OBRA: OBRA Chat: Criteria to race in Masters

Tom Durkin

2003-04-07

Hi All,

I agree with Bill Cass on this issue, for the most part

anyway. Not long ago Bill asked me if I remember my first

bike race and I responded that was the 4th of July race when

I was 6 years old around the baseball field. But in all

seriousness, my first big USCF OBRA race was a Masters Cat 4

Banana Belt Series event promoted by Jeff Hayes. The field

was big, mostly 40ish guys with no or little experience who

mostly stayed out of each others way and were happy to

finish with skin intact, we all thought Greg Lemond had

better look out for the new compitition. Only after many

events and some succes did I dare ask Candi for an upgrade

to Cat 3 and from the interesting feedback I got in those

fields, I was still really dumb and a menace to the other

masters riders. Anyway, in the interests of growing this

sport and of safety for all concerned, I suggest a Masters

Cat 4 field, whenever possible run and scored separately

from the 1,2,3 Masters field. The age grading deal is an

issue and the fast highly trained guys will win at any

level. Keeping the new and inexperienced out of the fray

may get more involvement and more newer riders.

My 2 cents.

Tom

----- Original Message -----

From: "Cass, Bill" <Bill.-@nike.com>

To: <ob-@topica.com>; <mike.m-@obra.org>

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:36 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

I have stayed off this subject for a while but I feel the

need to chime in.

In all honesty, I think this rule effects me just as much

or more than the

guy who is getting dropped because he hasn't discovered

bicycle racing until

their grey haired years. I am a category 2 with 20 years

of riding under my

belt. I am over 35, have two kids, an understanding wife,

a real job, family

and community commitments. I ride my bike when I can and

hope I ride hard

enough to make a difference. Does this mean that I can

compete with a 23

year old who logs 300 plus miles a week and is committed

to his bike. In a

word, NO. I do not plan on doing the type of training that

is needed to be

competitive at that level. Last year I managed to squeak

out 150 miles a

week. Most of this coming from a solid teamride on

Saturday and PIR. This

type of training does not make you a competitive senior

two. What are you

planning to do with masters who win races? Upgrade them to

senior 2's. Seems

like a broken logic there. There is a reason there are age

grades. You are

older, you have other commitments in your life and you

want to enjoy being

competitive. In this sport like any other sport, the

strongest, fastest and

smartest competitor usually has an advantage. If you can't

stay with the

group, train more. If you get beaten at the end, learn how

to race. If you

don't know how to ride in a paceline or echelon in the

wind, join a team

that does and learn how.

Unless you are truly gifted, this is a sport where you are

going to take it

on the chin for a while. I did my duty when I was 14 and

stuck with racing

without finishing with a field for over a year. I improved

every time I

raced and finally got to the finish line with the field.

Riding with

national champions and 18 year olds That in itself was as

much as a victory

for me as winning the race. It took me another two years

to actually win

one. Seriously, this is a really HARD sport, with everyone

training and

racing Hard. Swing your leg over your toptube and join the

fray and take

what comes or don't show up. Someone who has trained and

raced hard enough

to win should not be held back by those who complain all

the way to the

line. If you are in front of me at the end of a bike race

it is because you

did something better than I did. I respect that. That is

Sport.

Bill Cass

designer

nikefootwear

503-532-0239

----------

From: mike.m-@obra.org

Reply To: mike.m-@obra.org

Sent: Friday, April 4, 2003 12:26 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

Scott's opinion pretty much reflected the opinion of the

OBRA club

representatives.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein

[mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM

To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to

3/4/5 only sounded

very

reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :

I personally think that Masters racing should be limited

to Cat III max.

HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters

what to do in

their

races. Promoters should be free to run their race

however they see fit.

Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to

limit their masters

fields to Cat III. I think this should remain simply as

an option,

however, and not be a rule.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

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=======

Cass, Bill

2003-04-07

I have stayed off this subject for a while but I feel the need to chime in.

In all honesty, I think this rule effects me just as much or more than the

guy who is getting dropped because he hasn't discovered bicycle racing until

their grey haired years. I am a category 2 with 20 years of riding under my

belt. I am over 35, have two kids, an understanding wife, a real job, family

and community commitments. I ride my bike when I can and hope I ride hard

enough to make a difference. Does this mean that I can compete with a 23

year old who logs 300 plus miles a week and is committed to his bike. In a

word, NO. I do not plan on doing the type of training that is needed to be

competitive at that level. Last year I managed to squeak out 150 miles a

week. Most of this coming from a solid teamride on Saturday and PIR. This

type of training does not make you a competitive senior two. What are you

planning to do with masters who win races? Upgrade them to senior 2's. Seems

like a broken logic there. There is a reason there are age grades. You are

older, you have other commitments in your life and you want to enjoy being

competitive. In this sport like any other sport, the strongest, fastest and

smartest competitor usually has an advantage. If you can't stay with the

group, train more. If you get beaten at the end, learn how to race. If you

don't know how to ride in a paceline or echelon in the wind, join a team

that does and learn how.

Unless you are truly gifted, this is a sport where you are going to take it

on the chin for a while. I did my duty when I was 14 and stuck with racing

without finishing with a field for over a year. I improved every time I

raced and finally got to the finish line with the field. Riding with

national champions and 18 year olds That in itself was as much as a victory

for me as winning the race. It took me another two years to actually win

one. Seriously, this is a really HARD sport, with everyone training and

racing Hard. Swing your leg over your toptube and join the fray and take

what comes or don't show up. Someone who has trained and raced hard enough

to win should not be held back by those who complain all the way to the

line. If you are in front of me at the end of a bike race it is because you

did something better than I did. I respect that. That is Sport.

Bill Cass

designer

nikefootwear

503-532-0239

----------

From: mike.m-@obra.org

Reply To: mike.m-@obra.org

Sent: Friday, April 4, 2003 12:26 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

Scott's opinion pretty much reflected the opinion of the OBRA club

representatives.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM

To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5 only sounded

very

reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :

I personally think that Masters racing should be limited to Cat III max.

HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters what to do in

their

races. Promoters should be free to run their race however they see fit.

Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to limit their masters

fields to Cat III. I think this should remain simply as an option,

however, and not be a rule.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Pat Sagers

2003-04-05

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How about those that are well past 50 that are II's but can't train for

the distances of the II's. I doubt they would want to go "backwards" to

other levels of pack skills.

Ron

I don't think I quite understand what you're saying here. If you're well

past 50 and can't train enough to race with Cat 2's, how can you be

accommodated other than Masters categories? I'm hoping that as the baby

boomer generation ages, a 50+ category might become viable. I being a

beginner and a master, find it hard to have fun, not to mention compete, in

35+ class with no category splits. The best I have to hope for is a

regrouping of dropped riders. Someone posted that they felt Masters should

not get prize money. I totally agree because as someone else said, for the

Masters, this is just a hobby. Let the money go to the (semi)- pro class

groups. My reward is just being fit enough to ride the distance with a few

other riders. If I win a race as a master, what does that really say? "One

day I was faster(maybe); smarter(unlikely); luckier(probably) than a few

other old men." I was not at last week's race where the Masters' category

was characterized as a mob of rude obnoxious juveniles. Let's let the

inevitable result of age have a positive affect on our attitude at races. I

think we can be competitive without being self-centered, fast without being

dangerous and be ramped up without being rude and pushy. I'm not quite there

yet, but as my testosterone production slows, I hope to be soon.

Pat

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>How about those that are well past 50 that are II's but can't train for

 >the distances of the II's. I doubt they would want to go "backwards" to

 >other levels of pack skills.



>Ron



I don't think I quite understand what you're saying here. If you're well past 50 and can't train enough to race with Cat 2's, how can you be accommodated other than Masters categories? I'm hoping that as the baby boomer generation ages, a 50+ category might become viable. I being a beginner and a master, find it hard to have fun, not to mention compete, in 35+ class with no category splits. The best I have to hope for is a regrouping of dropped riders. Someone posted that they felt Masters should not get prize money. I totally agree because as someone else said, for the Masters, this is just a hobby. Let the money go to the (semi)- pro class groups. My reward is just being fit enough to ride the distance with a few other riders. If I win a race as a master, what does that really say? "One day I was faster(maybe); smarter(unlikely); luckier(probably) than a few other old men." I was not at last week's race where the Masters' category was characterized as a mob of rude obnoxious juveniles. Let's let the inevitable result of age have a positive affect on our attitude at races. I think we can be competitive without being self-centered, fast without being dangerous and be ramped up without being rude and pushy. I'm not quite there yet, but as my testosterone production slows, I hope to be soon.

Pat



 

 

 

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mike.m-@obra.org

2003-04-04

Scott's opinion pretty much reflected the opinion of the OBRA club

representatives.

Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM

To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5 only sounded

very

reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :

I personally think that Masters racing should be limited to Cat III max.

HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters what to do in

their

races. Promoters should be free to run their race however they see fit.

Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to limit their masters

fields to Cat III. I think this should remain simply as an option,

however, and not be a rule.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

Brad Cockman, DC

2003-04-04

Aw crap, just about the time I'm starting to think I'm old I'm young

again...

Pirated from the roadbikerider.com site:

We've been riding for three decades, but we still learn new

things when we get together with other roadies.

The best tip from camp? Preparation H ointment. No, not for

those H things, but for budding saddle sores.

Preparation H shrinks swollen tissue and dulls pain --

exactly what you need to thwart a suspicious spot. Apply

a dab five minutes before putting on your shorts, then use

more after your post-ride shower and at bedtime. The

ointment works better for this than the cream.

We tried it, and saddle sores never blossomed at camp

despite the high mileage on rough roads.

mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

Mark Jenkins [mailto:mjen-@marylhurst.edu] wrote:

" I'm not sure why 30-35 year old riders should be considered Masters in

any case, and given the improvements in training and

maintenance methods over the past 20 years, that might reasonably be

extended to 39. I mean, Lance Armstrong is 30, and millions of other

professional athletes at the peak of their careers are between 30 and 40

--

doesn't that in itself go to Mike's point about the potential

seriousness

of 'old guy' racing?

Mike's argument makes sense because it keeps Master's racing from

looking

like the Senior Golf Tour, where the youngest end of the eligibility

spectrum tend to come in and dominate."

Currently Masters can be defined as an age group from 30+ up. This

keeps OBRA in concordance with UCI, USCF, USAC, etc. Prior to the last

OBRA annual meeting the default age for Masters was 30+, i.e. if the

race organizer did not specify an age range then it was 30+. Although

my proposal to limit participation to Cat. 3/4/5 only failed, the

portion of the proposal that made the default age 40+ passed. This

makes little difference though since most organizers are specific enough

about age range.

Given that the median age for an OBRA member is 34 and that the median

age for a Cat2 or better rider is 32 I would STRONGLY suggest that

Master be defined as 40+ if there is to be only one Masters field.

Mike Murray

mike.m-@obra.org

2003-04-04

Mark Jenkins [mailto:mjen-@marylhurst.edu] wrote:

" I'm not sure why 30-35 year old riders should be considered Masters in

any case, and given the improvements in training and

maintenance methods over the past 20 years, that might reasonably be

extended to 39. I mean, Lance Armstrong is 30, and millions of other

professional athletes at the peak of their careers are between 30 and 40

--

doesn't that in itself go to Mike's point about the potential

seriousness

of 'old guy' racing?

Mike's argument makes sense because it keeps Master's racing from

looking

like the Senior Golf Tour, where the youngest end of the eligibility

spectrum tend to come in and dominate."

Currently Masters can be defined as an age group from 30+ up. This

keeps OBRA in concordance with UCI, USCF, USAC, etc. Prior to the last

OBRA annual meeting the default age for Masters was 30+, i.e. if the

race organizer did not specify an age range then it was 30+. Although

my proposal to limit participation to Cat. 3/4/5 only failed, the

portion of the proposal that made the default age 40+ passed. This

makes little difference though since most organizers are specific enough

about age range.

Given that the median age for an OBRA member is 34 and that the median

age for a Cat2 or better rider is 32 I would STRONGLY suggest that

Master be defined as 40+ if there is to be only one Masters field.

Mike Murray

mike.m-@obra.org

2003-04-04

MJas-@aol.com [mailto:MJas-@aol.com] wrote:

"Being new to road racing, and also teetering on the edge of being a

Master, I have assumed that a beginner is a beginner is a beginner. Why

have 2 fields for people to learn what road racing is all about?"

Because there are too many newbies. Currently there are about 600 Cat.

5 and 650 Cat. 4 riders. This does not count anyone who signs up on a

single event membership or who comes in brand new. This means that if

there was only a single Cat. 4/5 field without some of them racing

Masters instead the filed size would be expected to be over 100.

Mike Murray

Pat Sagers

2003-04-03

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Masters 30-45 A,B & beginners and Masters 45+ A,B and

beginners would be

okay if it could be supported with appropriate field sizes.

On a related note, I'm not sure why 30-35 year old riders should be

considered Masters in any case, and given the improvements in

training and

maintenance methods over the past 20 years, that might reasonably be

extended to 39. I mean, Lance Armstrong is 30, and millions of other

professional athletes at the peak of their careers are

between 30 and 40 --

doesn't that in itself go to Mike's point about the potential

seriousness

of 'old guy' racing?

I agree with your ideas. Being 49 myself, it seems that 35 is fairly young

to be considered a Master. Maybe a way to keep the fields larger you could

do the normal Cat. 1,2,3 and 3,4,5 plus 2 Masters that start at 40. So you

could do a Masters 40+ 1,2,3 and Masters 40+ 3,4,5.

Just a thought.

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> >Masters 30-45 A,B & beginners and Masters 45+ A,B and 

 > beginners would be

 > okay if it could be supported with appropriate field sizes.

 > 

 > On a related note, I'm not sure why 30-35 year old riders should be

 > considered Masters in any case, and given the improvements in 

 > training and

 > maintenance methods over the past 20 years, that might reasonably be

 > extended to 39. I mean, Lance Armstrong is 30, and millions of other

 > professional athletes at the peak of their careers are 

 > between 30 and 40 --

 > doesn't that in itself go to Mike's point about the potential 

 > seriousness

 > of 'old guy' racing?



I agree with your ideas. Being 49 myself, it seems that 35 is fairly young to be considered a Master. Maybe a way to keep the fields larger you could do the normal Cat. 1,2,3 and 3,4,5 plus 2 Masters that start at 40. So you could do a Masters 40+ 1,2,3 and Masters 40+ 3,4,5. 

Just a thought. 



 

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MJas-@aol.com

2003-04-03

Being new to road racing, and also teetering on the edge of being a Master, I have assumed that a beginner is a beginner is a beginner. Why have 2 fields for people to learn what road racing is all about? After you have the skills and are no longer a newbie, then you can choose to race by cat or age. Am I looking at this wrong? Of course the promoters are always welcome to have has many fields as they want.

Jason

Mark Jenkins

2003-04-03

I agree -- that sounds like a good idea. But I bet it probably doesn't gel

with the "interoperability" preferences between governing organizations,

many of whom take 'old guy' racing extremely seriously. It does seem like

Masters 30-45 A,B & beginners and Masters 45+ A,B and beginners would be

okay if it could be supported with appropriate field sizes.

On a related note, I'm not sure why 30-35 year old riders should be

considered Masters in any case, and given the improvements in training and

maintenance methods over the past 20 years, that might reasonably be

extended to 39. I mean, Lance Armstrong is 30, and millions of other

professional athletes at the peak of their careers are between 30 and 40 --

doesn't that in itself go to Mike's point about the potential seriousness

of 'old guy' racing?

Mike's argument makes sense because it keeps Master's racing from looking

like the Senior Golf Tour, where the youngest end of the eligibility

spectrum tend to come in and dominate.

-----Original Message-----

From: MARTEL,MATT (HP-Corvallis,ex1) [mailto:matt_m-@hp.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 8:48 AM

To: 'mike.m-@obra.org'; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5 only sounded very

reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:18 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

martin cohen [mailto:mc-@gorge.net] asks:

"Are there any requirements to enter a masters race, other than age? Is

there a rule that states how many mass start races you should have under

your belt before you can enter a master's race?"

Not unless the Masters race is also limited to specific Categories. It

is certainly possible to have a Cat. 1/2 Masters 35+ race, or a Cat 5

Masters 45+, or any other set of selectors including "Guys born on

Thursday".

Most Masters races are open to any person in the stated age range

regardless of Category or ability.

At this year's OBRA annual meeting I proposed that Masters racing be

limited to Cat. 3/4/5 only. Past experience with events that have done

this has shown that the presence of Cat. 1/2 riders in the Masters

fields not only discourages participation in the Masters race but also

diminishes the Cat. 1/2 field, which often is fairly marginal in terms

of participation.

One of the problems is that people have gotten way too serious about old

guy racing. This threatens to spoil the whole reason to have old guy

racing. If you want to be "serious" then race in the ability selected

groups.

Mike Murray

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Scott Goldstein

2003-04-03

At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5 only sounded very

reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :

I personally think that Masters racing should be limited to Cat III max.

HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters what to do in their

races. Promoters should be free to run their race however they see fit.

Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to limit their masters

fields to Cat III. I think this should remain simply as an option,

however, and not be a rule.

Scott

*******************************************

USC: 44 - Notre Dame: 13 Fight On!!

*******************************************

MARTEL,MATT (HP-Corvallis,ex1)

2003-04-03

Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5 only sounded very

reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

-----Original Message-----

From: mike.m-@obra.org [mailto:mike.m-@obra.org]

Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 7:18 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters

martin cohen [mailto:mc-@gorge.net] asks:

"Are there any requirements to enter a masters race, other than age? Is

there a rule that states how many mass start races you should have under

your belt before you can enter a master's race?"

Not unless the Masters race is also limited to specific Categories. It

is certainly possible to have a Cat. 1/2 Masters 35+ race, or a Cat 5

Masters 45+, or any other set of selectors including "Guys born on

Thursday".

Most Masters races are open to any person in the stated age range

regardless of Category or ability.

At this year's OBRA annual meeting I proposed that Masters racing be

limited to Cat. 3/4/5 only. Past experience with events that have done

this has shown that the presence of Cat. 1/2 riders in the Masters

fields not only discourages participation in the Masters race but also

diminishes the Cat. 1/2 field, which often is fairly marginal in terms

of participation.

One of the problems is that people have gotten way too serious about old

guy racing. This threatens to spoil the whole reason to have old guy

racing. If you want to be "serious" then race in the ability selected

groups.

Mike Murray

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Ron Magnus

2003-04-02

Take a look at the flyer for the Boat Street Crit. If I recall, it is

Masters 35+ Cat 1/2/3.....only.

Ron Magnus

On Wed, 2 Apr 2003 mike.m-@obra.org wrote:

martin cohen [mailto:mc-@gorge.net] asks:

"Are there any requirements to enter a masters race, other than age? Is

there a rule that states how many mass start races you should have under

your belt before you can enter a master's race?"

Not unless the Masters race is also limited to specific Categories. It

is certainly possible to have a Cat. 1/2 Masters 35+ race, or a Cat 5

Masters 45+, or any other set of selectors including "Guys born on

Thursday".

Most Masters races are open to any person in the stated age range

regardless of Category or ability.

At this year's OBRA annual meeting I proposed that Masters racing be

limited to Cat. 3/4/5 only. Past experience with events that have done

this has shown that the presence of Cat. 1/2 riders in the Masters

fields not only discourages participation in the Masters race but also

diminishes the Cat. 1/2 field, which often is fairly marginal in terms

of participation.

One of the problems is that people have gotten way too serious about old

guy racing. This threatens to spoil the whole reason to have old guy

racing. If you want to be "serious" then race in the ability selected

groups.

Mike Murray

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mike.m-@obra.org

2003-04-02

martin cohen [mailto:mc-@gorge.net] asks:

"Are there any requirements to enter a masters race, other than age? Is

there a rule that states how many mass start races you should have under

your belt before you can enter a master's race?"

Not unless the Masters race is also limited to specific Categories. It

is certainly possible to have a Cat. 1/2 Masters 35+ race, or a Cat 5

Masters 45+, or any other set of selectors including "Guys born on

Thursday".

Most Masters races are open to any person in the stated age range

regardless of Category or ability.

At this year's OBRA annual meeting I proposed that Masters racing be

limited to Cat. 3/4/5 only. Past experience with events that have done

this has shown that the presence of Cat. 1/2 riders in the Masters

fields not only discourages participation in the Masters race but also

diminishes the Cat. 1/2 field, which often is fairly marginal in terms

of participation.

One of the problems is that people have gotten way too serious about old

guy racing. This threatens to spoil the whole reason to have old guy

racing. If you want to be "serious" then race in the ability selected

groups.

Mike Murray

martin cohen

2003-04-02

I wanted to ask this back when the pack quality discussion was going

on, but it seems appropriate now. Are there any requirements to

enter a masters race, other than age? Is there a rule that states

how many mass start races you should have under your belt before you

can enter a master's race? Just curious.