OBRA: OBRA Chat: centerline

mike.m-@obra.org

2005-06-14

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Riders policing their own and other's behaviors and officials enforcing the

rules are not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately if officials are the only

ones policing behavior the situation will be just as bad as if riders did

the only policing of behavior. Both are needed.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: columbia-@comcast.net [mailto:columbia-@comcast.net]

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 20:52 PM

To: ob-@topica.com; obra-@yahoo.com

Cc: Paul Schwyhart

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Centerline

Jeff,

I don't think you can expect the riders to 'police themselves'. I think

this is a joke! This is why we have officials! The officials are there to

ensure a safe and FAIR race and riders crossing the centerline, even if it

is safe, are taking unfair advantage of the riders that are abiding by the

rules and the offending riders should be penalized! If the riders had full

use of the road nobody would be making this argument that it's okay to cut

the corner on the inside (off the pavement). Riders would ride on the road

regardless of how tight the corner was or how clear it was.

Thanks,

Mark Schwyhart

Promoter, Columbia Plateau Stage Race

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Lorenzen [mailto:obra-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:23 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Centerline

"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."

 I'll weigh in on this one as an official. It is very hard while

sitting in a car (and usually driving) to see the numbers of every rider

that crosses the centerline, even a big stage race like Columbia Plateau or

Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their left numbers on the jersey pocket

(which gets into number pinning, but that's another topic). In Oregon, our

field sizes frequently come close to 100 riders and on narrow roads it is

sometimes difficult just to see the front of the field, let alone individual

riders and their numbers as they cross the line. OBRA rules have very

specific penalties for centerline violations and, in many races, the chief

referee will announce at the starting line that the initial warning has been

given and any violation will then result in a penalty.

 This is why we depend on riders to police themselves. Part of that

policing is conversations and reminders like this current thread. If you

see a rider in field that is crossing the centerline, tell them. If they

continue to do it, tell the official when the race is over. We are not

racing in Europe. For the most part, most of us are not racing in National

caliber events. We are racing because it is a fun hobby and promotes

fitness, both mental and physical.

 I know Candi has talked about requiring every up-and-coming racer to

work with the officials for at least one race. Seeing a race from the

inside out really brings perspective to what we are doing. Once you know

what the officials are trying to do and why, I think your attitude in the

bunch can change. I also know this from a promoter's perspective. We had a

few glitches at the Mt. Hood Cycling Classic this year, but walked away

feeling it was a success because no one died or was seriously injured.

 I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to get them all to be

quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do is make sure their

own mouths are shut. If we each take responsibility and keep perspective

for our individual actions, then the problem will truly be solved.

Jeff Lorenzen

OBRA 369

Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com> wrote:

Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved.

Gary

On 6/14/05, Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

I have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders bumped, one

went across the centerline and hit a car head on. It was a real mess.

The centerline rule is there for a reason. There is no gray area. Not

the safe line or whatever crap you are using to justify what you did.

Just don't go over the damn line.

Candi

-----Original Message-----

From: Jason Smith [mailto:flah-@comcast.net <mailto:flah-@comcast.net>

]

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing

If you cross the centerline against the official's orders, you are

taking your life into your own hands and may end up maimed, paralyzed,

or dead. In addition, you are cheating because you are breaking the

rules to your advantage.

john schmidt wrote:

A couple opinions (just opinions):

The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole

width

and I thought most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking for

and

ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any

on-coming

cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT

to

breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try a

break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for full

use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.

So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying to

stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes

were

awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would

have come back shortly...

Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just that

specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...

I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will

since

it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is certainly

not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the

races

I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an

emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the

gap.

That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note

her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to

sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get

sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to

another".

This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously,

nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders in

front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

accordingly.

I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own

front

wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus

you

are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems

behind you!

By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not dangerous

but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum,

erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line", etc).

If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

(honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally.

If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and

gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted to

consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to

the

front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then this was also in 1989,

1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I will occasionally get assertive

but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs

aren't

huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that's

some

fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great bike

skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and

of

course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach

properly...

Other notes:

Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it causes

you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a young

green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle. "You do Not need to keep

constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly

into

it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not

recommended),

or if there is no place for a possible rider

to-the-side-and-back-of-you

to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance.

but on the road, No, just be smooth.

Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic lateral

movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight

line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive outcomes

will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it

and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you

push

a big gear I will leave you more room.

On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out

too.

this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer

if

this were done more out there too.

Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while

riding

close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them elbows.

Vicki Schroeder wrote:

Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in

order.

Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is always

others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?

Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems

that

sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in

tight

packs).

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

To unsubscribe send to

_____

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Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check

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<DIV>Riders

policing their own and other's behaviors and officials enforcing the rules are

not mutually exclusive. Unfortunately if officials are the only ones

policing behavior the situation will be just as bad as if riders did the only

policing of behavior. Both are needed.</DIV>

Mike Murray 

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From:

columbia-@comcast.net [mailto:columbia-@comcast.net]

 Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 20:52 PM To:

ob-@topica.com; obra-@yahoo.com Cc: Paul

Schwyhart Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Centerline </DIV>

<DIV>Jeff,</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I

don't think you can expect the riders to 'police themselves'. I think

this is a joke! This is why we have officials! The officials are

there to ensure a safe and FAIR race and riders crossing the centerline, even

if it is safe, are taking unfair advantage of the riders that are abiding by

the rules and the offending riders should be penalized! If the riders

had full use of the road nobody would be making this argument that it's okay

to cut the corner on the inside (off the pavement). Riders would ride on

the road regardless of how tight the corner was or how clear it

was.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

<DIV>Mark

Schwyhart</DIV>

<DIV>Promoter, Columbia Plateau Stage Race</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

 <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Jeff Lorenzen

 [mailto:obra-@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:23

 PM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]

 Centerline </DIV>

 <DIV>

 <DIV>

 <DIV>"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."</DIV>

 <DIV> </DIV>

 <DIV> I'll weigh in on this one as an

 official. It is very hard while sitting in a car (and usually driving)

 to see the numbers of every rider that crosses the centerline, even a big

 stage race like Columbia Plateau or Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their

 left numbers on the jersey pocket (which gets into number pinning, but

 that's another topic). In Oregon, our field sizes frequently come

 close to 100 riders and on narrow roads it is sometimes difficult just to

 see the front of the field, let alone individual riders and their numbers as

 they cross the line. OBRA rules have very specific penalties for

 centerline violations and, in many races, the chief referee will announce at

 the starting line that the initial warning has been given and any violation

 will then result in a penalty. </DIV>

 <DIV> This is why we depend on riders to police

 themselves. Part of that policing is conversations and reminders like

 this current thread. If you see a rider in field that is crossing the

 centerline, tell them. If they continue to do it, tell the official

 when the race is over. We are not racing in Europe. For the most

 part, most of us are not racing in National caliber events. We are

 racing because it is a fun hobby and promotes fitness, both mental and

 physical.</DIV>

 <DIV> I know Candi has talked about

 requiring every up-and-coming racer to work with the officials for at least

 one race. Seeing a race from the inside out really brings perspective

 to what we are doing. Once you know what the officials are trying to

 do and why, I think your attitude in the bunch can change. I also know

 this from a promoter's perspective. We had a few glitches at the Mt.

 Hood Cycling Classic this year, but walked away feeling it was a success

 because no one died or was seriously injured.</DIV>

 <DIV> I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to

 get them all to be quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do

 is make sure their own mouths are shut. If we each take

 responsibility and keep perspective for our individual actions, then the

 problem will truly be solved.</DIV>

 <DIV> </DIV>

 <DIV>Jeff Lorenzen</DIV>

 <DIV>OBRA 369 Gary Malcolm

 <gary.m-@gmail.com> wrote:</DIV>

 <BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

 style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Then

 why not just DQ the offenders? Problem

 solved. Gary 

 <DIV>On 6/14/05, Candi

 Murray <<A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A>>

 wrote:

 <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote

 style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I

 have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders

 bumped, one went across the centerline and hit a car head

 on. It was a real mess. The centerline rule is there for a

 reason. There is no gray area. Not the safe line or

 whatever crap you are using to justify what you did. Just don't go

 over the damn line. Candi -----Original Message----- From:

 Jason Smith [mailto:<A

 href="mailto:flah-@comcast.net">flah-@comcast.net </A>] Sent:

 Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM To: <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> Subject: RE: [OBRA

 Chat] Questionable racing If you cross the centerline against the

 official's orders, you are taking your life into your own hands and

 may end up maimed, paralyzed, or dead. In addition, you

 are cheating because you are breaking the rules to your

 advantage. john schmidt wrote: > > A couple

 opinions (just opinions): > > The hairpin corner in my

 opinion should have been raced the whole width > and I thought

 most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking

 for and > ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack

 was coming down, > well at least I was. Plus you

 could look out and see for any on-coming > >

 cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole

 road, NOT to > breakaway but for cornering safety (many other

 better places to try a > break). Once again, BUT only

 because I could've look and seen for > oncoming cars

 !! The other corners, I thought they too were for

 full > use. This is why traffic was stopped at the

 intersections. > > So are you sure the C-H racer was not

 just being safe, just trying to > stay away from timid and

 dangerous cornering? Those hairpins

 lanes were > > awfully narrow. If he got a gap

 did you really need to "chase" him > down? I bet he

 wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would > have

 come back shortly... > > Obviously, I am not saying you can

 cross the yellow line, especially > when told not too. and of

 course do it on a blind corner or a blind > little rise, you

 really would be playing russian roulette. Just

 that > specific hairpin was maybe a special

 circumstance... > > I almost commented on that email a

 couple months ago and now will since > it was posted

 again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is

 certainly > not exclusive to Europe... that she

 even commented on that sort of > racing implies that exposure

 didn't happen in Portland... In the races > I have

 done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing >

 described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only

 for an > emergency. No one ever glances back, you just

 move in and fill the gap. > > That does NOT

 mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal. Note >

 her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok

 to > sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you

 might get > sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of

 the road to another". > > This is not OK, for

 sure even in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously, >

 nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there

 > would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware

 and you > know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where

 the riders in > front of you and beside you are going to go and be

 ready to react > accordingly. > > I will also add

 that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own front >

 wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside

 someone who > swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down,

 no if, thens or > buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is

 nothing you can do. Thus you > are just as

 responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause problems >

 behind you! > > By the way, filling gaps and riding up

 beside someone is not dangerous > but just normal racing, and

 does not in themselves cause crashes as > someone after PIR tried

 to tell me last week. As stated, ad nauseum, > erratic

 lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people

 > that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your

 line", etc). > If I do come up kind of close to someone, I

 will let them know, "Oh, > ahh, heh I am here". I am

 use to being tapped on the hip (which I > personally don't do

 cause it freaks some out especially in lower >

 categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so

 tight > (honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips

 occasionally. > If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive

 in filling holes and > gaps, you would be in the back in the

 matter of minutes. If wanted to > consider a top 20

 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to

 the > > front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then

 this was also in 1989, > 1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot

 and fields were typically > upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I

 will occasionally get assertive > but usually not, no need

 too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't > huge and not

 tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4

 racing, > masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all

 and get fat. > And boy I wish I would have started on the track

 16 yrs ago that's some > fun.... By the way I do

 think most of the racers here have great bike > skills etc.,

 etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too and

 of > > course we always have the up and coming great

 ones to teach properly... > > > > Other

 notes: > Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at

 it, it causes > you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I

 had to explain this to a young > green-yellow jersey rider at

 swan isle. "You do Not need to keep > constantly

 glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into >

 it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it

 (not recommended), > > or if there is no place for a

 possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you > > to go (ie

 like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance. > but

 on the road, No, just be smooth. > > Pushing a big gear

 generally results in an occasional erratic lateral >

 movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a

 straight > line... Learn to spin and just one of the

 many many positive outcomes > will be you won't cause

 crashes. Or at the very least be aware of it > and try

 push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if

 you push > > a big gear I will leave you more room.

 > > On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of

 me if I can > Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut

 off the corner and > they crash, their energy will carry to the

 outside and take you out too. > > this advice

 usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little safer if >

 this were done more out there too. > > Training a team could

 do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize > smoothness, emphasize

 predictability. Train being relaxed while riding >

 close to each other. Note the relax comes

 first. Wiggle them elbows. > > > >

 Vicki Schroeder wrote: > > > > > > Well I

 think a discussion about questionable racing is always

 in order. > > > Some riders do seem to think they are

 invincible, sadly it is always > > others that have to clean up

 their mess! I think there is far too > > little discussion

 about bad riding and the difference between hard > > racing and

 stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act > >

 against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding? >

 > > > Center line violations are very serious but so are

 other problems that > > sometimes lead to horrible crashes

 (Ex: people braking heavily in tight > > packs). >

 > > > To respond to the whole group send to <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. To respond to the

 list manager send to <A

 href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> To unsubscribe

 send to <A

 href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A> To

 respond to the whole group send to <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. To respond to the

 list manager send to <A

 href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> To unsubscribe

 send to </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>

 

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columbia-@comcast.net

2005-06-14

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Jeff,

By the way, in my experience, telling an official after the fact will have

no effect! The response will be that if the official did not see it nothing

will happen. Again I stress, this is the officials' job!

Mark Schwyhart

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Lorenzen [mailto:obra-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:23 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Centerline

"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."

 I'll weigh in on this one as an official. It is very hard while

sitting in a car (and usually driving) to see the numbers of every rider

that crosses the centerline, even a big stage race like Columbia Plateau or

Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their left numbers on the jersey pocket

(which gets into number pinning, but that's another topic). In Oregon, our

field sizes frequently come close to 100 riders and on narrow roads it is

sometimes difficult just to see the front of the field, let alone individual

riders and their numbers as they cross the line. OBRA rules have very

specific penalties for centerline violations and, in many races, the chief

referee will announce at the starting line that the initial warning has been

given and any violation will then result in a penalty.

 This is why we depend on riders to police themselves. Part of that

policing is conversations and reminders like this current thread. If you

see a rider in field that is crossing the centerline, tell them. If they

continue to do it, tell the official when the race is over. We are not

racing in Europe. For the most part, most of us are not racing in National

caliber events. We are racing because it is a fun hobby and promotes

fitness, both mental and physical.

 I know Candi has talked about requiring every up-and-coming racer to

work with the officials for at least one race. Seeing a race from the

inside out really brings perspective to what we are doing. Once you know

what the officials are trying to do and why, I think your attitude in the

bunch can change. I also know this from a promoter's perspective. We had a

few glitches at the Mt. Hood Cycling Classic this year, but walked away

feeling it was a success because no one died or was seriously injured.

 I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to get them all to

be quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do is make sure

their own mouths are shut. If we each take responsibility and keep

perspective for our individual actions, then the problem will truly be

solved.

Jeff Lorenzen

OBRA 369

Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com> wrote:

 Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved.

 Gary

 On 6/14/05, Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 I have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders bumped,

one

 went across the centerline and hit a car head on. It was a real mess.

 The centerline rule is there for a reason. There is no gray area. Not

 the safe line or whatever crap you are using to justify what you did.

 Just don't go over the damn line.

 Candi

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Jason Smith [mailto:flah-@comcast.net ]

 Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing

 If you cross the centerline against the official's orders, you are

 taking your life into your own hands and may end up maimed, paralyzed,

 or dead. In addition, you are cheating because you are breaking the

 rules to your advantage.

 john schmidt wrote:

 >

 > A couple opinions (just opinions):

 >

 > The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole

 width

 > and I thought most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking for

 and

 > ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming

down,

 > well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any

 on-coming

 >

 > cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT

 to

 > breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try

a

 > break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

 > oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for

full

 > use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.

 >

 > So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying

to

 > stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes

 were

 >

 > awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

 > down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and

would

 > have come back shortly...

 >

 > Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

 > when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

 > little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just

that

 > specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...

 >

 > I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will

 since

 > it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is

certainly

 > not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

 > racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the

 races

 > I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

 > described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for

an

 > emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the

 gap.

 >

 > That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal.

Note

 > her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to

 > sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might

get

 > sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to

 another".

 >

 > This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic!

Obviously,

 > nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise

there

 > would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

 > know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders

in

 > front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

 > accordingly.

 >

 > I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own

 front

 > wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

 > swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

 > buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus

 you

 > are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause

problems

 > behind you!

 >

 > By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not

dangerous

 > but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

 > someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad

nauseum,

 > erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and

people

 > that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line",

etc).

 > If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

 > ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

 > personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

 > categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

 > (honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips

occasionally.

 > If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and

 > gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted

to

 > consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to

 the

 >

 > front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then this was also in

1989,

 > 1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

 > upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I will occasionally get

assertive

 > but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs

 aren't

 > huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

 > masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

 > And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that's

 some

 > fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great

bike

 > skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too

and

 of

 >

 > course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach

 properly...

 >

 >

 >

 > Other notes:

 > Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it

causes

 > you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a

young

 > green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle. "You do Not need to keep

 > constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly

 into

 > it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not

 recommended),

 >

 > or if there is no place for a possible rider

 to-the-side-and-back-of-you

 >

 > to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance.

 > but on the road, No, just be smooth.

 >

 > Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic

lateral

 > movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a

straight

 > line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive

outcomes

 > will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of

it

 > and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you

 push

 >

 > a big gear I will leave you more room.

 >

 > On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

 > Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

 > they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out

 too.

 >

 > this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little

safer

 if

 > this were done more out there too.

 >

 > Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

 > smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while

 riding

 > close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them

elbows.

 >

 >

 >

 > Vicki Schroeder wrote:

 > >

 > >

 > > Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in

 order.

 >

 > > Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is

always

 > > others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

 > > little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

 > > racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

 > > against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?

 > >

 > > Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems

 that

 > > sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in

 tight

 > > packs).

 > >

 > >

 To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

 To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

 To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

 To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

 To respond to the list manager send to cmur-@obra.org

 To unsubscribe send to

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">

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<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2627" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>

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<DIV>Jeff,

</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>By the

way, in my experience, telling an official after the fact will have no

effect! The response will be that if the official did not see it nothing

will happen. Again I stress, this is the officials'

job!</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Mark

Schwyhart</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Jeff Lorenzen

[mailto:obra-@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:23

PM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]

Centerline </DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> I'll weigh in on this one as an official.

It is very hard while sitting in a car (and usually driving) to see the

numbers of every rider that crosses the centerline, even a big stage race like

Columbia Plateau or Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their left numbers on

the jersey pocket (which gets into number pinning, but that's another

topic). In Oregon, our field sizes frequently come close to 100 riders

and on narrow roads it is sometimes difficult just to see the front of the

field, let alone individual riders and their numbers as they cross the

line. OBRA rules have very specific penalties for centerline violations

and, in many races, the chief referee will announce at the starting line that

the initial warning has been given and any violation will then result in a

penalty. </DIV>

<DIV> This is why we depend on riders to police

themselves. Part of that policing is conversations and reminders like

this current thread. If you see a rider in field that is crossing the

centerline, tell them. If they continue to do it, tell the official when

the race is over. We are not racing in Europe. For the most part,

most of us are not racing in National caliber events. We are racing

because it is a fun hobby and promotes fitness, both mental and

physical.</DIV>

<DIV> I know Candi has talked about requiring

every up-and-coming racer to work with the officials for at least one

race. Seeing a race from the inside out really brings perspective to

what we are doing. Once you know what the officials are trying to do and

why, I think your attitude in the bunch can change. I also know this

from a promoter's perspective. We had a few glitches at the Mt. Hood

Cycling Classic this year, but walked away feeling it was a success because no

one died or was seriously injured.</DIV>

<DIV> I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to

get them all to be quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do is

make sure their own mouths are shut. If we each take responsibility

and keep perspective for our individual actions, then the problem will

truly be solved.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Jeff Lorenzen</DIV>

<DIV>OBRA 369 Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com>

wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Then

 why not just DQ the offenders? Problem

 solved. Gary 

 <DIV>On 6/14/05, Candi

 Murray <<A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A>>

 wrote:

 <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote

 style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I

 have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders

 bumped, one went across the centerline and hit a car head

 on. It was a real mess. The centerline rule is there for a

 reason. There is no gray area. Not the safe line or whatever

 crap you are using to justify what you did. Just don't go over the damn

 line. Candi -----Original Message----- From: Jason Smith

 [mailto:<A href="mailto:flah-@comcast.net">flah-@comcast.net

 </A>] Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM To: <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> Subject: RE: [OBRA

 Chat] Questionable racing If you cross the centerline against the

 official's orders, you are taking your life into your own hands and

 may end up maimed, paralyzed, or dead. In addition, you are

 cheating because you are breaking the rules to your

 advantage. john schmidt wrote: > > A couple

 opinions (just opinions): > > The hairpin corner in my opinion

 should have been raced the whole width > and I thought most of

 the racers were.? lead cars were looking for and >

 ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

 > well at least I was. Plus you could look out and

 see for any on-coming > > cars. If I had raced I

 probably would have used the whole road, NOT to > breakaway but

 for cornering safety (many other better places to try a >

 break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen

 for > oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they

 too were for full > use. This is why traffic was stopped

 at the intersections. > > So are you sure the C-H racer was

 not just being safe, just trying to > stay away from timid and

 dangerous cornering? Those hairpins

 lanes were > > awfully narrow. If he got a gap

 did you really need to "chase" him > down? I bet he

 wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would > have

 come back shortly... > > Obviously, I am not saying you can

 cross the yellow line, especially > when told not too. and of course

 do it on a blind corner or a blind > little rise, you really would

 be playing russian roulette. Just that > specific

 hairpin was maybe a special circumstance... > > I almost

 commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since >

 it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is

 certainly > not exclusive to Europe... that she even

 commented on that sort of > racing implies that exposure didn't

 happen in Portland... In the races > I have done(in

 the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing > described in

 Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an >

 emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill

 the gap. > > That does NOT mean erratic riding

 or hooking which is illegal. Note > her email could be

 misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to > sideswipe (if you

 stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get >

 sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road

 to another". > > This is not OK, for sure even

 in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously, > nothing is

 done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there > would

 be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you >

 know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders

 in > front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to

 react > accordingly. > > I will also add that, yeah,

 you might be responsible for your own front > wheel, BUT not

 completely. If you are behind or beside someone who >

 swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

 > buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can

 do. Thus you > are just as responsible for riding

 smooth enough to not cause problems > behind

 you! > > By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone

 is not dangerous > but just normal racing, and does not in

 themselves cause crashes as > someone after PIR tried to tell me

 last week. As stated, ad nauseum, > erratic lateral

 movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people > that

 are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line",

 etc). > If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let

 them know, "Oh, > ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being

 tapped on the hip (which I > personally don't do cause it freaks

 some out especially in lower > categories). I

 use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight > (honeycombed) that

 hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally. > If you

 daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and > gaps,

 you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted

 to > consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading,

 a way to the > > front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But

 then this was also in 1989, > 1990, when I was not fat and raced a

 lot and fields were typically > upwards of 100 riders. Of course now

 I will occasionally get assertive > but usually not, no need

 too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't > huge and not

 tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing, >

 masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

 > And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago

 that's some > fun.... By the way I do think most of

 the racers here have great bike > skills etc., etc, its just

 good to send a reminder for myself too and of > > course

 we always have the up and coming great ones to

 teach properly... > > > > Other notes: >

 Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it

 causes > you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to

 explain this to a young > green-yellow jersey rider at swan

 isle. "You do Not need to keep > constantly glancing

 back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into > it.

 " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it

 (not recommended), > > or if there is no place for a

 possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you > > to go (ie

 like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance. > but on

 the road, No, just be smooth. > > Pushing a big gear generally

 results in an occasional erratic lateral > movement. I

 see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight >

 line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive

 outcomes > will be you won't cause crashes. Or at

 the very least be aware of it > and try push the big gear smoothly.

 But don't worry too much if you push > > a big gear I will

 leave you more room. > > On Corners I always leave room for

 guy to the inside of me if I can > Not only is it a nice thing to

 do, but if you cut off the corner and > they crash, their energy

 will carry to the outside and take you out

 too. > > this advice usually applies to Crits

 but PIR would be a little safer if > this were done more out

 there too. > > Training a team could do, is simply emphasize

 spin, emphasize > smoothness, emphasize

 predictability. Train being relaxed while riding >

 close to each other. Note the relax comes

 first. Wiggle them elbows. > > > >

 Vicki Schroeder wrote: > > > > > > Well I think

 a discussion about questionable racing is always

 in order. > > > Some riders do seem to think they are

 invincible, sadly it is always > > others that have to clean up

 their mess! I think there is far too > > little discussion about

 bad riding and the difference between hard > > racing and stupid

 racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act > > against, in

 the worst cases) their riders about bad riding? > > > >

 Center line violations are very serious but so are other

 problems that > > sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex:

 people braking heavily in tight > > packs). > >

 > > To respond to the whole group send to <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. To respond to the

 list manager send to <A

 href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> To unsubscribe send

 to <A

 href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A> To

 respond to the whole group send to <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. To respond to the

 list manager send to <A

 href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> To unsubscribe send

 to </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>



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2005-06-14

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Jeff,

I don't think you can expect the riders to 'police themselves'. I think

this is a joke! This is why we have officials! The officials are there to

ensure a safe and FAIR race and riders crossing the centerline, even if it

is safe, are taking unfair advantage of the riders that are abiding by the

rules and the offending riders should be penalized! If the riders had full

use of the road nobody would be making this argument that it's okay to cut

the corner on the inside (off the pavement). Riders would ride on the road

regardless of how tight the corner was or how clear it was.

Thanks,

Mark Schwyhart

Promoter, Columbia Plateau Stage Race

-----Original Message-----

From: Jeff Lorenzen [mailto:obra-@yahoo.com]

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:23 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Centerline

"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."

 I'll weigh in on this one as an official. It is very hard while

sitting in a car (and usually driving) to see the numbers of every rider

that crosses the centerline, even a big stage race like Columbia Plateau or

Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their left numbers on the jersey pocket

(which gets into number pinning, but that's another topic). In Oregon, our

field sizes frequently come close to 100 riders and on narrow roads it is

sometimes difficult just to see the front of the field, let alone individual

riders and their numbers as they cross the line. OBRA rules have very

specific penalties for centerline violations and, in many races, the chief

referee will announce at the starting line that the initial warning has been

given and any violation will then result in a penalty.

 This is why we depend on riders to police themselves. Part of that

policing is conversations and reminders like this current thread. If you

see a rider in field that is crossing the centerline, tell them. If they

continue to do it, tell the official when the race is over. We are not

racing in Europe. For the most part, most of us are not racing in National

caliber events. We are racing because it is a fun hobby and promotes

fitness, both mental and physical.

 I know Candi has talked about requiring every up-and-coming racer to

work with the officials for at least one race. Seeing a race from the

inside out really brings perspective to what we are doing. Once you know

what the officials are trying to do and why, I think your attitude in the

bunch can change. I also know this from a promoter's perspective. We had a

few glitches at the Mt. Hood Cycling Classic this year, but walked away

feeling it was a success because no one died or was seriously injured.

 I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to get them all to

be quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do is make sure

their own mouths are shut. If we each take responsibility and keep

perspective for our individual actions, then the problem will truly be

solved.

Jeff Lorenzen

OBRA 369

Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com> wrote:

 Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved.

 Gary

 On 6/14/05, Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote:

 I have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders bumped,

one

 went across the centerline and hit a car head on. It was a real mess.

 The centerline rule is there for a reason. There is no gray area. Not

 the safe line or whatever crap you are using to justify what you did.

 Just don't go over the damn line.

 Candi

 -----Original Message-----

 From: Jason Smith [mailto:flah-@comcast.net ]

 Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM

 To: ob-@topica.com

 Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing

 If you cross the centerline against the official's orders, you are

 taking your life into your own hands and may end up maimed, paralyzed,

 or dead. In addition, you are cheating because you are breaking the

 rules to your advantage.

 john schmidt wrote:

 >

 > A couple opinions (just opinions):

 >

 > The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole

 width

 > and I thought most of the racers were.? lead cars were looking for

 and

 > ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming

down,

 > well at least I was. Plus you could look out and see for any

 on-coming

 >

 > cars. If I had raced I probably would have used the whole road, NOT

 to

 > breakaway but for cornering safety (many other better places to try

a

 > break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen for

 > oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they too were for

full

 > use. This is why traffic was stopped at the intersections.

 >

 > So are you sure the C-H racer was not just being safe, just trying

to

 > stay away from timid and dangerous cornering? Those hairpins lanes

 were

 >

 > awfully narrow. If he got a gap did you really need to "chase" him

 > down? I bet he wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and

would

 > have come back shortly...

 >

 > Obviously, I am not saying you can cross the yellow line, especially

 > when told not too. and of course do it on a blind corner or a blind

 > little rise, you really would be playing russian roulette. Just

that

 > specific hairpin was maybe a special circumstance...

 >

 > I almost commented on that email a couple months ago and now will

 since

 > it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is

certainly

 > not exclusive to Europe... that she even commented on that sort of

 > racing implies that exposure didn't happen in Portland... In the

 races

 > I have done(in the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing

 > described in Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for

an

 > emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill the

 gap.

 >

 > That does NOT mean erratic riding or hooking which is illegal.

Note

 > her email could be misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to

 > sideswipe (if you stick your wheel where it don't belong you might

get

 > sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road to

 another".

 >

 > This is not OK, for sure even in Italy, if it is erratic!

Obviously,

 > nothing is done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise

there

 > would be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you

 > know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders

in

 > front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to react

 > accordingly.

 >

 > I will also add that, yeah, you might be responsible for your own

 front

 > wheel, BUT not completely. If you are behind or beside someone who

 > swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

 > buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can do. Thus

 you

 > are just as responsible for riding smooth enough to not cause

problems

 > behind you!

 >

 > By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone is not

dangerous

 > but just normal racing, and does not in themselves cause crashes as

 > someone after PIR tried to tell me last week. As stated, ad

nauseum,

 > erratic lateral movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and

people

 > that are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line",

etc).

 > If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let them know, "Oh,

 > ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being tapped on the hip (which I

 > personally don't do cause it freaks some out especially in lower

 > categories). I use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight

 > (honeycombed) that hands and brakehorns would touch hips

occasionally.

 > If you daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and

 > gaps, you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted

to

 > consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading, a way to

 the

 >

 > front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But then this was also in

1989,

 > 1990, when I was not fat and raced a lot and fields were typically

 > upwards of 100 riders. Of course now I will occasionally get

assertive

 > but usually not, no need too (and never ever erratic), the packs

 aren't

 > huge and not tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing,

 > masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

 > And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago that's

 some

 > fun.... By the way I do think most of the racers here have great

bike

 > skills etc., etc, its just good to send a reminder for myself too

and

 of

 >

 > course we always have the up and coming great ones to teach

 properly...

 >

 >

 >

 > Other notes:

 > Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it

causes

 > you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to explain this to a

young

 > green-yellow jersey rider at swan isle. "You do Not need to keep

 > constantly glancing back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly

 into

 > it. " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it (not

 recommended),

 >

 > or if there is no place for a possible rider

 to-the-side-and-back-of-you

 >

 > to go (ie like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance.

 > but on the road, No, just be smooth.

 >

 > Pushing a big gear generally results in an occasional erratic

lateral

 > movement. I see this a lot, you may think you are riding a

straight

 > line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive

outcomes

 > will be you won't cause crashes. Or at the very least be aware of

it

 > and try push the big gear smoothly. But don't worry too much if you

 push

 >

 > a big gear I will leave you more room.

 >

 > On Corners I always leave room for guy to the inside of me if I can

 > Not only is it a nice thing to do, but if you cut off the corner and

 > they crash, their energy will carry to the outside and take you out

 too.

 >

 > this advice usually applies to Crits but PIR would be a little

safer

 if

 > this were done more out there too.

 >

 > Training a team could do, is simply emphasize spin, emphasize

 > smoothness, emphasize predictability. Train being relaxed while

 riding

 > close to each other. Note the relax comes first. Wiggle them

elbows.

 >

 >

 >

 > Vicki Schroeder wrote:

 > >

 > >

 > > Well I think a discussion about questionable racing is always in

 order.

 >

 > > Some riders do seem to think they are invincible, sadly it is

always

 > > others that have to clean up their mess! I think there is far too

 > > little discussion about bad riding and the difference between hard

 > > racing and stupid racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act

 > > against, in the worst cases) their riders about bad riding?

 > >

 > > Center line violations are very serious but so are other problems

 that

 > > sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex: people braking heavily in

 tight

 > > packs).

 > >

 > >

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<DIV>Jeff,</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I

don't think you can expect the riders to 'police themselves'. I think this

is a joke! This is why we have officials! The officials are there to

ensure a safe and FAIR race and riders crossing the centerline, even if it is

safe, are taking unfair advantage of the riders that are abiding by the rules

and the offending riders should be penalized! If the riders had full use

of the road nobody would be making this argument that it's okay to cut the

corner on the inside (off the pavement). Riders would ride on the road

regardless of how tight the corner was or how clear it was.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>

<DIV>Mark

Schwyhart</DIV>

<DIV>Promoter, Columbia Plateau Stage Race</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE>

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: Jeff Lorenzen

[mailto:obra-@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 4:23

PM To: ob-@topica.com Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat]

Centerline </DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV> I'll weigh in on this one as an official.

It is very hard while sitting in a car (and usually driving) to see the

numbers of every rider that crosses the centerline, even a big stage race like

Columbia Plateau or Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their left numbers on

the jersey pocket (which gets into number pinning, but that's another

topic). In Oregon, our field sizes frequently come close to 100 riders

and on narrow roads it is sometimes difficult just to see the front of the

field, let alone individual riders and their numbers as they cross the

line. OBRA rules have very specific penalties for centerline violations

and, in many races, the chief referee will announce at the starting line that

the initial warning has been given and any violation will then result in a

penalty. </DIV>

<DIV> This is why we depend on riders to police

themselves. Part of that policing is conversations and reminders like

this current thread. If you see a rider in field that is crossing the

centerline, tell them. If they continue to do it, tell the official when

the race is over. We are not racing in Europe. For the most part,

most of us are not racing in National caliber events. We are racing

because it is a fun hobby and promotes fitness, both mental and

physical.</DIV>

<DIV> I know Candi has talked about requiring

every up-and-coming racer to work with the officials for at least one

race. Seeing a race from the inside out really brings perspective to

what we are doing. Once you know what the officials are trying to do and

why, I think your attitude in the bunch can change. I also know this

from a promoter's perspective. We had a few glitches at the Mt. Hood

Cycling Classic this year, but walked away feeling it was a success because no

one died or was seriously injured.</DIV>

<DIV> I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to

get them all to be quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do is

make sure their own mouths are shut. If we each take responsibility

and keep perspective for our individual actions, then the problem will

truly be solved.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Jeff Lorenzen</DIV>

<DIV>OBRA 369 Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com>

wrote:</DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq

style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Then

 why not just DQ the offenders? Problem

 solved. Gary 

 <DIV>On 6/14/05, Candi

 Murray <<A href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A>>

 wrote:

 <BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote

 style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">I

 have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders

 bumped, one went across the centerline and hit a car head

 on. It was a real mess. The centerline rule is there for a

 reason. There is no gray area. Not the safe line or whatever

 crap you are using to justify what you did. Just don't go over the damn

 line. Candi -----Original Message----- From: Jason Smith

 [mailto:<A href="mailto:flah-@comcast.net">flah-@comcast.net

 </A>] Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM To: <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> Subject: RE: [OBRA

 Chat] Questionable racing If you cross the centerline against the

 official's orders, you are taking your life into your own hands and

 may end up maimed, paralyzed, or dead. In addition, you are

 cheating because you are breaking the rules to your

 advantage. john schmidt wrote: > > A couple

 opinions (just opinions): > > The hairpin corner in my opinion

 should have been raced the whole width > and I thought most of

 the racers were.? lead cars were looking for and >

 ready to stop any traffic from going up when the pack was coming down,

 > well at least I was. Plus you could look out and

 see for any on-coming > > cars. If I had raced I

 probably would have used the whole road, NOT to > breakaway but

 for cornering safety (many other better places to try a >

 break). Once again, BUT only because I could've look and seen

 for > oncoming cars !! The other corners, I thought they

 too were for full > use. This is why traffic was stopped

 at the intersections. > > So are you sure the C-H racer was

 not just being safe, just trying to > stay away from timid and

 dangerous cornering? Those hairpins

 lanes were > > awfully narrow. If he got a gap

 did you really need to "chase" him > down? I bet he

 wasn't planning to stay out there by himself and would > have

 come back shortly... > > Obviously, I am not saying you can

 cross the yellow line, especially > when told not too. and of course

 do it on a blind corner or a blind > little rise, you really would

 be playing russian roulette. Just that > specific

 hairpin was maybe a special circumstance... > > I almost

 commented on that email a couple months ago and now will since >

 it was posted again. The type of racing Larsyn describes is

 certainly > not exclusive to Europe... that she even

 commented on that sort of > racing implies that exposure didn't

 happen in Portland... In the races > I have done(in

 the US, and yes even here in oregon), the racing > described in

 Italy is generally how it works. Brakes are only for an >

 emergency. No one ever glances back, you just move in and fill

 the gap. > > That does NOT mean erratic riding

 or hooking which is illegal. Note > her email could be

 misinterpreted by some to imply that's its ok to > sideswipe (if you

 stick your wheel where it don't belong you might get >

 sideswiped), or to go "full bore from one side of the road

 to another". > > This is not OK, for sure even

 in Italy, if it is erratic! Obviously, > nothing is

 done that other racers can't react off of, otherwise there > would

 be crashes all the time. Plus usually if you are aware and you >

 know the racing style, you will easily anticipate where the riders

 in > front of you and beside you are going to go and be ready to

 react > accordingly. > > I will also add that, yeah,

 you might be responsible for your own front > wheel, BUT not

 completely. If you are behind or beside someone who >

 swerves quickly and unpredictably, you WILL go down, no if, thens or

 > buts!, and it is NOT your fault, there is nothing you can

 do. Thus you > are just as responsible for riding

 smooth enough to not cause problems > behind

 you! > > By the way, filling gaps and riding up beside someone

 is not dangerous > but just normal racing, and does not in

 themselves cause crashes as > someone after PIR tried to tell me

 last week. As stated, ad nauseum, > erratic lateral

 movements and sudden braking cause crashes (and people > that

 are not relaxed, typically those yelling "hold your line",

 etc). > If I do come up kind of close to someone, I will let

 them know, "Oh, > ahh, heh I am here". I am use to being

 tapped on the hip (which I > personally don't do cause it freaks

 some out especially in lower > categories). I

 use-to-be-use to ridding packed in so tight > (honeycombed) that

 hands and brakehorns would touch hips occasionally. > If you

 daydreamed at all and weren't assertive in filling holes and > gaps,

 you would be in the back in the matter of minutes. If wanted

 to > consider a top 20 finish, I would start working, threading,

 a way to the > > front maybe 10 miles from the finish. But

 then this was also in 1989, > 1990, when I was not fat and raced a

 lot and fields were typically > upwards of 100 riders. Of course now

 I will occasionally get assertive > but usually not, no need

 too (and never ever erratic), the packs aren't > huge and not

 tightly packed. I am really thankful for cat 4 racing, >

 masters racing, cause otherwise I wouldn't race at all and get fat.

 > And boy I wish I would have started on the track 16 yrs ago

 that's some > fun.... By the way I do think most of

 the racers here have great bike > skills etc., etc, its just

 good to send a reminder for myself too and of > > course

 we always have the up and coming great ones to

 teach properly... > > > > Other notes: >

 Looking back also is bad in that if you are not good at it, it

 causes > you to ride erratic / jerk sideways. I had to

 explain this to a young > green-yellow jersey rider at swan

 isle. "You do Not need to keep > constantly glancing

 back, If you want the hole, just ride smoothly into > it.

 " Now obviously if you are going to jerk into it

 (not recommended), > > or if there is no place for a

 possible rider to-the-side-and-back-of-you > > to go (ie

 like in a sprinters lane) than you should probably glance. > but on

 the road, No, just be smooth. > > Pushing a big gear generally

 results in an occasional erratic lateral > movement. I

 see this a lot, you may think you are riding a straight >

 line... Learn to spin and just one of the many many positive

 outcomes > will be you won't cause crashes. Or at

 the very least be aware of it > and try push the big gear smoothly.

 But don't worry too much if you push > > a big gear I will

 leave you more room. > > On Corners I always leave room for

 guy to the inside of me if I can > Not only is it a nice thing to

 do, but if you cut off the corner and > they crash, their energy

 will carry to the outside and take you out

 too. > > this advice usually applies to Crits

 but PIR would be a little safer if > this were done more out

 there too. > > Training a team could do, is simply emphasize

 spin, emphasize > smoothness, emphasize

 predictability. Train being relaxed while riding >

 close to each other. Note the relax comes

 first. Wiggle them elbows. > > > >

 Vicki Schroeder wrote: > > > > > > Well I think

 a discussion about questionable racing is always

 in order. > > > Some riders do seem to think they are

 invincible, sadly it is always > > others that have to clean up

 their mess! I think there is far too > > little discussion about

 bad riding and the difference between hard > > racing and stupid

 racing. How many teams actively instruct (or act > > against, in

 the worst cases) their riders about bad riding? > > > >

 Center line violations are very serious but so are other

 problems that > > sometimes lead to horrible crashes (Ex:

 people braking heavily in tight > > packs). > >

 > > To respond to the whole group send to <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. To respond to the

 list manager send to <A

 href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> To unsubscribe send

 to <A

 href="mailto:obra-uns-@topica.com">obra-uns-@topica.com</A> To

 respond to the whole group send to <A

 href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A>. To respond to the

 list manager send to <A

 href="mailto:cmur-@obra.org">cmur-@obra.org</A> To unsubscribe send

 to </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>



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Jeff Lorenzen

2005-06-14

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"Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved."

 I'll weigh in on this one as an official. It is very hard while sitting in a car (and usually driving) to see the numbers of every rider that crosses the centerline, even a big stage race like Columbia Plateau or Mt. Hood in which the riders wear their left numbers on the jersey pocket (which gets into number pinning, but that's another topic). In Oregon, our field sizes frequently come close to 100 riders and on narrow roads it is sometimes difficult just to see the front of the field, let alone individual riders and their numbers as they cross the line. OBRA rules have very specific penalties for centerline violations and, in many races, the chief referee will announce at the starting line that the initial warning has been given and any violation will then result in a penalty.

 This is why we depend on riders to police themselves. Part of that policing is conversations and reminders like this current thread. If you see a rider in field that is crossing the centerline, tell them. If they continue to do it, tell the official when the race is over. We are not racing in Europe. For the most part, most of us are not racing in National caliber events. We are racing because it is a fun hobby and promotes fitness, both mental and physical.

 I know Candi has talked about requiring every up-and-coming racer to work with the officials for at least one race. Seeing a race from the inside out really brings perspective to what we are doing. Once you know what the officials are trying to do and why, I think your attitude in the bunch can change. I also know this from a promoter's perspective. We had a few glitches at the Mt. Hood Cycling Classic this year, but walked away feeling it was a success because no one died or was seriously injured.

 I teach high school freshmen and when I am trying to get them all to be quiet, I frequently remind them that all they have to do is make sure their own mouths are shut. If we each take responsibility and keep perspective for our individual actions, then the problem will truly be solved.

Jeff Lorenzen

OBRA 369

Gary Malcolm <gary.m-@gmail.com> wrote:

Then why not just DQ the offenders? Problem solved.

Gary

On 6/14/05, Candi Murray <cmur-@obra.org> wrote: I have been at one race that there was a death. Two riders bumped, one

went across the centerline and hit a car head on. It was a real mess.

The centerline rule is there for a reason. There is no gray area. Not

the safe line or whatever crap you are using to justify what you did.

Just don't go over the damn line.

Candi

-----Original Message-----

From: Jason Smith [mailto:flah-@comcast.net ]

Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 9:03 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Questionable racing

If you cross the centerline against the official's orders, you are

taking your life into your own hands and may end up maimed, paralyzed,

or dead. In addition, you are cheating because you are breaking the

rules to your advantage.

john schmidt wrote:

A couple opinions (just opinions):

The hairpin corner in my opinion should have been raced the whole