Re: mtb race times...-resolution

Erik Long

2003-03-23

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>

<P>- Also it is more inline with how NORBA has their categories setup.</P>

<P>Even in bigger Norba events, the ability levels are only divided by age when there are enough competitors to do so, which is rarely the case in Oregon.  For instance, an event as large as the Sea Otter Classic usually has 8 different age groups for Expert alone, and sometimes fills the field limit in each age group.<BR><BR><BR></P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV>-Erik J. Long</DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>From: Shane Young <SUNNYS-@ATTBI.COM>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: sunnys-@attbi.com

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution

<DIV></DIV>Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:24:27 -0800

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Races times: I think some of it has to do that MTB races have

<DIV></DIV>traditionally been on Sunday. I live in Corvallis, which is at least a

<DIV></DIV>2 hour drive to any race, except the Mudslinger. I usually get home no

<DIV></DIV>earlier than 4:00 or 5:00 pm, which may or may not include staying for

<DIV></DIV>the awards. So if races were later who knows what time I would be

<DIV></DIV>getting home on a Sunday night. Some of us do have to work the next

<DIV></DIV>day. If the races were on Saturday things would change. But I believe

<DIV></DIV>that MTB and Road try not to have races on the same day. There are sick

<DIV></DIV>people out there that like to race both in a weekend. :-)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Categories: It is my understanding that the promoters believe that they

<DIV></DIV>need this many categories to get more participates. Also it is more

<DIV></DIV>inline with how NORBA has their categories setup.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Just some info.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>I personally like the way that Cyclocross is setup for categories.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>-----Original Message-----

<DIV></DIV>From: Erik Long [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]

<DIV></DIV>Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07 PM

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>You bring up an excellent point, Brian. It's hard to wake up at an

<DIV></DIV>un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard

<DIV></DIV>event in the freezing cold. I live in Bend, which puts me about three

<DIV></DIV>hours (sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon. 9a.m.

<DIV></DIV>starts are the bain of my existence because it means I've got to be on

<DIV></DIV>the road by 4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and loosen my

<DIV></DIV>legs up after driving all morning.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>I understand the usual reason for the early start times. The awards

<DIV></DIV>ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the

<DIV></DIV>usual 30+ categories at each event. If there are enough people out

<DIV></DIV>there who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the

<DIV></DIV>purpose of shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some

<DIV></DIV>later starts.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

<DIV></DIV>source of angst for organizers and racers alike. The racers are forced

<DIV></DIV>to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too)

<DIV></DIV>in order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy

<DIV></DIV>awards ceremony (and raffle). Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up

<DIV></DIV>with prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

<DIV></DIV>divisions. This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each

<DIV></DIV>race. I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB

<DIV></DIV>categories than we need.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have.

<DIV></DIV>In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors,

<DIV></DIV>and one or two masters divisoins. That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus

<DIV></DIV>the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6

<DIV></DIV>divisions, would bring the total to 12.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Then there's 'Cross. You typically have men's and women's category A,

<DIV></DIV>B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category

<DIV></DIV>mentioned a few times. That's 12 divisions, at the most.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's

<DIV></DIV>Pro/expert, sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions.

<DIV></DIV>There are age brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of

<DIV></DIV>which are then divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and

<DIV></DIV>beginner. And the race turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be

<DIV></DIV>said. For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are,

<DIV></DIV>I'm going to take the bullet for you all right now:

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Why do we divide MTB categories by age? Say you're an Expert rider. If

<DIV></DIV>you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an

<DIV></DIV>Expert pace. If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters

<DIV></DIV>division. If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport.

<DIV></DIV>If Sport is too fast, ride beginner. If beginner is too fast, see a

<DIV></DIV>doctor.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable. Kids need to ease

<DIV></DIV>into competition via a friendly atmosphere. As for dividing an already

<DIV></DIV>small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't

<DIV></DIV>happen. If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they

<DIV></DIV>should ride their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the

<DIV></DIV>yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Beginner age divisions are a waste. A beginner is a beginner is a

<DIV></DIV>beginner. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. If it's only your

<DIV></DIV>first or second race, you're a beginner. If you win, upgrade. It's

<DIV></DIV>that simple.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Single speed division is perfectly legit. It would take one hell of a

<DIV></DIV>single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Don't get me started on clydesdales. I'm amazed that anybody thinks

<DIV></DIV>being big is a handicap to anybody's speed. Try to convice Sam Schartz

<DIV></DIV>and Scott Springer on that one.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired

<DIV></DIV>of sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first

<DIV></DIV>and second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Behold simplicity:

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Sex- Male Female

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Check one of the following-

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>a) Pro/Expert

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>b) Sport

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>c) Beginner

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>d) Junior

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>e) Masters 35+

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>d) single speed

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>12 divisions. There ya go. No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women

<DIV></DIV>age 19-27. It can be that simple. It's all up to the race organizers

<DIV></DIV>to make it happen. Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in

<DIV></DIV>the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in

<DIV></DIV>nearly every category.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>-Erik

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>From: Brian Baumann

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>course while it is getting dark?

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>drive home later in the day/early evening.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>other racers.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Thanks.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>__________________________________________________

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Do you Yahoo!?

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

<DIV></DIV>

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Shane Young

2003-03-23

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Races times: I think some of it has to do that MTB races have

traditionally been on Sunday. I live in Corvallis, which is at least a

2 hour drive to any race, except the Mudslinger. I usually get home no

earlier than 4:00 or 5:00 pm, which may or may not include staying for

the awards. So if races were later who knows what time I would be

getting home on a Sunday night. Some of us do have to work the next

day. If the races were on Saturday things would change. But I believe

that MTB and Road try not to have races on the same day. There are sick

people out there that like to race both in a weekend. :-)







Categories: It is my understanding that the promoters believe that they

need this many categories to get more participates. Also it is more

inline with how NORBA has their categories setup.







Just some info.







I personally like the way that Cyclocross is setup for categories.







-----Original Message-----

From: Erik Long [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution







You bring up an excellent point, Brian. It's hard to wake up at an

un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard

event in the freezing cold. I live in Bend, which puts me about three

hours (sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon. 9a.m.

starts are the bain of my existence because it means I've got to be on

the road by 4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and loosen my

legs up after driving all morning.



I understand the usual reason for the early start times. The awards

ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the

usual 30+ categories at each event. If there are enough people out

there who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the

purpose of shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some

later starts.



The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

source of angst for organizers and racers alike. The racers are forced

to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too)

in order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy

awards ceremony (and raffle). Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up

with prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

divisions. This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each

race. I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB

categories than we need.



Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have.

In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors,

and one or two masters divisoins. That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus

the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6

divisions, would bring the total to 12.



Then there's 'Cross. You typically have men's and women's category A,

B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category

mentioned a few times. That's 12 divisions, at the most.



But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's

Pro/expert, sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions.

There are age brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of

which are then divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and

beginner. And the race turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.



There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be

said. For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are,

I'm going to take the bullet for you all right now:



Why do we divide MTB categories by age? Say you're an Expert rider. If

you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an

Expert pace. If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters

division. If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport.

If Sport is too fast, ride beginner. If beginner is too fast, see a

doctor.



The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable. Kids need to ease

into competition via a friendly atmosphere. As for dividing an already

small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't

happen. If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they

should ride their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the

yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.



Beginner age divisions are a waste. A beginner is a beginner is a

beginner. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. If it's only your

first or second race, you're a beginner. If you win, upgrade. It's

that simple.



Single speed division is perfectly legit. It would take one hell of a

single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.



Don't get me started on clydesdales. I'm amazed that anybody thinks

being big is a handicap to anybody's speed. Try to convice Sam Schartz

and Scott Springer on that one.



I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired

of sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first

and second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.



Behold simplicity:



Sex- Male           Female



Check one of the following-



a) Pro/Expert



b) Sport



c) Beginner



d) Junior



e) Masters 35+



d) single speed



12 divisions. There ya go. No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women

age 19-27. It can be that simple. It's all up to the race organizers

to make it happen. Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in

the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in

nearly every category.



-Erik











----Original Message Follows----



From: Brian Baumann



Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com



To: ob-@topica.com



Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...



Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)



Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin



so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is



it to prevent having to find someone lost on the



course while it is getting dark?



Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start



times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the



morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime



"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to



get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,



warm-up, and get to the starting line without being



completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start



times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already



stressful day. I would rather have more time in the



morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then



drive home later in the day/early evening.



I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the



viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as



other racers.



I know it is too late to do anything for this year,



but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.



Thanks.



__________________________________________________



Do you Yahoo!?



Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!



http://platinum.yahoo.com



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<div class=Section1>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Races times:  I think some of it has

to do that MTB races have traditionally been on Sunday.  I live in </span></font><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'>Corvallis</span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>, which is at least a 2

hour drive to any race, except the Mudslinger.  I usually get home no

earlier than </span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>4:00</span></font><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'> or </span></font><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>5:00 pm</span></font><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'>, which may or may not include staying for the awards.  So if

races were later who knows what time I would be getting home on a Sunday

night.  Some of us do have to work the next day.  If the races were

on Saturday things would change.  But I believe that MTB and Road try not

to have races on the same day.  There are sick people out there that like

to race both in a weekend.  </span></font><font size=2 color=navy

face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></font><font

size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;

color:navy'> </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Categories:  It is my understanding

that the promoters believe that they need this many categories to get more

participates.  Also it is more inline with how NORBA has their categories

setup.  </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Just some info.  </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I personally like the way that Cyclocross

is setup for categories.  </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:

10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span

style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> Erik Long

[mailto:elong-@hotmail.com] <br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07

PM<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> ob-@topica.com<br>

<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race

times...-resolution</span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>



<div>



<div>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>You bring up an excellent point, Brian.  It's

hard to wake up at an un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an

already hard event in the freezing cold.  I live in Bend, which puts me

about three hours (sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in

Oregon.  9a.m. starts are the bain of my existence because it means I've

got to be on the road by 4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and

loosen my legs up after driving all morning.  </span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>I understand the usual reason for the early start

times.  The awards ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily

long, due to the usual 30+ categories at each event.  If there are enough

people out there who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the

purpose of shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later

starts.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>The excessive number of categories at mountainbike

races seems to be a source of angst for organizers and racers alike.  The

racers are forced to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done

it, too) in order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy

awards ceremony (and raffle).  Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up

with prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

divisions.  This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each

race.  I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB

categories than we need.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Look at other types of bike races and the number of

divisions they have.  In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat

3, Cat 4/5, Juniors, and one or two masters divisoins.  That's maybe 6

men's divisions plus the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough

women to fill 6 divisions, would bring the total to 12.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Then there's 'Cross.  You typically have men's

and women's category A, B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual

"beginners" category mentioned a few times.  That's 12

divisions, at the most.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's

and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner, but they also divide the

divisions.  There are age brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44,

and 45+, all of which are then divided into men's and women's Pro/expert,

sport, and beginner. And the race turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>There are a few things that are burning on my

mind that just have to be said.  For those of you thinking the same

thing, as I'm sure there are, I'm going to take the bullet for you all right

now:  </span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Why do we divide MTB categories by

age?  Say you're an Expert rider.  If you're that fast, it makes

no difference how old you are, you ride at an Expert pace.  If you're

slowing down because of age, there's a masters division.  If that's too

fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport.  If Sport is too fast,

ride beginner.  If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>The Junior age divisions are perfectly

understadable.  Kids need to ease into competition via a friendly

atmosphere.  As for dividing an already small Junior field

into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't happen.  If a Junior

rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they should ride their ability

level of Sport or Expert and leave the yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Beginner age divisions are a waste.  A beginner

is a beginner is a beginner.  It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. 

If it's only your first or second race, you're a beginner.  If you win,

upgrade.  It's that simple.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Single speed division is perfectly legit.  It

would take one hell of a single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in

any race.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Don't get me started on clydesdales.  I'm amazed

that anybody thinks being big is a handicap to anybody's speed.  Try to

convice Sam Schartz and Scott Springer on that one.</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the

only guy who's tired of sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous

awards like first and second place out of a field of two Sport men,

ages 45+.  </span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Behold simplicity:</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Sex-

Male           Female</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Check one of the following-  </span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>a) Pro/Expert</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>b) Sport</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>c) Beginner</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>d) Junior</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>e) Masters 35+</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>d) single speed</span></font></p>



<p style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>12 divisions.  There ya go.  No beginners

age 78-81, no pegnant women age 19-27.  It can be that simple.  It's

all up to the race organizers to make it happen.  Then, just maybe, we can

all start our next race in the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could

go ten deep in nearly every category.</span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>-Erik </span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>



</div>



<div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>



</div>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>----Original Message Follows---- </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>From: Brian Baumann </span></font></p>



<BRIANF-@YAHOO.COM>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>To: ob-@topica.com </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times... </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST) </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

</span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>it to prevent having to find someone lost on the </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>course while it is getting dark? </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

</span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>"race shape" for that day. It is very

difficult to </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race, </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>warm-up, and get to the starting line without being </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>stressful day. I would rather have more time in the </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

</span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>drive home later in the day/early evening. </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>other racers. </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>I know it is too late to do anything for this year, </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>but it could be a consideration for upcoming years. </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Thanks. </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>__________________________________________________ </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!? </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live

on your desktop! </span></font></p>



<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span

style='font-size:12.0pt'>http://platinum.yahoo.com </span></font></p>



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------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C2F161.0ED0EC90--

Doug Evans

2003-03-21

At the races I have been to everyone is on the course at once.



-----Original Message-----

From: Peter Murphy [mailto:murphy_-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:18 PM

To: eric.k-@kingdesign.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution





Why wait to the end to have awards?



Hold the awards while the next race is going.





 From: Eric Kytola <eric.k-@kingdesign.com>

Reply-To: eric.k-@kingdesign.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:12:36 -0800



I second the motion.



-----Original Message-----

From: Erik Long [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution







You bring up an excellent point, Brian. It's hard to wake up at an

un-godly

hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in the

freezing cold. I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours (sometimes

more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon. 9a.m. starts are the bain of

my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by 4:30 if I'm

gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after driving all

morning.



I understand the usual reason for the early start times. The awards

ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the

usual

30+ categories at each event. If there are enough people out there who

would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of

shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.



The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

source of angst for organizers and racers alike. The racers are forced to

start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in

order

to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards

ceremony (and raffle). Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with

prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

divisions.

This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each race. I don't

think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB categories than we

need.



Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have.

In

road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors, and

one

or two masters divisoins. That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus the women's

divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6 divisions, would

bring the total to 12.



Then there's 'Cross. You typically have men's and women's category A, B,

C,

masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category mentioned a

few times. That's 12 divisions, at the most.



But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's Pro/expert,

sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions. There are age

brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of which are then

divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner. And the

race

turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.



There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be

said. For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are, I'm

going to take the bullet for you all right now:



Why do we divide MTB categories by age? Say you're an Expert rider. If

you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an

Expert pace. If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters

division. If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport.

If

Sport is too fast, ride beginner. If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.



The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable. Kids need to ease

into competition via a friendly atmosphere. As for dividing an already

small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't happen.

If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they should ride

their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the yet-to-develop newbie

Juniors alone.



Beginner age divisions are a waste. A beginner is a beginner is a

beginner.

It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. If it's only your first or second

race, you're a beginner. If you win, upgrade. It's that simple.



Single speed division is perfectly legit. It would take one hell of a

single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.



Don't get me started on clydesdales. I'm amazed that anybody thinks being

big is a handicap to anybody's speed. Try to convice Sam Schartz and Scott

Springer on that one.



I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired of

sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first and

second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.



Behold simplicity:



Sex- Male           Female



Check one of the following-



a) Pro/Expert



b) Sport



c) Beginner



d) Junior



e) Masters 35+



d) single speed



12 divisions. There ya go. No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women age

19-27. It can be that simple. It's all up to the race organizers to make

it happen. Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in the warmth

of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in nearly every

category.



-Erik





----Original Message Follows----

From: Brian Baumann

Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

course while it is getting dark?

Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

drive home later in the day/early evening.

I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

other racers.

I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

http://platinum.yahoo.com

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Peter Murphy

2003-03-21

Why wait to the end to have awards?



Hold the awards while the next race is going.





 From: Eric Kytola <eric.k-@kingdesign.com>

Reply-To: eric.k-@kingdesign.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 14:12:36 -0800



I second the motion.



-----Original Message-----

From: Erik Long [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution







You bring up an excellent point, Brian. It's hard to wake up at an

un-godly

hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in the

freezing cold. I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours (sometimes

more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon. 9a.m. starts are the bain of

my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by 4:30 if I'm

gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after driving all

morning.



I understand the usual reason for the early start times. The awards

ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the

usual

30+ categories at each event. If there are enough people out there who

would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of

shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.



The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

source of angst for organizers and racers alike. The racers are forced to

start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in

order

to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards

ceremony (and raffle). Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with

prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

divisions.

This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each race. I don't

think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB categories than we

need.



Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have.

In

road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors, and

one

or two masters divisoins. That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus the women's

divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6 divisions, would

bring the total to 12.



Then there's 'Cross. You typically have men's and women's category A, B,

C,

masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category mentioned a

few times. That's 12 divisions, at the most.



But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's Pro/expert,

sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions. There are age

brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of which are then

divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner. And the

race

turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.



There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be

said. For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are, I'm

going to take the bullet for you all right now:



Why do we divide MTB categories by age? Say you're an Expert rider. If

you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an

Expert pace. If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters

division. If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport.

If

Sport is too fast, ride beginner. If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.



The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable. Kids need to ease

into competition via a friendly atmosphere. As for dividing an already

small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't happen.

If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they should ride

their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the yet-to-develop newbie

Juniors alone.



Beginner age divisions are a waste. A beginner is a beginner is a

beginner.

It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. If it's only your first or second

race, you're a beginner. If you win, upgrade. It's that simple.



Single speed division is perfectly legit. It would take one hell of a

single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.



Don't get me started on clydesdales. I'm amazed that anybody thinks being

big is a handicap to anybody's speed. Try to convice Sam Schartz and Scott

Springer on that one.



I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired of

sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first and

second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.



Behold simplicity:



Sex- Male           Female



Check one of the following-



a) Pro/Expert



b) Sport



c) Beginner



d) Junior



e) Masters 35+



d) single speed



12 divisions. There ya go. No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women age

19-27. It can be that simple. It's all up to the race organizers to make

it happen. Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in the warmth

of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in nearly every

category.



-Erik





----Original Message Follows----

From: Brian Baumann

Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

course while it is getting dark?

Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

drive home later in the day/early evening.

I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

other racers.

I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

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Count me in.



-----Original Message-----

From: Eric Kytola [mailto:eric.k-@kingdesign.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:13 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution





I second the motion.



-----Original Message-----

From: Erik Long [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution







You bring up an excellent point, Brian. It's hard to wake up at an un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in the freezing cold. I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours (sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon. 9a.m. starts are the bain of my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by 4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after driving all morning.



I understand the usual reason for the early start times. The awards ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the usual 30+ categories at each event. If there are enough people out there who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.



The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a source of angst for organizers and racers alike. The racers are forced to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards ceremony (and raffle). Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30 divisions. This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each race. I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB categories than we need.



Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have. In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors, and one or two masters divisoins. That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6 divisions, would bring the total to 12.



Then there's 'Cross. You typically have men's and women's category A, B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category mentioned a few times. That's 12 divisions, at the most.



But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions. There are age brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of which are then divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner. And the race turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.



There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be said. For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are, I'm going to take the bullet for you all right now:



Why do we divide MTB categories by age? Say you're an Expert rider. If you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an Expert pace. If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters division. If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport. If Sport is too fast, ride beginner. If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.



The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable. Kids need to ease into competition via a friendly atmosphere. As for dividing an already small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't happen. If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they should ride their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.



Beginner age divisions are a waste. A beginner is a beginner is a beginner. It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. If it's only your first or second race, you're a beginner. If you win, upgrade. It's that simple.



Single speed division is perfectly legit. It would take one hell of a single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.



Don't get me started on clydesdales. I'm amazed that anybody thinks being big is a handicap to anybody's speed. Try to convice Sam Schartz and Scott Springer on that one.



I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired of sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first and second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.



Behold simplicity:



Sex- Male           Female



Check one of the following-



a) Pro/Expert



b) Sport



c) Beginner



d) Junior



e) Masters 35+



d) single speed



12 divisions. There ya go. No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women age 19-27. It can be that simple. It's all up to the race organizers to make it happen. Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in nearly every category.



-Erik





----Original Message Follows----

From: Brian Baumann

Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

course while it is getting dark?

Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

drive home later in the day/early evening.

I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

other racers.

I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

Do you Yahoo!?

Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

http://platinum.yahoo.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



_____



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<BODY>

<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=048241622-21032003>Count

me in. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Eric Kytola

[mailto:eric.k-@kingdesign.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 21, 2003

2:13 PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] mtb

race times...-resolution<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>

<DIV><SPAN class=328581122-21032003><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2>I

second the motion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

    <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma

    size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Erik Long

    [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07

    PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race

    times...-resolution<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

    <DIV>

    <DIV>

    <P>You bring up an excellent point, Brian.  It's hard to wake up at an

    un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in

    the freezing cold.  I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours

    (sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon.  9a.m. starts

    are the bain of my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by

    4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after

    driving all morning.  </P>

    <P>I understand the usual reason for the early start times.  The

    awards ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to

    the usual 30+ categories at each event.  If there are enough people out

    there who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of

    shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.</P>

    <P>The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

    source of angst for organizers and racers alike.  The racers are forced

    to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in

    order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards

    ceremony (and raffle).  Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with

    prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

    divisions.  This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each

    race.  I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB

    categories than we need.</P>

    <P>Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they

    have.  In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5,

    Juniors, and one or two masters divisoins.  That's maybe 6 men's

    divisions plus the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough women

    to fill 6 divisions, would bring the total to 12.</P>

    <P>Then there's 'Cross.  You typically have men's and women's category

    A, B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category

    mentioned a few times.  That's 12 divisions, at the most.</P>

    <P>But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's

    Pro/expert, sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions. 

    There are age brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of

    which are then divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and

    beginner. And the race turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.</P>

    <P>There are a few things that are burning on my mind that

    just have to be said.  For those of you thinking the same thing,

    as I'm sure there are, I'm going to take the bullet for you all right

    now:  </P>

    <P>Why do we divide MTB categories by age?  Say you're an

    Expert rider.  If you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you

    are, you ride at an Expert pace.  If you're slowing down because of

    age, there's a masters division.  If that's too fast for you, there's

    no shame in racing Sport.  If Sport is too fast, ride beginner. 

    If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.</P>

    <P>The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable.  Kids need to

    ease into competition via a friendly atmosphere.  As for dividing

    an already small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it

    shouldn't happen.  If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or

    Expert, they should ride their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave

    the yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.</P>

    <P>Beginner age divisions are a waste.  A beginner is a beginner is a

    beginner.  It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50.  If it's only

    your first or second race, you're a beginner.  If you win,

    upgrade.  It's that simple.</P>

    <P>Single speed division is perfectly legit.  It would take one hell of

    a single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.</P>

    <P>Don't get me started on clydesdales.  I'm amazed that anybody thinks

    being big is a handicap to anybody's speed.  Try to convice Sam Schartz

    and Scott Springer on that one.</P>

    <P>I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired

    of sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first

    and second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.  </P>

    <P>Behold simplicity:</P>

    <P>Sex- Male          

    Female</P>

    <P>Check one of the following-  </P>

    <P>a) Pro/Expert</P>

    <P>b) Sport</P>

    <P>c) Beginner</P>

    <P>d) Junior</P>

    <P>e) Masters 35+</P>

    <P>d) single speed</P>

    <P>12 divisions.  There ya go.  No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant

    women age 19-27.  It can be that simple.  It's all up to the race

    organizers to make it happen.  Then, just maybe, we can all start our

    next race in the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten

    deep in nearly every category.</P></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV>-Erik </DIV>

    <DIV> </DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV> </DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

    <DIV></DIV>From: Brian Baumann <BRIANF-@YAHOO.COM>

    <DIV></DIV>Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

    <DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

    <DIV></DIV>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

    <DIV></DIV>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

    <DIV></DIV>so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

    <DIV></DIV>it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

    <DIV></DIV>course while it is getting dark?

    <DIV></DIV>Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

    <DIV></DIV>times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

    <DIV></DIV>morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

    <DIV></DIV>"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

    <DIV></DIV>get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

    <DIV></DIV>warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

    <DIV></DIV>completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

    <DIV></DIV>times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

    <DIV></DIV>stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

    <DIV></DIV>morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

    <DIV></DIV>drive home later in the day/early evening.

    <DIV></DIV>I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

    <DIV></DIV>viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

    <DIV></DIV>other racers.

    <DIV></DIV>I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

    <DIV></DIV>but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

    <DIV></DIV>Thanks.

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>__________________________________________________

    <DIV></DIV>Do you Yahoo!?

    <DIV></DIV>Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your

    desktop!

    <DIV></DIV>http://platinum.yahoo.com

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

    <DIV></DIV>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

    <DIV></DIV>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV>

    <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>

    <HR>

    Help STOP SPAM with <A href="http://g.msn.com/8HMDENUS/2731">the new MSN 8

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Eric Kytola

2003-03-21

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I second the motion.



-----Original Message-----

From: Erik Long [mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race times...-resolution







You bring up an excellent point, Brian. It's hard to wake up at an un-godly

hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in the

freezing cold. I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours (sometimes

more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon. 9a.m. starts are the bain of

my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by 4:30 if I'm

gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after driving all

morning.



I understand the usual reason for the early start times. The awards

ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the usual

30+ categories at each event. If there are enough people out there who

would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of

shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.



The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

source of angst for organizers and racers alike. The racers are forced to

start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in order

to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards

ceremony (and raffle). Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with

prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30 divisions.

This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each race. I don't

think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB categories than we

need.



Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have. In

road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors, and one

or two masters divisoins. That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus the women's

divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6 divisions, would

bring the total to 12.



Then there's 'Cross. You typically have men's and women's category A, B, C,

masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category mentioned a

few times. That's 12 divisions, at the most.



But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's Pro/expert,

sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions. There are age

brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of which are then

divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner. And the race

turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.



There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be

said. For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are, I'm

going to take the bullet for you all right now:



Why do we divide MTB categories by age? Say you're an Expert rider. If

you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an

Expert pace. If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters

division. If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport. If

Sport is too fast, ride beginner. If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.



The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable. Kids need to ease

into competition via a friendly atmosphere. As for dividing an already

small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't happen.

If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they should ride

their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the yet-to-develop newbie

Juniors alone.



Beginner age divisions are a waste. A beginner is a beginner is a beginner.

It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50. If it's only your first or second

race, you're a beginner. If you win, upgrade. It's that simple.



Single speed division is perfectly legit. It would take one hell of a

single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.



Don't get me started on clydesdales. I'm amazed that anybody thinks being

big is a handicap to anybody's speed. Try to convice Sam Schartz and Scott

Springer on that one.



I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired of

sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first and

second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.



Behold simplicity:



Sex- Male           Female



Check one of the following-



a) Pro/Expert



b) Sport



c) Beginner



d) Junior



e) Masters 35+



d) single speed



12 divisions. There ya go. No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women age

19-27. It can be that simple. It's all up to the race organizers to make

it happen. Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in the warmth

of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in nearly every

category.



-Erik





----Original Message Follows----

From: Brian Baumann

Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

course while it is getting dark?

Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

drive home later in the day/early evening.

I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

other racers.

I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

Thanks.

__________________________________________________

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<DIV><SPAN class=328581122-21032003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I

second the motion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Erik Long

[mailto:elong-@hotmail.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 21, 2003 2:07

PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] mtb race

times...-resolution<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV>

<DIV>

<P>You bring up an excellent point, Brian.  It's hard to wake up at an

un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in

the freezing cold.  I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours

(sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon.  9a.m. starts

are the bain of my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by

4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after

driving all morning.  </P>

<P>I understand the usual reason for the early start times.  The

awards ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the

usual 30+ categories at each event.  If there are enough people out there

who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of

shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.</P>

<P>The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a

source of angst for organizers and racers alike.  The racers are forced

to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in

order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards

ceremony (and raffle).  Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with

prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30

divisions.  This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each

race.  I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB

categories than we need.</P>

<P>Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they

have.  In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5,

Juniors, and one or two masters divisoins.  That's maybe 6 men's

divisions plus the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough women to

fill 6 divisions, would bring the total to 12.</P>

<P>Then there's 'Cross.  You typically have men's and women's category A,

B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category mentioned

a few times.  That's 12 divisions, at the most.</P>

<P>But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's Pro/expert,

sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions.  There are age

brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of which are then

divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner. And the race

turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.</P>

<P>There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have

to be said.  For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there

are, I'm going to take the bullet for you all right now:  </P>

<P>Why do we divide MTB categories by age?  Say you're an

Expert rider.  If you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you

are, you ride at an Expert pace.  If you're slowing down because of age,

there's a masters division.  If that's too fast for you, there's no shame

in racing Sport.  If Sport is too fast, ride beginner.  If beginner

is too fast, see a doctor.</P>

<P>The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable.  Kids need to

ease into competition via a friendly atmosphere.  As for dividing an

already small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't

happen.  If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they

should ride their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the

yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.</P>

<P>Beginner age divisions are a waste.  A beginner is a beginner is a

beginner.  It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50.  If it's only your

first or second race, you're a beginner.  If you win, upgrade.  It's

that simple.</P>

<P>Single speed division is perfectly legit.  It would take one hell of a

single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.</P>

<P>Don't get me started on clydesdales.  I'm amazed that anybody thinks

being big is a handicap to anybody's speed.  Try to convice Sam Schartz

and Scott Springer on that one.</P>

<P>I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired of

sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first and

second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.  </P>

<P>Behold simplicity:</P>

<P>Sex- Male          

Female</P>

<P>Check one of the following-  </P>

<P>a) Pro/Expert</P>

<P>b) Sport</P>

<P>c) Beginner</P>

<P>d) Junior</P>

<P>e) Masters 35+</P>

<P>d) single speed</P>

<P>12 divisions.  There ya go.  No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant

women age 19-27.  It can be that simple.  It's all up to the race

organizers to make it happen.  Then, just maybe, we can all start our

next race in the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep

in nearly every category.</P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV>-Erik </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>From: Brian Baumann <BRIANF-@YAHOO.COM>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

<DIV></DIV>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

<DIV></DIV>so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

<DIV></DIV>it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

<DIV></DIV>course while it is getting dark?

<DIV></DIV>Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

<DIV></DIV>times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

<DIV></DIV>morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

<DIV></DIV>"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

<DIV></DIV>get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

<DIV></DIV>warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

<DIV></DIV>completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

<DIV></DIV>times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

<DIV></DIV>stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

<DIV></DIV>morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

<DIV></DIV>drive home later in the day/early evening.

<DIV></DIV>I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

<DIV></DIV>viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

<DIV></DIV>other racers.

<DIV></DIV>I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

<DIV></DIV>but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

<DIV></DIV>Thanks.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>__________________________________________________

<DIV></DIV>Do you Yahoo!?

<DIV></DIV>Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your

desktop!

<DIV></DIV>http://platinum.yahoo.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>

<HR>

Help STOP SPAM with <A href="http://g.msn.com/8HMDENUS/2731">the new MSN 8

</A>and get 2 months FREE* <PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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------_=_NextPart_001_01C2EFF6.FA7D63B0--

Erik Long

2003-03-21

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>

<P>You bring up an excellent point, Brian.  It's hard to wake up at an un-godly hour to drive three to four hours to start an already hard event in the freezing cold.  I live in Bend, which puts me about three hours (sometimes more) from nearly every race venue in Oregon.  9a.m. starts are the bain of my existence because it means I've got to be on the road by 4:30 if I'm gonna have time to get registered and loosen my legs up after driving all morning.  </P>

<P>I understand the usual reason for the early start times.  The awards ceremonies after MTB races tend to be extraordinarily long, due to the usual 30+ categories at each event.  If there are enough people out there who would be willing to give up 15 or so categories for the purpose of shortening the race day, we'd probably start seeing some later starts.</P>

<P>The excessive number of categories at mountainbike races seems to be a source of angst for organizers and racers alike.  The racers are forced to start their drive to the race as early as 4a.m. (I've done it, too) in order to make a 9a.m. start, which exists to accomodate the lengthy awards ceremony (and raffle).  Meanwhile, the organizers have to come up with prizes for (at least) the top three competitors in each of the 30 divisions.  This amounts to a minimum of 90 prizes given out at each race.  I don't think I'm alone when I say that there are far more MTB categories than we need.</P>

<P>Look at other types of bike races and the number of divisions they have.  In road races, you typically have Cat Pro/1/2, Cat 3, Cat 4/5, Juniors, and one or two masters divisoins.  That's maybe 6 men's divisions plus the women's divisions which, assuming there are enough women to fill 6 divisions, would bring the total to 12.</P>

<P>Then there's 'Cross.  You typically have men's and women's category A, B, C, masters, Juniors, and I've seen an actual "beginners" category mentioned a few times.  That's 12 divisions, at the most.</P>

<P>But, for some reason, MTB races not only have men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner, but they also divide the divisions.  There are age brackets of 14& under,15-18, 19-34, 35-44, and 45+, all of which are then divided into men's and women's Pro/expert, sport, and beginner. And the race turnouts are dwindling to the point of pathetic.</P>

<P>There are a few things that are burning on my mind that just have to be said.  For those of you thinking the same thing, as I'm sure there are, I'm going to take the bullet for you all right now:  </P>

<P>Why do we divide MTB categories by age?  Say you're an Expert rider.  If you're that fast, it makes no difference how old you are, you ride at an Expert pace.  If you're slowing down because of age, there's a masters division.  If that's too fast for you, there's no shame in racing Sport.  If Sport is too fast, ride beginner.  If beginner is too fast, see a doctor.</P>

<P>The Junior age divisions are perfectly understadable.  Kids need to ease into competition via a friendly atmosphere.  As for dividing an already small Junior field into Beginner, Sport, and Expert, it shouldn't happen.  If a Junior rider is good enough to ride Sport or Expert, they should ride their ability level of Sport or Expert and leave the yet-to-develop newbie Juniors alone.</P>

<P>Beginner age divisions are a waste.  A beginner is a beginner is a beginner.  It doesn't matter if you're 15 or 50.  If it's only your first or second race, you're a beginner.  If you win, upgrade.  It's that simple.</P>

<P>Single speed division is perfectly legit.  It would take one hell of a single speeder to be competiteve with geared bikes in any race.</P>

<P>Don't get me started on clydesdales.  I'm amazed that anybody thinks being big is a handicap to anybody's speed.  Try to convice Sam Schartz and Scott Springer on that one.</P>

<P>I only bring this up because I don't think I'm the only guy who's tired of sitting through an hour and a half of ridiculous awards like first and second place out of a field of two Sport men, ages 45+.  </P>

<P>Behold simplicity:</P>

<P>Sex- Male           Female</P>

<P>Check one of the following-  </P>

<P>a) Pro/Expert</P>

<P>b) Sport</P>

<P>c) Beginner</P>

<P>d) Junior</P>

<P>e) Masters 35+</P>

<P>d) single speed</P>

<P>12 divisions.  There ya go.  No beginners age 78-81, no pegnant women age 19-27.  It can be that simple.  It's all up to the race organizers to make it happen.  Then, just maybe, we can all start our next race in the warmth of late morning and those 90 prizes could go ten deep in nearly every category.</P></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV>-Erik </DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>----Original Message Follows----

<DIV></DIV>From: Brian Baumann <BRIANF-@YAHOO.COM>

<DIV></DIV>Reply-To: brianf-@yahoo.com

<DIV></DIV>To: ob-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>Subject: [OBRA Chat] Question about mtb race times...

<DIV></DIV>Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 10:58:46 -0800 (PST)

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>Out of curiosity, why do the mountain bike races begin

<DIV></DIV>so early in this state? Is it out of tradition? Is

<DIV></DIV>it to prevent having to find someone lost on the

<DIV></DIV>course while it is getting dark?

<DIV></DIV>Other states (not all) typically do afternoon start

<DIV></DIV>times to accommodate those that drive to the venue the

<DIV></DIV>morning of. Early starts make it hard to be in prime

<DIV></DIV>"race shape" for that day. It is very difficult to

<DIV></DIV>get up at 5, eat breakfast, drive to the race,

<DIV></DIV>warm-up, and get to the starting line without being

<DIV></DIV>completely rushed. In my opinion, the early start

<DIV></DIV>times unnecessarily add to the anxiety of an already

<DIV></DIV>stressful day. I would rather have more time in the

<DIV></DIV>morning to get to the venue and get prepared, and then

<DIV></DIV>drive home later in the day/early evening.

<DIV></DIV>I'm not a race promoter so I would like to hear the

<DIV></DIV>viewpoints of those that organize races, as well as

<DIV></DIV>other racers.

<DIV></DIV>I know it is too late to do anything for this year,

<DIV></DIV>but it could be a consideration for upcoming years.

<DIV></DIV>Thanks.

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>__________________________________________________

<DIV></DIV>Do you Yahoo!?

<DIV></DIV>Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!

<DIV></DIV>http://platinum.yahoo.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

<DIV></DIV>To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

<DIV></DIV>To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV>

<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Help STOP SPAM with <a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMDENUS/2731">the new MSN 8 </a> and get 2 months FREE*





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