>
>> [5]
>>
>> ABOUT USADA
>>
>> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
>> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
>> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
>> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>>
>> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
>> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
>> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
>> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
>> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
>> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
>> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
>> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
>> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
>> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
>> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>>
>> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>>
>> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
>> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
>> resources;
>>
>> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
>> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>>
>> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
>> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
>> competing clean; and
>>
>> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
>> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
>> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
>> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
>> TO: Jon Nigbor
>> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>
>> USADA is not the government.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org [9]
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
>> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
>> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
>> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
>> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
>> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> This message is intended for the sole use of the addressee, and may
contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee you are hereby
notified that you may not use, copy, disclose, or distribute to anyone the
message or any information contained in the message. If you have received
this message in error, please immediately advise the sender by reply email
and delete this message.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Ah yea, the old "we had to burn down the village to save it" approach.
Ask the villagers how that worked out for them...

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

On 10/19/2012 7:23 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote:
> Good! It needs to be killed and rebuilt.

Greg Shepherd

Good! It needs to be killed and rebuilt. USAC looks for young kids to get
them into the system before they can be 'derailed' by college, without
having to support their education in any way. UCI is and has been on the
take for some time. They support the structure where the race promoters get
all the $$ and the teams have to scrap for themselves. As the sport has
grown TV viewership the team budgets have stayed flat.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 8:17 PM, wrote:

> My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
> part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
> know it
> today.
>
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
> wrote:
> > They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
> > strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
> > behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
> > Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
> >
> > Karsten Hagen
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
> >
> > Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
> > people, I call them Government.
> >
> > They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
> > project with great potential exposure.
> >
> > Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
> >
> > The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
> > and fun than oversight.
> >
> > If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do
> > better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
> > USCF.
> >
> > The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
> > more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
> > us to race.
> >
> > They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
> >
> > _________________________
> > Jon Nigbor
> >
> > o. 503.230.0406
> > o. 800.272.7222
> > c. 503.720.6431
> >
> > -------------------------
> >
> > FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
> > SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> > TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> > SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >
> > [5]
> >
> > ABOUT USADA
> >
> > The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
> > organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
> > Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
> > Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
> >
> > Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
> > integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
> > athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
> > With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
> > learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
> > are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
> > testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
> > resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
> > initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
> > to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
> > clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
> >
> > As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
> >
> > Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
> > students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
> > resources;
> >
> > Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
> > athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
> >
> > Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
> > are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
> > competing clean; and
> >
> > Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
> > techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
> >
> > -------------------------
> >
> > FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
> > [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
> > SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> > TO: Jon Nigbor
> > CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> > SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >
> > USADA is not the government.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org [9]
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
> > [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
> > [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
> > [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> > [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
> > [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> > [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> > [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Eric

While I have absolutely no proof whatsoever, people know things.

-----Original Message-----
From: rondot@spiritone.com [mailto:rondot@spiritone.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 10:16 PM
To: Eric; joec@aracnet.com; 'Karsten Hagen'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

This will not kill people racing bicycles!
Get real.
If there were idiots at the top of governing bodies covering up this crap,
then they should step up and admit it or be booted.
Cycling (racing), if this factual will not die, but just have a rebirth and
be more healthy.
Hardly any of the people doing the drugs were bad people, it was just so
systemic that the best dopers usually won and made the most money.
Clean it up and start anew.
ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:48 PM
To: joec@aracnet.com ; 'Karsten Hagen'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; 'David Peterson' ; 'Todd Shank'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

And people who haven't talked didn't know?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of joec@aracnet.com
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:18 PM
To: Karsten Hagen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
know it
today.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
wrote:
> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>
> Karsten Hagen
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>
> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
> people, I call them Government.
>
> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
> project with great potential exposure.
>
> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>
> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
> and fun than oversight.
>
> If people have fun, they'll generally self police, strive to do
> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
> USCF.
>
> The USADA can't make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
> us to race.
>
> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> [5]
>
> ABOUT USADA
>
> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>
> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>
> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>
> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
> resources;
>
> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>
> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
> competing clean; and
>
> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> TO: Jon Nigbor
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> USADA is not the government.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [9]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

rondot@spiritone.com

This will not kill people racing bicycles!
Get real.
If there were idiots at the top of governing bodies covering up this crap,
then they should step up and admit it or be booted.
Cycling (racing), if this factual will not die, but just have a rebirth and
be more healthy.
Hardly any of the people doing the drugs were bad people, it was just so
systemic that the best dopers usually won and made the most money.
Clean it up and start anew.
ron

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:48 PM
To: joec@aracnet.com ; 'Karsten Hagen'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; 'David Peterson' ; 'Todd Shank'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

And people who haven't talked didn't know?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of joec@aracnet.com
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:18 PM
To: Karsten Hagen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
know it
today.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
wrote:
> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>
> Karsten Hagen
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>
> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
> people, I call them Government.
>
> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
> project with great potential exposure.
>
> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>
> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
> and fun than oversight.
>
> If people have fun, they'll generally self police, strive to do
> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
> USCF.
>
> The USADA can't make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
> us to race.
>
> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> [5]
>
> ABOUT USADA
>
> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>
> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>
> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>
> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
> resources;
>
> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>
> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
> competing clean; and
>
> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> TO: Jon Nigbor
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> USADA is not the government.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [9]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Eric

And people who haven't talked didn't know?

-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of joec@aracnet.com
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:18 PM
To: Karsten Hagen
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank; David Peterson
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
know it
today.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
wrote:
> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>
> Karsten Hagen
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>
> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
> people, I call them Government.
>
> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
> project with great potential exposure.
>
> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>
> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
> and fun than oversight.
>
> If people have fun, they'll generally self police, strive to do
> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
> USCF.
>
> The USADA can't make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
> us to race.
>
> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> [5]
>
> ABOUT USADA
>
> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>
> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>
> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>
> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
> resources;
>
> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>
> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
> competing clean; and
>
> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> TO: Jon Nigbor
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> USADA is not the government.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [9]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

John Bravard

This is one of the wackiest defenses of Armstrong I've read. I guess one could argue that the 25 or whatever witnesses were a finely orchestrated band of lairs and that might compete.

USADA did its job. Most appreciate its role in keeping sport clean.

On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, "Jon Nigbor" wrote:

> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of people, I call them Government.
>
> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming project with great potential exposure.
>
> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>
> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer and fun than oversight.
>
> If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over USCF.
>
> The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for us to race.
>
> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> From: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> To: gjshep@gmail.com; 'Jon Nigbor'
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> About USADA
>
> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S. Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>
> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States. With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>
> As a non-profit, non-governmental agency, our programs:
>
> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches, students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and resources;
> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are competing clean; and
> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> To: Jon Nigbor
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> USADA is not the government.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

joec@aracnet.com

My fear on all of this is that it turns up a sytemic coverup on the
part of various \cycling federations. THAT could kill the sport as we
know it
today.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 20:09:21 -0700, Karsten Hagen
wrote:
> They were the only organization with the balls to put together a
> strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine
> behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters
> Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.
>
> Karsten Hagen
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>
> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of
> people, I call them Government.
>
> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
> project with great potential exposure.
>
> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>
> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer
> and fun than oversight.
>
> If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do
> better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over
> USCF.
>
> The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need
> more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for
> us to race.
>
> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com [2]]
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> TO: gjshep@gmail.com [3]; 'Jon Nigbor'
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [4]; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> SUBJECT: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> [5]
>
> ABOUT USADA
>
> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping
> organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S.
> Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for
> Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>
> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the
> integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of
> athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States.
> With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons
> learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs
> are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition
> testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference
> resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research
> initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work
> to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect
> clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>
> As a non-profit, NON-GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY, our programs:
>
> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches,
> students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and
> resources;
>
> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
> athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
>
> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who
> are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
> competing clean; and
>
> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and
> techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [6]
> [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org [7]] ON BEHALF OF Greg Shepherd
> SENT: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> TO: Jon Nigbor
> CC: obra@list.obra.org [8]; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> USADA is not the government.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [9]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [10]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [11]
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:jon.nigbor@consumer-care.com
> [2] mailto:eric939@redshift.com
> [3] mailto:gjshep@gmail.com
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://www.usada.org/mission-vision
> [6] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [7] mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> [8] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [9] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [10] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [11] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Karsten Hagen

They were the only organization with the balls to put together a strong case against Armstrong and the systematic cheating machine behind pro cycling. I do not care if it came from the damned Knitters Guild of New Brunswick, I compliment them on a thorough job.

Karsten Hagen

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 18, 2012, at 3:41 PM, Jon Nigbor wrote:

> Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of people, I call them Government.
>
> They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming project with great potential exposure.
>
> Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.
>
> The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer and fun than oversight.
>
> If people have fun, they’ll generally self police, strive to do better and participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over USCF.
>
> The USADA can’t make me ride my bike they can however grow, need more projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for us to race.
>
> They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> From: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com]
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
> To: gjshep@gmail.com; 'Jon Nigbor'
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
> Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> About USADA
>
> The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping organization for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S. Congress recognized USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for Olympic, Pan American and Paralympic sport in the United States."
>
> Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the integrity of competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of athletes in the Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States. With the vision to be the guardian of the values and life lessons learned through true sport, our organization's anti-doping programs are comprehensive, including in-competition and out-of-competition testing, results management and adjudication processes, drug reference resources and therapeutic use exemption process, scientific research initiatives, and athlete and outreach education. We continue to work to improve our system and anti-doping endeavors to further protect clean athletes and the health of future athletes.
>
> As a non-profit, non-governmental agency, our programs:
>
> Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes, coaches, students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education and resources;
> Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;
> Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals who are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are competing clean; and
> Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances and techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence
>
>
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
> To: Jon Nigbor
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; David Peterson; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> USADA is not the government.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

craig austin

I would totally dope for beer.

Craig

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 4:09 PM, Ken Finch wrote:

> Once big money enters the equation, self governance goes out the window.
> You really expect pro cycling could self govern? The reason OBRA doesn't
> need big governance is because we're all just riding for fun. There's
> nothing of any real value at stake. Bragging rights maybe.... and a beer or
> two.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Ken Finch

Once big money enters the equation, self governance goes out the window. You really expect pro cycling could self govern? The reason OBRA doesn't need big governance is because we're all just riding for fun. There's nothing of any real value at stake. Bragging rights maybe.... and a beer or two.

Jon Nigbor

Regardless of its charter, if they have governance over a group of people, I
call them Government.

They needed something to do so picked an expensive and time consuming
project with great potential exposure.

Lance-Bingo! They won! Their budget and staff will double.

The Olympics did fine before 2000 without them. I vote for more beer and
fun than oversight.

If people have fun, they'll generally self police, strive to do better and
participation will grow. OBRA is a perfect example over USCF.

The USADA can't make me ride my bike they can however grow, need more
projects to justify their existence and suddenly impose fees for us to race.

They will claim its all in our best interest. BS.

_________________________
Jon Nigbor

o. 503.230.0406
o. 800.272.7222
c. 503.720.6431

_____

From: Eric [mailto:eric939@redshift.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:32 AM
To: gjshep@gmail.com; 'Jon Nigbor'
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

About USADA

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping organization
for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S. Congress recognized
USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for Olympic, Pan American and
Paralympic sport in the United States."

Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the integrity of
competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of athletes in the
Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States. With the vision to be
the guardian of the values and life lessons learned through true sport, our
organization's anti-doping programs are comprehensive, including
in-competition and out-of-competition testing, results management and
adjudication processes, drug reference resources and therapeutic use
exemption process, scientific research initiatives, and athlete and outreach
education. We continue to work to improve our system and anti-doping
endeavors to further protect clean athletes and the health of future
athletes.

As a non-profit, non-governmental agency, our programs:

* Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes,
coaches, students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education
and resources;

* Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;

* Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals
who are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
competing clean; and

* Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances
and techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
To: Jon Nigbor
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; David Peterson; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

USADA is not the government.

Eric

About USADA

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) is the national anti-doping organization
for the Olympic movement in the United States. The U.S. Congress recognized
USADA as "the official anti-doping agency for Olympic, Pan American and
Paralympic sport in the United States."

Since its inception in 2000, USADA has worked to preserve the integrity of
competition, inspire true sport and protect the rights of athletes in the
Olympic & Paralympic movement in the United States. With the vision to be
the guardian of the values and life lessons learned through true sport, our
organization's anti-doping programs are comprehensive, including
in-competition and out-of-competition testing, results management and
adjudication processes, drug reference resources and therapeutic use
exemption process, scientific research initiatives, and athlete and outreach
education. We continue to work to improve our system and anti-doping
endeavors to further protect clean athletes and the health of future
athletes.

As a non-profit, non-governmental agency, our programs:

* Provide deterrence and preservation of sport for athletes,
coaches, students, teachers, parents, scientists and more through education
and resources;

* Include numerous protections for athletes to ensure that only
athletes who are guilty of a doping violation are sanctioned;

* Strive to systematically identify and sanction those individuals
who are engaged in the effort to gain an advantage over athletes who are
competing clean; and

* Fund pioneering research for the detection of doping substances
and techniques, and the pursuit of scientific excellence

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Greg Shepherd
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:20 AM
To: Jon Nigbor
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; David Peterson; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

USADA is not the government.

Eric

But, is USADA really a government agency? Or something like the Olympic
Committee, where there is a connection but the organization is really a
separate entity.

Time to look it up.

== Eric

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of Jon Nigbor
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 9:21 AM
To: 'craig austin'; rondot@spiritone.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; 'David Peterson'; 'Todd Shank'
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows.

If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some US government agency
finding him so?

Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so.

Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our great
champions?

Don't we have other more pressing problems?

_________________________
Jon Nigbor

o. 503.230.0406
o. 800.272.7222
c. 503.720.6431

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of craig austin
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
To: rondot@spiritone.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.

Craig

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:

For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race is
not even on the radar.
For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew the
stakes were very high for all.
Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they made
and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top tier
of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all book,
but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in such a
book.
Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
etc.
I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did not
make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
better or worse.
I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not.
It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific
at Astoria.
Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as
yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if
people cuss me and or delete this.
ron

-----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
To: Darell C. Provencher
Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
"this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
their money.
This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
usada report.
This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
he is gone.
Now get back to work'"

This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.

Joe

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
wrote:

Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-live
strong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4
&eref=sihp
[1]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
This has been a long time coming
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-step
ping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
[3]
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org [4]
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]

Links:
------
[1]
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-live
strong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4
&eref=sihp
[2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
[3]
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-step
ping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
[4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
[5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
[6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Matt Edler

I commend all those involved in "bringing Lance to justice". As Tom said, this is about much more than one person doping, and Lance is far from the only person who knows the truth.

As cyclists, we are constantly defending our sport while our friends/coworkers dismiss professional cycling as a huge farce. The momentum of this effort needs to be maintained, and the stream of confessions we've been reading are a huge step forward that would never have happened if the USADA didn't act. Tomorrow's cycling greats will hopefully be able to look back on their careers with pride, not guilt.

-Matt E.

On Oct 18, 2012, at 9:38 AM, Dan H wrote:

> If the UCI found him guilty, they would obligated to return a lot of bribes and a lot of them would lose their jobs.
> Now that Lance is getting the burn job, look for him to take a lot of people with him.
>
>
> On Oct 18, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jon Nigbor" wrote:
>
>> Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows.
>>
>> If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some US government agency finding him so?
>>
>> Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so.
>>
>> Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our great champions?
>>
>> Don’t we have other more pressing problems?
>>
>> _________________________
>> Jon Nigbor
>>
>> o. 503.230.0406
>> o. 800.272.7222
>> c. 503.720.6431
>>
>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of craig austin
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
>> To: rondot@spiritone.com
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>
>> If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:
>> For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race is not even on the radar.
>> For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew the stakes were very high for all.
>> Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
>> Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
>> They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
>> Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top tier of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all book, but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in such a book.
>> Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting etc.
>> I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did not make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience better or worse.
>> I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not. It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific at Astoria.
>> Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
>> I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if people cuss me and or delete this.
>> ron
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
>> To: Darell C. Provencher
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>>
>>
>> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
>> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
>> their money.
>> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
>> usada report.
>> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
>> he is gone.
>> Now get back to work'"
>>
>> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
>> wrote:
>> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>>
>> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
>> [1]
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
>> This has been a long time coming
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
>> [3]
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org [4]
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>>
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
>> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
>> [3]
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
>> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

jeff@ultrafreaks.net

True - they are not. But they do receive funding from the government. ~$10M
last year from memory, ~70% of their funding?

On October 18, 2012 at 12:20 PM Greg Shepherd wrote:

> USADA is not the government.
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Jon Nigbor > wrote:
> > >
> > Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows.
> >
> >
> >
> > If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some US government
> > agency finding him so?
> >
> >
> >
> > Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so.
> >
> >
> >
> > Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our
> > great champions?
> >
> >
> >
> > Don’t we have other more pressing problems?
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________
> > Jon Nigbor
> >
> > o. 503.230.0406
> > o. 800.272.7222
> > c. 503.720.6431
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org
> > [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org ] On
> > Behalf Of craig austin
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
> > To: rondot@spiritone.com
> >
> >
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, > > wrote:
> >
> > For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race
> > is not even on the radar.
> > For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew
> > the stakes were very high for all.
> > Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
> > knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
> > Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
> > They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they
> > made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
> > Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
> > guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top tier
> > of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all book,
> > but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in such a
> > book.
> > Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
> > and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
> > public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
> > important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
> > etc.
> > I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
> > riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did not
> > make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
> > better or worse.
> > I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did
> > not. It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the
> > Pacific at Astoria.
> > Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same
> > as yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
> > I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended
> > if people cuss me and or delete this.
> > ron
> >
> > -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
> >
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
> > To: Darell C. Provencher
> > Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> >
> >
> >
> > Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
> > "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
> > their money.
> > This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
> > usada report.
> > This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
> > he is gone.
> > Now get back to work'"
> >
> > This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
> >
> >
> > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> > This has been a long time coming
> >
> > http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> >
> > [3]
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org [4]
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > [5]
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> > [6]
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1]
> >
> > http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> >
> > [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> > [3]
> >
> > http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> >
> > [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> > [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >
> > [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > >

Dan H

If the UCI found him guilty, they would obligated to return a lot of bribes and a lot of them would lose their jobs.
Now that Lance is getting the burn job, look for him to take a lot of people with him.

On Oct 18, 2012, at 9:20 AM, "Jon Nigbor" wrote:

> Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows.
>
> If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some US government agency finding him so?
>
> Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so.
>
> Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our great champions?
>
> Don’t we have other more pressing problems?
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431
>
> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of craig austin
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
> To: rondot@spiritone.com
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
> If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.
>
> Craig
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:
> For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race is not even on the radar.
> For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew the stakes were very high for all.
> Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
> Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
> They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
> Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top tier of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all book, but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in such a book.
> Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting etc.
> I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did not make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience better or worse.
> I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not. It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific at Astoria.
> Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
> I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if people cuss me and or delete this.
> ron
>
> -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
> To: Darell C. Provencher
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
>
> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
> their money.
> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
> usada report.
> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
> he is gone.
> Now get back to work'"
>
> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
> wrote:
> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [1]
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> This has been a long time coming
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [3]
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [4]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> [3]
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Tom Perilloux

Yes everyone doped. Even before the report, it was pretty obvious Lance
was a doper.

What is beyond the pale is the coercion, bullying, pressure, etc, for his
teammates to dope or lose their placing on the team. It seems that
Ullrich/Basso/Pantini were one man/doctor doping shows, not a
Bruyneel/Armstrong doping fight club. First rule of fight club....

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Greg Shepherd wrote:

> USADA is not the government.
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Jon Nigbor wrote:
>
>> ** ** ** **
>>
>> Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some ****US****government agency finding him so?
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our
>> great champions? ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Don’t we have other more pressing problems? ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _________________________
>> Jon Nigbor
>>
>> o. 503.230.0406
>> o. 800.272.7222
>> c. 503.720.6431 ****
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *craig ****austin****
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
>> *To:* rondot@spiritone.com
>>
>> *Cc:* **obra@list.obra.org**; Todd Shank
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.
>>
>> Craig****
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:****
>>
>> For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race
>> is not even on the radar.
>> For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew
>> the stakes were very high for all.
>> Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
>> knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
>> Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
>> They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they
>> made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
>> Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
>> guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top
>> tier of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all
>> book, but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in
>> such a book.
>> Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
>> and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
>> public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
>> important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
>> etc.
>> I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
>> riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did
>> not make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
>> better or worse.
>> I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did
>> not. It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the
>> Pacific at ****Astoria****.
>> Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same
>> as yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
>> I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended
>> if people cuss me and or delete this.
>> ron
>>
>> -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
>> To: Darell C. Provencher
>> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot****
>>
>>
>>
>> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
>> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
>> their money.
>> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
>> usada report.
>> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
>> he is gone.
>> Now get back to work'"
>>
>> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
>> wrote:****
>>
>> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>>
>>
>> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
>> [1]
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
>> This has been a long time coming
>>
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
>> [3]
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org [4]
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>>
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>>
>> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
>> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
>> [3]
>>
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
>> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org****
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Steven Beardsley

Jon, I think you might be asking the wrong questions or may not understand
how the UCI, IOC, WADA and USADA (and US Government) interact.

All Olympic level sports has a governing body, and the UCI is the governing
body for cycling. In order for cycling to have a spot in the Olympics, the
sport must follow the PED rules set out by WADA and one of those rules is
that the UCI must uphold any sanctions set out by WADA and WADA's members
(in this case, the USADA). The governing bodies of each sport are not
responsible for testing for PED, they leave it up to the individual ADAs to
do that. And as Greg just pointed out, USADA is not a government agency.

One of the big worries that we as cyclist should have now is that the IOC
could take cycling out of the Olympics, which would be a big blow to the
sport as a whole, especially Track and BMX.

If the UCI wants to pull cycling from the Olympics, then no testing would
ever need to be done and they could operate similarly to how the NFL and
MLB operate.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Jon Nigbor wrote:

> ** ** ** **
>
> Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows. ****
>
> ** **
>
> If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some ****US****government agency finding him so?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our
> great champions? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Don’t we have other more pressing problems? ****
>
> ** **
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431 ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *craig ****austin****
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
> *To:* rondot@spiritone.com
>
> *Cc:* **obra@list.obra.org**; Todd Shank
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.
>
> Craig****
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:****
>
> For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race
> is not even on the radar.
> For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew
> the stakes were very high for all.
> Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
> knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
> Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
> They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they
> made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
> Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
> guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top
> tier of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all
> book, but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in
> such a book.
> Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
> and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
> public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
> important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
> etc.
> I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
> riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did
> not make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
> better or worse.
> I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not.
> It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific
> at ****Astoria****.
> Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as
> yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
> I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if
> people cuss me and or delete this.
> ron
>
> -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
> To: Darell C. Provencher
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot****
>
>
>
> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
> their money.
> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
> usada report.
> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
> he is gone.
> Now get back to work'"
>
> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
> wrote:****
>
> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [1]
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> This has been a long time coming
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [3]
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [4]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> [3]
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org****
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Greg Shepherd

USADA is not the government.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:20 AM, Jon Nigbor wrote:

> ** ** ** **
>
> Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows. ****
>
> ** **
>
> If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some ****US****government agency finding him so?
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our
> great champions? ****
>
> ** **
>
> Don’t we have other more pressing problems? ****
>
> ** **
>
> _________________________
> Jon Nigbor
>
> o. 503.230.0406
> o. 800.272.7222
> c. 503.720.6431 ****
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] *On
> Behalf Of *craig ****austin****
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
> *To:* rondot@spiritone.com
>
> *Cc:* **obra@list.obra.org**; Todd Shank
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.
>
> Craig****
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:****
>
> For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race
> is not even on the radar.
> For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew
> the stakes were very high for all.
> Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
> knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
> Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
> They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they
> made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
> Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
> guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top
> tier of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all
> book, but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in
> such a book.
> Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
> and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
> public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
> important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
> etc.
> I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
> riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did
> not make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
> better or worse.
> I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not.
> It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific
> at ****Astoria****.
> Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as
> yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
> I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if
> people cuss me and or delete this.
> ron
>
> -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
> To: Darell C. Provencher
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot****
>
>
>
> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
> their money.
> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
> usada report.
> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
> he is gone.
> Now get back to work'"
>
> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
> wrote:****
>
> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [1]
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> This has been a long time coming
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [3]
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [4]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> [3]
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org****
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Jon Nigbor

Who knows if Lance is guilty or not. Only he knows.

If the UCI never found him guilty why do we need some US government agency
finding him so?

Is this another example of our Government run amuck? I think so.

Do we really need our Government to hunt down and tear down one of our great
champions?

Don't we have other more pressing problems?

_________________________
Jon Nigbor

o. 503.230.0406
o. 800.272.7222
c. 503.720.6431

_____

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On
Behalf Of craig austin
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:58 AM
To: rondot@spiritone.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.

Craig

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:

For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race is
not even on the radar.
For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew the
stakes were very high for all.
Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they made
and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top tier
of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all book,
but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in such a
book.
Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
etc.
I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did not
make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
better or worse.
I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not.
It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific
at Astoria.
Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as
yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if
people cuss me and or delete this.
ron

-----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
To: Darell C. Provencher
Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
"this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
their money.
This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
usada report.
This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
he is gone.
Now get back to work'"

This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.

Joe

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
wrote:

Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-live
strong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4
&eref=sihp
[1]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
This has been a long time coming
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-step
ping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
[3]
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org [4]
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]

Links:
------
[1]
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-live
strong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4
&eref=sihp
[2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
[3]
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-step
ping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
[4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
[5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
[6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

mohair

Keep in mind that when Lance developed cancer, everyone wrote him off. And when he came back, suddenly everyone was his friend. Doping was endemic at the TdF level. Anyone here remember Bjarne Riis throwing his bike in a huge temper tantrum? Can you say 'roid rage? It appears that Lance was doing what a huge number of riders were already doing; he just did it better.

Lance has made more money racing bicycles than anyone else. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) In my opinion he earned it. Now he's paying the price. His name will have an asterisk in the record books forever.

Maybe the organizing bodies for the TdF and the rest will develop a two class system: Class B, no drugs, and Class A, open. Guess which one will get all the media coverage.

dan davis

i'm all for Ron and Nike!!! Ron you ROCK!!!
Dan...

craig austin

If Nike was smart, they'd sign Ron to a lifetime contract.

Craig

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:48 AM, wrote:

> For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race
> is not even on the radar.
> For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew
> the stakes were very high for all.
> Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
> knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
> Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
> They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they
> made and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
> Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
> guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top
> tier of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all
> book, but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in
> such a book.
> Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
> and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
> public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
> important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
> etc.
> I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
> riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did
> not make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
> better or worse.
> I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not.
> It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific
> at Astoria.
> Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as
> yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
> I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if
> people cuss me and or delete this.
> ron
>
> -----Original Message----- From: joec@aracnet.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
> To: Darell C. Provencher
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot
>
>
> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
> their money.
> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
> usada report.
> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
> he is gone.
> Now get back to work'"
>
> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
> wrote:
>
>> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>>
>> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.**com/2012/more/10/17/lance-**
>> armstrong-doping-livestrong.**ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&**eref=sihp
>> [1]
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
>> This has been a long time coming
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/**sports/cycling/2012/10/17/**
>> lance-armstrong-stepping-down-**as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-**
>> cancer-fighting-charity/**1638341/
>> [3]
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org [4]
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra[5]
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>>
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.**com/2012/more/10/17/lance-**
>> armstrong-doping-livestrong.**ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&**eref=sihp
>> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
>> [3]
>> http://www.usatoday.com/story/**sports/cycling/2012/10/17/**
>> lance-armstrong-stepping-down-**as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-**
>> cancer-fighting-charity/**1638341/
>> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
>> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
>> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.**obra.org
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/**listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

rondot@spiritone.com

For regular people like us...to win the Tour (a stage) or other big race is
not even on the radar.
For racers like Lance and others who really were in the game, they knew the
stakes were very high for all.
Money. Colin was right. It was about the money. Lance and other riders
knew winning meant money...a living...a very good living and more.
Nike knew an association with a winner on the bottom line meant money.
They made money. Lots of it. Nike and Lance have used that money they made
and still have plenty left to be comfortable well into the future.
Lance is Lance. Some people are likable, others not. I do not know the
guy, but just hope his experience is a lesson for the people in the top tier
of racing now and into the future. Maybe he can work on a tell all book,
but from what I have seen I do not think all the truth would be in such a
book.
Time will tell if this or that comes up to surface Lance in the media now
and then, but I would not be too surprised if he just drops away from the
public / media radar with each passing day. There are so many other
important things for media to follow. Lindsey Lohan, the latest shooting
etc.
I liked riding bikes long before Lance Armstrong was born. I still like
riding my bike and hope to be able to do so for many more years. He did not
make me like it more or less. What he did does not make my experience
better or worse.
I do wish he and others could have done it without PEDs, but they did not.
It is done. That water under the bridge is just about to enter the Pacific
at Astoria.
Today is Wednesday October 17th, 2012. A good day to ride a bike, same as
yesterday or tomorrow. Yes tomorrow.
I am sorry I have continued this thread about Lance and am not offended if
people cuss me and or delete this.
ron

-----Original Message-----
From: joec@aracnet.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 9:17 AM
To: Darell C. Provencher
Cc: obra@list.obra.org ; Todd Shank
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Lance gets the boot

Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
"this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
their money.
This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
usada report.
This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
he is gone.
Now get back to work'"

This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.

Joe

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
wrote:
> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [1]
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> This has been a long time coming
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [3]
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [4]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> [3]
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jeff Mitchem

At this point, he may be right. The question is, What will we do to prove
him wrong?

We, as lovers of this sport, should view this issue as far from over and
ACT. The sport may have just bounced and we could get some clean races out
of it....for a while.

Though the LA Story may written - this is a beginning of a re-building
process. Something must be done to ensure that this never happens again.
Athlete equity must be assured somehow - perhaps via some independent body
- as a resource to young athletes who have nowhere to turn when faced with
doping pressures and the looming threat of an LA Effect.
__________
*Jeff Mitchem*
cell.971.400.1840
Rapha Racing NW
PEDAL
www.pedalevent.com

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 9:17 AM, wrote:

> Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
> "this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
> their money.
> This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
> usada report.
> This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
> he is gone.
> Now get back to work'"
>
> This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.
>
> Joe
>
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
> wrote:
> > Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
> >
> >
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> > [1]
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> > This has been a long time coming
> >
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> > [3]
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org [4]
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
> >
> >
> >
> > Links:
> > ------
> > [1]
> >
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> > [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> > [3]
> >
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> > [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> > [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

joec@aracnet.com

Listening to Colin Cowherd this AM on the drive in, his comment was
"this is a wink, wink-nudge, nudge. Lance made his money. Nike made
their money.
This is all much ado about nothing and has very little bearing on the
usada report.
This is simply a pat on the head to the protesters as if to say 'See,
he is gone.
Now get back to work'"

This is one of the few times I agree with cowherd.

Joe

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 08:59:29 -0700, "Darell C. Provencher"
wrote:
> Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:
>  
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [1]
>
>  
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:
> This has been a long time coming
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [3]
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org [4]
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [5]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org [6]
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp
> [2] mailto:mtshank@mac.com
> [3]
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> [4] mailto:obra@list.obra.org
> [5] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> [6] mailto:obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Darell C. Provencher

Lance also dropped by Nike today. See SI article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/more/10/17/lance-armstrong-doping-livestrong.ap/index.html?sct=hp_t2_a4&eref=sihp

On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 7:01 AM, Todd Shank wrote:

> This has been a long time coming
>
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

Todd Shank

This has been a long time coming
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2012/10/17/lance-armstrong-stepping-down-as-chairman-of-his-livestrong-cancer-fighting-charity/1638341/