Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

rondot@spiritone.com

2012-12-06

OK. Getting kind of scary now. We are entering that time where Cross is right on the edge of being so “last season”. This means the gray overcast sky is impacting our ability to think and train properly. It is showing it’s creative face. But as Matt so perfectly noted about my foundation of existence “Imagination without Reason creates Monsters” (he was channeling Francisco Goya). This means drastic measures are needed before we go off the “Cyclist’s Cliff”.
So.....
It is time to bundle up in way too much clothing, go out and ride your bike, disguised as a first year commuter, or go into a nice warm and cozy room with your trainer, ear buds, altitude control and “lose yourself”. Come back to the chat with more wild and crazy adventure stories after letting either of those activities ferment for a time. Remember to launder your bibs!
If you really want to do Nats or Worlds (kep the season alive!)...............just take the SS mountain bike and have fun! Think more like a Clyde. Trample-Trample-Trample!
out of thread.
ronnie

From: Matthew Case
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:36 AM
To: Stewart Campbell
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

Pretty sure I saw one of these folks actually peeing on the podium while taking a beer hand-up and ordering a Ridley with Zipp Firecrests to prep for catting down to the kiddie 'cross. Gotta keep an eye on that Tom.

Steve Young

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012, Stewart Campbell wrote:

So I have not been following this thread at all, but I keep on seeing the subject line. All I can think of is how the cat felt after being dropped. Poor cat.

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

I'm sure Buerkle is a great guy, and is certainly a fast racer. Congrats! But he was up to 22 upgrade points after PIR, two weeks before the start of the Masters C race at Winter Cross. He should not have raced in that category again this weekend, and in my opinion should not be getting 1st place in the series as a result of failing to upgrade, unless he's competing against the slew of other GPTB Masters C racers who were bumped out of that category as well (me, Ketner, Marjama, Crepeau, Thompson, Gutwald, Rees, Drucker, Hewett, etc).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Matthew Case
To: Matt Westermeyer ; javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'obra@list.obra.org');
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

Totally agree with you there.

On 12/5/12, Matt Westermeyer wrote:
> In defense of Jason Buerkle who is a friend of mine, he raced Master C all
> year. At Winter Cross immediately after racing (and winning) master C's, he
> raced the Master B's which was his first race at that higher cat. I'm not
> sure how that is sandbagging or comparable to the other examples where
> somebody raced (and at times competed) in higher categories, only to drop
> down and race a lower cat for State Championships.
> I'm all for calling people out, but take a look before you do and make sure
> you know what you're calling out.
> _______________________________________________
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> javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'obra@list.obra.org');
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org');
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Matthew Case

2012-12-06

Pretty sure I saw one of these folks actually peeing on the podium while
taking a beer hand-up and ordering a Ridley with Zipp Firecrests to prep
for catting down to the kiddie 'cross. Gotta keep an eye on that Tom.

Steve Young

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012, Stewart Campbell wrote:

> So I have not been following this thread at all, but I keep on seeing the
> subject line. All I can think of is how the cat felt after being dropped.
> Poor cat.
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>
> I'm sure Buerkle is a great guy, and is certainly a fast racer. Congrats!
> But he was up to 22 upgrade points after PIR, two weeks before the start
> of the Masters C race at Winter Cross. He should not have raced in that
> category again this weekend, and in my opinion should not be getting 1st
> place in the series as a result of failing to upgrade, unless he's
> competing against the slew of other GPTB Masters C racers who were bumped
> out of that category as well (me, Ketner, Marjama, Crepeau, Thompson,
> Gutwald, Rees, Drucker, Hewett, etc).
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Matthew Case 'lug.junkie@gmail.com');>>
> *To:* Matt Westermeyer 'westma1@gmail.com');>>; obra@list.obra.org 'obra@list.obra.org');>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>
> Totally agree with you there.
>
> On 12/5/12, Matt Westermeyer 'cvml', 'westma1@gmail.com');>> wrote:
> > In defense of Jason Buerkle who is a friend of mine, he raced Master C
> all
> > year. At Winter Cross immediately after racing (and winning) master C's,
> he
> > raced the Master B's which was his first race at that higher cat. I'm not
> > sure how that is sandbagging or comparable to the other examples where
> > somebody raced (and at times competed) in higher categories, only to drop
> > down and race a lower cat for State Championships.
> > I'm all for calling people out, but take a look before you do and make
> sure
> > you know what you're calling out.
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org 'obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org');>
> >
>
> --
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>
>
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>


Stewart Campbell

2012-12-06

So I have not been following this thread at all, but I keep on seeing the subject line.  All I can think of is how the cat felt after being dropped.  Poor cat.

________________________________
From: Dan Anderson
To: "obra@list.obra.org"
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

I'm sure Buerkle is a great guy, and is certainly a fast racer.  Congrats!  But he was up to 22 upgrade points after PIR, two weeks before the start of the Masters C race at Winter Cross.  He should not have raced in that category again this weekend, and in my opinion should not be getting 1st place in the series as a result of failing to upgrade, unless he's competing against the slew of other GPTB Masters C racers who were bumped out of that category as well (me, Ketner, Marjama, Crepeau, Thompson, Gutwald, Rees, Drucker, Hewett, etc).

________________________________
From: Matthew Case
To: Matt Westermeyer ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

Totally agree with you there.

On 12/5/12, Matt Westermeyer wrote:
> In defense of Jason Buerkle who is a friend of mine, he raced Master C all
> year. At Winter Cross immediately after racing (and winning) master C's, he
> raced the Master B's which was his first race at that higher cat. I'm not
> sure how that is sandbagging or comparable to the other examples where
> somebody raced (and at times competed) in higher categories, only to drop
> down and race a lower cat for State Championships.
> I'm all for calling people out, but take a look before you do and make sure
> you know what you're calling out.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
>
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

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Mark J. Ginsberg

2012-12-06

I was DFL 2x and DFL +1 once this year in the Master Bs.
As Casey Stengle said, "look it up, it's a fact"
In fact Dave Alderbees still owes me some DFL beer, how's that for sandbagging?

Can we all please talk about what category I should compete in Classical Dressage? 

oh, now that we know the issue in this case, shall we let the officials do their thing? somewhere some 0000s and 1111s are missing their mommy and daddy b/c we've wasted them.

thanks

 
Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Candi Murray
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

In reference to the State Champs
If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?
You guys are a little harsh here.
Candi
 
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Matthew Case

2012-12-06

So glad I turned the burner on for this thread. FTW. I totally sandbagged
this thread too.

Steve Young has a Posse

On Wednesday, December 5, 2012, wrote:

> Craig, Matt and even Mitt Romney!
> Yeah. I was following the whole story, but I was also reading Fear and
> Loathing in Las Vegas.
> You all know I am a child with no frame of reference. Yes I have wandered
> into this movie called life and don’t know who I am or where I am going.
> It used to scare me...not knowing what would happen. I missed the PG rated
> previews. Then I found Cyclocross. Now I know when I die, I will get to
> ride my favorite type of course as much as I please. Until then you guys
> have to put up with my lameness. But remember I am old so there will come
> a time of silence from this end.
> For now...when not racing or riding get out there and see some good live
> music. Electronic gadgets are great, but live (like racing) is where it is
> at!
> I am going to cat down now.
> ronnie
>
> *From:* craig austin 'useyourdagger@gmail.com');>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 5:50 PM
> *To:* matt Savage
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org 'obra@list.obra.org');>
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>
> Finally, an OBRA post that makes perfect sense.
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 5:14 PM, matt Savage wrote:
>
> *Matt*: Ron, were you listening to our story?
> *Ron:* I was riding my bicycle...
> *Matt*: So you have no frame of reference here, Ron. You're like a child
> who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
> *Candi*: Matt, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here,
> what the fu** are you talking about?
> *Matt*: Huh? No, what the fu** are you... I'm not... We're talking about *
> unchecked* *cyclocross* *sandbagging* here, dude.
> *Ron*: What the fu** is he talking about?
> *Candi*: Sandbagging...
> *Matt*: Forget it, Ronny, you're out of your element!
>
> http://youtu.be/AS8X2Qp_6aA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 4:45 PM, wrote:
>
> Can’t we just make it so everyone wins? Each person can have his / her
> own cat. and just pretend to race the others on the course. No need to
> cat-up. You have your own special cat for life. Problem solved.
> Face it people. Everyone races for his / her own personal reason. Some
> want to win more than anything, some to constantly improve, others just
> burn calories to justify ice cream and beer, even some want to be all warm
> and fuzzy with others nearby. If there are rules about this stuff and they
> were broken, then like Lance, the title will go away. If the guy was out
> there doing his best, just let it go, do yourself a favor and move on. Or
> just become one with the idea of winning at all costs and get him next
> season...........or at USGP or Santa Cross.
> my 2 cents
> ron
>
>
> *From:* matt Savage
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:10 PM
> *To:*
>
>


rondot@spiritone.com

2012-12-06

Craig, Matt and even Mitt Romney!
Yeah. I was following the whole story, but I was also reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.
You all know I am a child with no frame of reference. Yes I have wandered into this movie called life and don’t know who I am or where I am going. It used to scare me...not knowing what would happen. I missed the PG rated previews. Then I found Cyclocross. Now I know when I die, I will get to ride my favorite type of course as much as I please. Until then you guys have to put up with my lameness. But remember I am old so there will come a time of silence from this end.
For now...when not racing or riding get out there and see some good live music. Electronic gadgets are great, but live (like racing) is where it is at!
I am going to cat down now.
ronnie

From: craig austin
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 5:50 PM
To: matt Savage
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

Finally, an OBRA post that makes perfect sense.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 5:14 PM, matt Savage wrote:

Matt: Ron, were you listening to our story?
Ron: I was riding my bicycle...
Matt: So you have no frame of reference here, Ron. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
Candi: Matt, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here, what the fu** are you talking about?
Matt: Huh? No, what the fu** are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked cyclocross sandbagging here, dude.
Ron: What the fu** is he talking about?
Candi: Sandbagging...
Matt: Forget it, Ronny, you're out of your element!

http://youtu.be/AS8X2Qp_6aA

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 4:45 PM, wrote:

Can’t we just make it so everyone wins? Each person can have his / her own cat. and just pretend to race the others on the course. No need to cat-up. You have your own special cat for life. Problem solved.
Face it people. Everyone races for his / her own personal reason. Some want to win more than anything, some to constantly improve, others just burn calories to justify ice cream and beer, even some want to be all warm and fuzzy with others nearby. If there are rules about this stuff and they were broken, then like Lance, the title will go away. If the guy was out there doing his best, just let it go, do yourself a favor and move on. Or just become one with the idea of winning at all costs and get him next season...........or at USGP or Santa Cross.
my 2 cents
ron

From: matt Savage
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:10 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

I think peoples reactions are fair... He (State Champ. Mast. B 3rd place finisher) had several top 3 finishes in Mast B last year and, with a couple exceptions, was a consistent midpack to upper 50% range finisher in Mast A's this year, right there beside many of the Mast B racers who were forced to cat up THIS season. His performance may have not been as good as he wanted, but it was consistent with the performance of others who had cat'd up and stayed there.

I don't think his previous results showed "lack of ability to compete in current category; or lack of placing within current category" at all.

By the looks of it, all top three finishers kind of sand bagged it... Not that I'm complaining, I could've been a consistent mid pack Mast. A finisher this year, if it wasn't for those pesky tubeless tires...

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

In reference to the State Champs

If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?

You guys are a little harsh here.

Candi

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craig austin

2012-12-06

Finally, an OBRA post that makes perfect sense.

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 5:14 PM, matt Savage wrote:

> *Matt*: Ron, were you listening to our story?
> *Ron:* I was riding my bicycle...
> *Matt*: So you have no frame of reference here, Ron. You're like a child
> who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
> *Candi*: Matt, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here,
> what the fu** are you talking about?
> *Matt*: Huh? No, what the fu** are you... I'm not... We're talking about *
> unchecked* *cyclocross* *sandbagging* here, dude.
> *Ron*: What the fu** is he talking about?
> *Candi*: Sandbagging...
> *Matt*: Forget it, Ronny, you're out of your element!
>
> http://youtu.be/AS8X2Qp_6aA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 4:45 PM, wrote:
>
>> Can’t we just make it so everyone wins? Each person can have his /
>> her own cat. and just pretend to race the others on the course. No need to
>> cat-up. You have your own special cat for life. Problem solved.
>> Face it people. Everyone races for his / her own personal reason. Some
>> want to win more than anything, some to constantly improve, others just
>> burn calories to justify ice cream and beer, even some want to be all warm
>> and fuzzy with others nearby. If there are rules about this stuff and they
>> were broken, then like Lance, the title will go away. If the guy was out
>> there doing his best, just let it go, do yourself a favor and move on. Or
>> just become one with the idea of winning at all costs and get him next
>> season...........or at USGP or Santa Cross.
>> my 2 cents
>> ron
>>
>>
>> *From:* matt Savage
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:10 PM
>> *To:* cmurray@obra.org
>> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>>
>> I think peoples reactions are fair... He (State Champ. Mast. B 3rd place
>> finisher) had several top 3 finishes in Mast B last year and, with a couple
>> exceptions, was a consistent midpack to upper 50% range finisher in Mast
>> A's this year, right there beside many of the Mast B racers who were forced
>> to cat up THIS season. His performance may have not been as good as he
>> wanted, but it was consistent with the performance of others who had cat'd
>> up and stayed there.
>>
>> I don't think his previous results showed "lack of ability to compete in
>> current category; or lack of placing within current category" at all.
>>
>> By the looks of it, all top three finishers kind of *sand bagged* it...
>> Not that I'm complaining, I could've been a consistent mid pack Mast. A
>> finisher this year, if it wasn't for those pesky *tubeless tires.*..
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>>
>>> In reference to the State Champs****
>>>
>>> If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even
>>> farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?****
>>>
>>> You guys are a little harsh here.****
>>>
>>> Candi****
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
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>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>
>


grantcollins@ymail.com

2012-12-06

I get the strangest looks from Parents when I tell my 8 year old son to bring home the "W"?! Racing is to win 1. 2. 3.....

Thanks GC
425-780-0374

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2012, at 4:45 PM, wrote:

> Can’t we just make it so everyone wins? Each person can have his / her own cat. and just pretend to race the others on the course. No need to cat-up. You have your own special cat for life. Problem solved.
> Face it people. Everyone races for his / her own personal reason. Some want to win more than anything, some to constantly improve, others just burn calories to justify ice cream and beer, even some want to be all warm and fuzzy with others nearby. If there are rules about this stuff and they were broken, then like Lance, the title will go away. If the guy was out there doing his best, just let it go, do yourself a favor and move on. Or just become one with the idea of winning at all costs and get him next season...........or at USGP or Santa Cross.
> my 2 cents
> ron
>
>
> From: matt Savage
> Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:10 PM
> To: cmurray@obra.org
> Cc: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>
> I think peoples reactions are fair... He (State Champ. Mast. B 3rd place finisher) had several top 3 finishes in Mast B last year and, with a couple exceptions, was a consistent midpack to upper 50% range finisher in Mast A's this year, right there beside many of the Mast B racers who were forced to cat up THIS season. His performance may have not been as good as he wanted, but it was consistent with the performance of others who had cat'd up and stayed there.
>
> I don't think his previous results showed "lack of ability to compete in current category; or lack of placing within current category" at all.
>
> By the looks of it, all top three finishers kind of sand bagged it... Not that I'm complaining, I could've been a consistent mid pack Mast. A finisher this year, if it wasn't for those pesky tubeless tires...
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>> In reference to the State Champs
>>
>> If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?
>>
>> You guys are a little harsh here.
>>
>> Candi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> obra@list.obra.org
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Andy Kaylor

2012-12-06

Wait...the winner of a Master C race was sandbagging? Really? That calls my entire world view into question. Or maybe not.

I recently had too much time on my hands so I used the points reports on crossresults.com to analyze sandbagging at the last three Cross Crusade races. The crossresults.com site gives you a breakdown of rider points for each race. I used that data to create three equal sized groups each for the men's and master men's categories to figure out how the A, B and C groups should objectively be divided. It turns out the about 20% of the non-masters and about 40% of the masters are sandbagging. There are also people in each race who the analysis says should downgrade.

Details here if you share my penchant for wasting time:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoOef5J95AZNdHcwLWU0d1dLeWtIZjM2SldmUERvZGc

Things get a lot better if you divide the racers into four groups instead of three (based on the reasonable belief that there really should be a D group) but even then there are a few people in the Master C race who should actually be in the Master A group.

Note that no names were used in this analysis, so it's purely scientific and objective.

Note also from the crossresults.com FAQ:

Q. YOUR POINTS LIST IS FULL OF CRAP!
A. Oh, but it's scientific crap. Don't be a hater. (followed by an explanation of how it works)

Really, I think Ron is right, but it's so much more fun to whine about it.


matt Savage

2012-12-06

*Matt*: Ron, were you listening to our story?
*Ron:* I was riding my bicycle...
*Matt*: So you have no frame of reference here, Ron. You're like a child
who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...
*Candi*: Matt, what is the point? Look, we all know who is at fault here,
what the fu** are you talking about?
*Matt*: Huh? No, what the fu** are you... I'm not... We're talking about *
unchecked* *cyclocross* *sandbagging* here, dude.
*Ron*: What the fu** is he talking about?
*Candi*: Sandbagging...
*Matt*: Forget it, Ronny, you're out of your element!

http://youtu.be/AS8X2Qp_6aA

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 4:45 PM, wrote:

> Can’t we just make it so everyone wins? Each person can have his / her
> own cat. and just pretend to race the others on the course. No need to
> cat-up. You have your own special cat for life. Problem solved.
> Face it people. Everyone races for his / her own personal reason. Some
> want to win more than anything, some to constantly improve, others just
> burn calories to justify ice cream and beer, even some want to be all warm
> and fuzzy with others nearby. If there are rules about this stuff and they
> were broken, then like Lance, the title will go away. If the guy was out
> there doing his best, just let it go, do yourself a favor and move on. Or
> just become one with the idea of winning at all costs and get him next
> season...........or at USGP or Santa Cross.
> my 2 cents
> ron
>
>
> *From:* matt Savage
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:10 PM
> *To:* cmurray@obra.org
> *Cc:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>
> I think peoples reactions are fair... He (State Champ. Mast. B 3rd place
> finisher) had several top 3 finishes in Mast B last year and, with a couple
> exceptions, was a consistent midpack to upper 50% range finisher in Mast
> A's this year, right there beside many of the Mast B racers who were forced
> to cat up THIS season. His performance may have not been as good as he
> wanted, but it was consistent with the performance of others who had cat'd
> up and stayed there.
>
> I don't think his previous results showed "lack of ability to compete in
> current category; or lack of placing within current category" at all.
>
> By the looks of it, all top three finishers kind of *sand bagged* it...
> Not that I'm complaining, I could've been a consistent mid pack Mast. A
> finisher this year, if it wasn't for those pesky *tubeless tires.*..
>
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Candi Murray wrote:
>
>> In reference to the State Champs****
>>
>> If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even
>> farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?****
>>
>> You guys are a little harsh here.****
>>
>> Candi****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------
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> obra@list.obra.org
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>


rondot@spiritone.com

2012-12-06

Can’t we just make it so everyone wins? Each person can have his / her own cat. and just pretend to race the others on the course. No need to cat-up. You have your own special cat for life. Problem solved.
Face it people. Everyone races for his / her own personal reason. Some want to win more than anything, some to constantly improve, others just burn calories to justify ice cream and beer, even some want to be all warm and fuzzy with others nearby. If there are rules about this stuff and they were broken, then like Lance, the title will go away. If the guy was out there doing his best, just let it go, do yourself a favor and move on. Or just become one with the idea of winning at all costs and get him next season...........or at USGP or Santa Cross.
my 2 cents
ron

From: matt Savage
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 4:10 PM
To: cmurray@obra.org
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

I think peoples reactions are fair... He (State Champ. Mast. B 3rd place finisher) had several top 3 finishes in Mast B last year and, with a couple exceptions, was a consistent midpack to upper 50% range finisher in Mast A's this year, right there beside many of the Mast B racers who were forced to cat up THIS season. His performance may have not been as good as he wanted, but it was consistent with the performance of others who had cat'd up and stayed there.

I don't think his previous results showed "lack of ability to compete in current category; or lack of placing within current category" at all.

By the looks of it, all top three finishers kind of sand bagged it... Not that I'm complaining, I could've been a consistent mid pack Mast. A finisher this year, if it wasn't for those pesky tubeless tires...

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

In reference to the State Champs

If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?

You guys are a little harsh here.

Candi

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Greg O'Brien

2012-12-06

body{font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}p{margin:0px;}OK, I'm being a bit lazy and not reading through all the rules, but I thought you could only downgrade after a season of "no points" results AND officials discretion.  My own feeling is you're in the Cat for the season, so stick it out and don't downgrade at the end just to poach points or a podium placing.

Greg

-----Original Message-----

From: Candi Murray

Sent: Dec 5, 2012 2:59 PM

To: obra@list.obra.org

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?



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In reference to the State Champs


If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?


You guys are a little harsh here.


Candi


 




Candi Murray

2012-12-06

Good point. I know we are changing the self selection policy to not allow anyone to self select A. All A riders will have to earn it.
We can deliniate the downgrade guidelines also.
Thanks.

Candi

On Dec 5, 2012, at 3:55 PM, Mike Szwaya wrote:

> It could just be that there's no guidelines for downgrading stated anywhere other than "At rider's discretion and approval by OBRA".
>
> What's OBRA's official or unofficial stance?
>
> The OBRA officials and other racers generally give a little leeway on category selection for people just starting CX. What people don't seem to understand though is that once you get a little experience, you need to at least ask first before moving yourself down. I think the upgrade rules should be clarified where once you have done 3-5 races, you're no longer really able to self-select your category.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


matt Savage

2012-12-06

I think peoples reactions are fair... He (State Champ. Mast. B 3rd place
finisher) had several top 3 finishes in Mast B last year and, with a couple
exceptions, was a consistent midpack to upper 50% range finisher in Mast
A's this year, right there beside many of the Mast B racers who were forced
to cat up THIS season. His performance may have not been as good as he
wanted, but it was consistent with the performance of others who had cat'd
up and stayed there.

I don't think his previous results showed "lack of ability to compete in
current category; or lack of placing within current category" at all.

By the looks of it, all top three finishers kind of *sand bagged* it...
Not that I'm complaining, I could've been a consistent mid pack Mast. A
finisher this year, if it wasn't for those pesky *tubeless tires.*..

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 2:59 PM, Candi Murray wrote:

> In reference to the State Champs****
>
> If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even
> farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?****
>
> You guys are a little harsh here.****
>
> Candi****
>
> ** **
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Mike Szwaya

2012-12-05

It could just be that there's no guidelines for downgrading stated anywhere other than "At rider's discretion and approval by OBRA".

What's OBRA's official or unofficial stance?

The OBRA officials and other racers generally give a little leeway on category selection for people just starting CX. What people don't seem to understand though is that once you get a little experience, you need to at least ask first before moving yourself down. I think the upgrade rules should be clarified where once you have done 3-5 races, you're no longer really able to self-select your category.


Candi Murray

2012-12-05

In reference to the State Champs

If you have been placing in the last 1/3 of the races, sometimes even
farther back, why is not ok to downgrade?

You guys are a little harsh here.

Candi


Dan Anderson

2012-12-05

Oh boy, those are the 2011 rules.  Here are the 2012 rules, which were sent out as a reminder by Candi in September.

Cyclocross Upgrades for Men
Placing
Number of Starters
1-15
16-25
26-60
60+
1 3 5 7 10
2 2 4 6 8
3 1 3 5 7
4 2 4 5
5 1 3 4
6 2 3
7 1 2
8 1
20 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade.

Additionally, you're not supposed to race in A & B or B & C on the same day for the same age group.  If you want to race multiple times, you should be doing singlespeed, clydes, unicycle.

________________________________
From: sean
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

Cx rules state 3 podiums or 5 top 5s is an upgrade. Winter cx was his 3rd podium. This dude should by no means be getting scolded over the internet. He should be getting the hard man award of the day for races two races!

He deserves whatever success he's had and did the right thing by upgrading LITERALLY immediately.

From

Dan Anderson

I'm sure Buerkle is a great guy, and is certainly a fast racer.  Congrats!  But he was up to 22 upgrade points after PIR, two weeks before the start of the Masters C race at Winter Cross.  He should not have raced in that category again this weekend, and in my opinion should not be getting 1st place in the series as a result of failing to upgrade, unless he's competing against the slew of other GPTB Masters C racers who were bumped out of that category as well (me, Ketner, Marjama, Crepeau, Thompson, Gutwald, Rees, Drucker, Hewett, etc).
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Cx rules state 3 podiums or 5 top 5s is an upgrade. Winter cx was his 3rd podium. This dude should by no means be getting scolded over the internet. He should be getting the hard man award of the day for races two races!

He deserves whatever success he's had and did the right thing by upgrading LITERALLY immediately.

From

Dan Anderson

I'm sure Buerkle is a great guy, and is certainly a fast racer. Congrats! But he was up to 22 upgrade points after PIR, two weeks before the start of the Masters C race at Winter Cross. He should not have raced in that category again this weekend, and in my opinion should not be getting 1st place in the series as a result of failing to upgrade, unless he's competing against the slew of other GPTB Masters C racers who were bumped out of that category as well (me, Ketner, Marjama, Crepeau, Thompson, Gutwald, Rees, Drucker, Hewett, etc).


Dan Anderson

2012-12-05

I'm sure Buerkle is a great guy, and is certainly a fast racer.  Congrats!  But he was up to 22 upgrade points after PIR, two weeks before the start of the Masters C race at Winter Cross.  He should not have raced in that category again this weekend, and in my opinion should not be getting 1st place in the series as a result of failing to upgrade, unless he's competing against the slew of other GPTB Masters C racers who were bumped out of that category as well (me, Ketner, Marjama, Crepeau, Thompson, Gutwald, Rees, Drucker, Hewett, etc).

________________________________
From: Matthew Case
To: Matt Westermeyer ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

Totally agree with you there.

On 12/5/12, Matt Westermeyer wrote:
> In defense of Jason Buerkle who is a friend of mine, he raced Master C all
> year. At Winter Cross immediately after racing (and winning) master C's, he
> raced the Master B's which was his first race at that higher cat. I'm not
> sure how that is sandbagging or comparable to the other examples where
> somebody raced (and at times competed) in higher categories, only to drop
> down and race a lower cat for State Championships.
> I'm all for calling people out, but take a look before you do and make sure
> you know what you're calling out.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
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Matthew Case

2012-12-05

Totally agree with you there.

On 12/5/12, Matt Westermeyer wrote:
> In defense of Jason Buerkle who is a friend of mine, he raced Master C all
> year. At Winter Cross immediately after racing (and winning) master C's, he
> raced the Master B's which was his first race at that higher cat. I'm not
> sure how that is sandbagging or comparable to the other examples where
> somebody raced (and at times competed) in higher categories, only to drop
> down and race a lower cat for State Championships.
> I'm all for calling people out, but take a look before you do and make sure
> you know what you're calling out.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Sent from my mobile device


Matt Westermeyer

2012-12-05

In defense of Jason Buerkle who is a friend of mine, he raced Master C all year. At Winter Cross immediately after racing (and winning) master C's, he raced the Master B's which was his first race at that higher cat. I'm not sure how that is sandbagging or comparable to the other examples where somebody raced (and at times competed) in higher categories, only to drop down and race a lower cat for State Championships.
I'm all for calling people out, but take a look before you do and make sure you know what you're calling out.


matt Savage

2012-12-05

He's just lucky I wasn't there... That nearly two minute lead would've
been whittled down to about 1:30 or so...!

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:

> And of course there was the B+ winner at Winter Cross (
> http://agentlemanracer.com/). A cat 1/2 road racer ...
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Dan Anderson wrote:
>
>> ...and Masters B + Masters C on the same day:
>> http://obra.org/people/76038/2012
>>
>> As far as I know there's no penalty for doing this. Only rewards.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Rob Anderson
>> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:27 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>>
>> there was also this bit of weirdness (Master B -> C) on Sunday at Winter
>> Cross:
>> http://obra.org/people/39166/2012
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Brooke Hoyer

2012-12-05

And of course there was the B+ winner at Winter Cross (
http://agentlemanracer.com/). A cat 1/2 road racer ...

On Wed, Dec 5, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Dan Anderson wrote:

> ...and Masters B + Masters C on the same day:
> http://obra.org/people/76038/2012
>
> As far as I know there's no penalty for doing this. Only rewards.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Rob Anderson
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:27 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?
>
> there was also this bit of weirdness (Master B -> C) on Sunday at Winter
> Cross:
> http://obra.org/people/39166/2012
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
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>
>
>
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>


Dan Anderson

2012-12-05

...and Masters B + Masters C on the same day:  
http://obra.org/people/76038/2012

As far as I know there's no penalty for doing this.  Only rewards.  

________________________________
From: Rob Anderson
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 5, 2012 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Drop a Cat and Podium at OBRA CX Champs?

there was also this bit of weirdness (Master B -> C) on Sunday at Winter Cross:
http://obra.org/people/39166/2012 
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Rob Anderson

2012-12-05

there was also this bit of weirdness (Master B -> C) on Sunday at Winter Cross:
http://obra.org/people/39166/2012


jacobt105@gmail.com

2012-12-05

Im gonna cat down to beginners so I can finish mid pack.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 4, 2012, at 9:14 PM, Matthew Case wrote:

> 7 Top 35's in the Master A's and could only pull a 3rd in Master B's for the Championships?
>
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:18 PM, T. Kenji Sugahara wrote:
>> Good question. We'll look into it.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:15 PM, David Rasca wrote:
>> >
>> > a friend pointed this out to me:
>> >
>> > http://obra.org/people/73244/2012
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kenji Sugahara
>> Executive Director
>> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
>> Phone: 503-278-5550
>> http://www.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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Matthew Case

2012-12-05

7 Top 35's in the Master A's and could only pull a 3rd in Master B's for
the Championships?

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:18 PM, T. Kenji Sugahara wrote:

> Good question. We'll look into it.
>
> On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:15 PM, David Rasca
> wrote:
> >
> > a friend pointed this out to me:
> >
> > http://obra.org/people/73244/2012
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Kenji Sugahara
> Executive Director
> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
> Phone: 503-278-5550
> http://www.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
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T. Kenji Sugahara

2012-12-04

Good question. We'll look into it.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 1:15 PM, David Rasca wrote:
>
> a friend pointed this out to me:
>
> http://obra.org/people/73244/2012
>
>
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>

--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org


David Rasca

2012-12-04

a friend pointed this out to me:

http://obra.org/people/73244/2012