Brooke Hoyer

Hey, didn't I just say that once I decided not to be a smartass? Lolz.

You can treat traction as a finite resource. The more you use for braking,
the less you will have available for turning.

As MB says, get your braking done just before you *need* it. And as I
suggested, don't over think front/rear.

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:54 PM, Martin Baker wrote:

> There is another element to this whole which/how much/how hard braking
> discussion and that is where/when. If you know you're approaching a
> slippery off camber section, make sure you get your braking done before you
> get to it so you can cruise across off the brakes. Likewise, if you're
> approaching a slippery hairpin with some speed, get the bike slowed before
> you turn in while it is still upright. Stuff like that.
>
> mb
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Sarah Tisdale wrote:
>
>> A sloppy/greasy/muddy CX race pretty much shouts "MOAR HANDFULS OF REAR
>> BRAKE!"
>>
>> Playing Dukes of Hazzard in the mud may not be the fastest, but its tons
>> of fun!
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>>
>>> This is really interesting and helpful. I appreciate it all of you.
>>> This explains one of my nasty crashes this season - a front wheel washout
>>> in a descending, off-camber section in the slop. About broke my leg on it.
>>> I too used mini-v's this season and they were hard to get used to. I have
>>> plenty of power and stamina to do really well in cross, but struggle with
>>> my handling - especially once it gets sloppy. I give up any gaps I open up
>>> once I get into technical sections or descents. I have long suspected
>>> braking as a key reason and this confirms things.
>>>
>>> Drew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:11:26 -0800
>>> From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Braking Question
>>>
>>> Brakes just slow you down!
>>>
>>> Rick Johnson
>>> Bend Oregon
>>>
>>> * * *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/6/2012 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>>>
>>> OBRALand -
>>> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when
>>> braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be
>>> heavier on the front or the rear?
>>>
>>> Thanks-
>>>
>>> Drew
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe:
>>> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Martin Baker

There is another element to this whole which/how much/how hard braking
discussion and that is where/when. If you know you're approaching a
slippery off camber section, make sure you get your braking done before you
get to it so you can cruise across off the brakes. Likewise, if you're
approaching a slippery hairpin with some speed, get the bike slowed before
you turn in while it is still upright. Stuff like that.

mb

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Sarah Tisdale wrote:

> A sloppy/greasy/muddy CX race pretty much shouts "MOAR HANDFULS OF REAR
> BRAKE!"
>
> Playing Dukes of Hazzard in the mud may not be the fastest, but its tons
> of fun!
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>
>> This is really interesting and helpful. I appreciate it all of you.
>> This explains one of my nasty crashes this season - a front wheel washout
>> in a descending, off-camber section in the slop. About broke my leg on it.
>> I too used mini-v's this season and they were hard to get used to. I have
>> plenty of power and stamina to do really well in cross, but struggle with
>> my handling - especially once it gets sloppy. I give up any gaps I open up
>> once I get into technical sections or descents. I have long suspected
>> braking as a key reason and this confirms things.
>>
>> Drew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:11:26 -0800
>> From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Braking Question
>>
>> Brakes just slow you down!
>>
>> Rick Johnson
>> Bend Oregon
>>
>> * * *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/6/2012 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>>
>> OBRALand -
>> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when
>> braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be
>> heavier on the front or the rear?
>>
>> Thanks-
>>
>> Drew
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe:
>> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Sarah Tisdale

A sloppy/greasy/muddy CX race pretty much shouts "MOAR HANDFULS OF REAR
BRAKE!"

Playing Dukes of Hazzard in the mud may not be the fastest, but its tons of
fun!

Sarah

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:06 PM, Drew Coleman wrote:

> This is really interesting and helpful. I appreciate it all of you.
> This explains one of my nasty crashes this season - a front wheel washout
> in a descending, off-camber section in the slop. About broke my leg on it.
> I too used mini-v's this season and they were hard to get used to. I have
> plenty of power and stamina to do really well in cross, but struggle with
> my handling - especially once it gets sloppy. I give up any gaps I open up
> once I get into technical sections or descents. I have long suspected
> braking as a key reason and this confirms things.
>
> Drew
>
>
>
>
> Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:11:26 -0800
> From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
>
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Braking Question
>
> Brakes just slow you down!
>
> Rick Johnson
> Bend Oregon
>
> * * *
>
>
>
>
> On 12/6/2012 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>
> OBRALand -
> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when braking
> in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be heavier
> on the front or the rear?
>
> Thanks-
>
> Drew
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing listobra@list.obra.orghttp://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obraUnsubscribe:
> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Drew Coleman

This is really interesting and helpful. I appreciate it all of you. This explains one of my nasty crashes this season - a front wheel washout in a descending, off-camber section in the slop. About broke my leg on it. I too used mini-v's this season and they were hard to get used to. I have plenty of power and stamina to do really well in cross, but struggle with my handling - especially once it gets sloppy. I give up any gaps I open up once I get into technical sections or descents. I have long suspected braking as a key reason and this confirms things.
Drew

Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2012 12:11:26 -0800
From: rickcjohnson1@gmail.com
To: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Braking Question

Brakes just slow you down!

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

On 12/6/2012 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:

OBRALand -
I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but
when braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it
preferable to be heavier on the front or the rear?

Thanks-

Drew

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Brakes just slow you down!

Rick Johnson
Bend Oregon

* * *

On 12/6/2012 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:
> OBRALand -
> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when
> braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable
> to be heavier on the front or the rear?
>
> Thanks-
>
> Drew
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

=?utf-8?B?YmlrZXRyb3lAY29tY2FzdC5uZXQ=?=

If, big if, you have traction, Front is better

Sent from my HTC Inspire™ 4G on AT&T

----- Reply message -----
From: "Drew Coleman"
To: "obra@list.obra.org"
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Braking Question
Date: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 1:11 pm
OBRALand - I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be heavier on the front or the rear?
Thanks-
Drew

Brooke Hoyer

I admit to being a smartass.

Shane does a good job of pointing out how there are a ton of variables out
there regarding braking. However, I am a firm believer in thinking as
little as possible while racing. If you can reduce the overall number of on
the bike decisions you have to make, the better. In that vein, I suggest
not over thinking the front v. rear thing. Instead, think along the lines
of brake or not. Unless you are going down a gnarly descent, brake before
you need it and judiciously apply leg power thereafter.

The number one thing to understand is that braking reduces your traction.
That should underscore my suggestion to brake before you need it.

My work is done here ...

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Shane Gibson wrote:

>
> To expand upon Brooke's profound and deep technical analysis ... :)
>
> He's right ... though, 'It depends". But here are some general rules I
> would use...
>
> * generally speaking; 70 to 80% braking should be front brake
> * unless you want to slide the rear end around under lock-up on purpose
> * unless you are entering into a greasy section, off camber or at an
> angle (eg not perfectly perpendicular to the surface)
>
> Too much front braking under greasy and/or off camber can get the front
> end to slide out from under you - then you have to release the front brake
> and pray your tire selection is good, and the traction kicks in to right
> you (as opposed to wrong you ...).
>
> Then you get in to all kinds of permutations based on your riding position
> on the bike. Weight forward, weight back, weight centered ... all in
> relation to the terrain. Is the terrain off camber? Are you leaning the
> bike? What is the surface condition like? Variables like wet roots or
> rocky conditions ... well, it can get surprisingly complicated when you try
> and analyze "what you should do".
>
> It's not a silly question - the better you can brake - the faster you can
> go. If you can brake later before entering a corner, under control, and
> slow quicker, you spend less time braking. More time going fast.
>
> Your best bet is to ditch any silly arsed rim brake setup and go with disc
> brakes. I know of an awesome local company making Titanium based CX frames
> with Disc brake setup ... http://www.sage-cycles.com/ Everybody should
> put one of these on their wish list for the 2013 season, or get one now as
> a rain bike then race it next season. :)
>
> ~~shane
>
>
> --
> "Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:
>
>> It depends™
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>>
>>> OBRALand -
>>> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when
>>> braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be
>>> heavier on the front or the rear?
>>>
>>> Thanks-
>>>
>>> Drew
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>

Wood, Nicholas C

I'll second the 'It depends(tm)' comment...course conditions, lean angle, bar/wheel position + 9000 other variables. With that being said, my front brake pads wear much quicker than my rear.
Nick Wood
Intel Corporation
Contract Manager
503.349.6742 cell

From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Hoyer
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 11:19 AM
To: Drew Coleman
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Braking Question

It depends(tm)
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman > wrote:
OBRALand -
I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be heavier on the front or the rear?

Thanks-

Drew

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Shane Gibson

To expand upon Brooke's profound and deep technical analysis ... :)

He's right ... though, 'It depends". But here are some general rules I
would use...

* generally speaking; 70 to 80% braking should be front brake
* unless you want to slide the rear end around under lock-up on purpose
* unless you are entering into a greasy section, off camber or at an angle
(eg not perfectly perpendicular to the surface)

Too much front braking under greasy and/or off camber can get the front end
to slide out from under you - then you have to release the front brake and
pray your tire selection is good, and the traction kicks in to right you
(as opposed to wrong you ...).

Then you get in to all kinds of permutations based on your riding position
on the bike. Weight forward, weight back, weight centered ... all in
relation to the terrain. Is the terrain off camber? Are you leaning the
bike? What is the surface condition like? Variables like wet roots or
rocky conditions ... well, it can get surprisingly complicated when you try
and analyze "what you should do".

It's not a silly question - the better you can brake - the faster you can
go. If you can brake later before entering a corner, under control, and
slow quicker, you spend less time braking. More time going fast.

Your best bet is to ditch any silly arsed rim brake setup and go with disc
brakes. I know of an awesome local company making Titanium based CX frames
with Disc brake setup ... http://www.sage-cycles.com/ Everybody should
put one of these on their wish list for the 2013 season, or get one now as
a rain bike then race it next season. :)

~~shane

--
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized." - Sun Tzu

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Brooke Hoyer wrote:

> It depends™
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:
>
>> OBRALand -
>> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when
>> braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be
>> heavier on the front or the rear?
>>
>> Thanks-
>>
>> Drew
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Brooke Hoyer

It depends™

On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Drew Coleman wrote:

> OBRALand -
> I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when braking
> in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be heavier
> on the front or the rear?
>
> Thanks-
>
> Drew
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Drew Coleman

OBRALand - I realize that this may seem like an elementary question, but when braking in cross (yes, it does happen), in general, is it preferable to be heavier on the front or the rear?
Thanks-
Drew