Wood, Nicholas C
At the expense of trying NOT to sounds too much like a noob, why doesn't MTB (and I suppose CX) have Cat rules like Road, aka can't move up unless the you earn it? To me that seems to solve both points Ron is touching on below.
N
-----Original Message-----
From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org] On Behalf Of rondot@spiritone.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 11:52 AM
To: kenji@obra.org; anthony.cree@gmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed Changes to XC Categories
The BORG....err USAC probably loves to see this "debate" as OBRA being unorganized and ready for absorption!
They, of course are WRONG!
There have been some very good points made. The two most important in my mind are simple. 1) New racers and racers not at the elite level need some attainable goals to feel engaged. If they feel as if they are being thrown to the lions, they will not continue to race. 2) Elite, Open, whatever you want to call it, needs to have vigorous courses that challenge them and in the end, keep the wannabes in the other cats. Remember. The true cream of the crop racers will make their USAC or UCI dreams come true. They have that focus and desire. It is not all the other racers responsibility to make that happen for them. We can support their dream in various ways, but it would seem they would want to support our more humble dreams. Those of us racing in OBRA know that our local racers who have made it big, for the most part do support all of us regular folk. Of course USAC and UCI do not want to let them race with us and thus inspire in person..................DUH!!!!!!!!
A third, also important issue is what started the whole thread. Categories being shuffled about every few seasons (or ?) and the fact that these OBRA meetings that do this....take place at a time when races are already being promoted or open for registration. It seems these meetings could take place earlier. But I have to assume they were scheduled at this time of year for a good reason. Thing is, nothing stays the same. Maybe earlier would be better. Easy for me to say as those meeting are not in my schedule. I am too preoccupied with "my life" to spend time working on that stuff.
It "is easy" for all of us who have not been involved in the hard work involved with the rules to "provide our insight", be it self serving or not.
I have to respect the people who are stepping up and putting their time into doing this work, appreciate how they do listen to the OBRA community, but in the end I differ to them as they "are doing the work".
I assume any system can be tweaked to make it better. I also am old enough to know that all changes that take place are not always for the better.
This is what we call learning from mistakes. I suggest people who have good ideas become more involved, but be open to compromise.
In the end, the fact that we members "are listened to" by our OBRA representatives shows that we actually have a voice which is heard. That is not saying our system can't be made even better. People need to step up, attend meetings and see if there are ways things can be improved. I do not feel individual voice being heard is the case with USAC or UCI. Here in OBRA we have that FREEDOM. Keep it alive people.
I know everyone will not be happy, but I hope most will.
ron strasser
-----Original Message-----
From: T. Kenji Sugahara
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 11:07 AM
To: anthony.cree@gmail.com
Cc: obra@list.obra.org
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed Changes to XC Categories
They do have some good points- and I've already been in touch with them about it.
Team only voting- in our foundational documents- and there's plenty of MTB team represented.
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Anthony Cree
wrote:
> Regardless of what's decided, the echo red 2 red promoter makes a very
> good point about OBRA categories changing after sign up has already
> started.
> http://www.echored2red.com/2012_Echo_Red_2_Red_XC_MTB_Race/Letter_To_R
> iders.html
>
> Team only voting for mtb - how very roadie centric.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:58 AM, Mike Ripley
> wrote:
>>
>> The reason is
>>
>> XC places racers on the course all at once, where in CX or ST you
>> could race multiple races in a given day
>>
>> XC has been 25 categories for 10 years and someone tell me who to
>> axe, and ST could have less and I think does by a few but I could be
>> wrong
>>
>>
>> Plus I like giving people opportunity being kind hearted and
>> expanding on established norms
>>
>> On a side note I agree with candi and I am a purist at heart as my
>> most popular event has 6 categories
>>
>> Open Men and Women
>> Masters 40-49 Men and Women
>> Masters 50+ Men
>> Singlespeed
>>
>> One course for multiple hrs
>>
>>
>> Mark this day as Evan Plews as the voice of reason day.....awesome
>> could be an OBRA holiday LOL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> How about this for radical
>>
>> Short course
>> Long Course
>> 10 year age groups starting at 19 no ability level with some Junior
>> break outs
>>
>> And SS and Clydes...wait now we are up to 21 cats.......hmmmmm or
>> really mtb xc is in effect like having 2 or 3 separate races going on
>> all in one
>> 1-4 hr time frame over thousands of acres
>>
>> If this is true then in fact we only have 7 to 9 categories per race
>> or race course which would make us the lowest amount of categories of
>> any discipline
>>
>> Pretty amazing
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 9:40 AM, Candi Murray wrote:
>>>
>>> Evan
>>>
>>> Finally the voice of reason. There are way too many categories and
>>> it seems like more get added all the time. Our initial request was
>>> to change things to Open and Beginner, and then break down ages for
>>> juniors and masters. How it morphed into 25+ categories is beyond
>>> me.
>>>
>>> Candi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: obra-bounces@list.obra.org [mailto:obra-bounces@list.obra.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Evan Plews
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 9:16 AM
>>> To: Erik Long; useyourdagger@gmail.com; kenji@obra.org
>>> Cc: Obra; rkntoy@yahoo.com; ripleymike1@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed Changes to XC Categories
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks Erik,
>>>
>>> I almost ten years "pro" and so tired of that designation it makes
>>> me sick. Occupation may be a reasonable designation but surely not
>>> profession..
>>>
>>> "Open" would be more appropriate for a racing category then anyone
>>> who wants a piece of the purse can test their metal.
>>>
>>> IMHO there are too many categories. I think there should be beginner
>>> (real first timers or close), open, singlespeed, and everyone else
>>> as age groupers. Getting rid of these subjective "performance/skill"
>>> categories would go along way to making races more fun fair and less
>>> intimidating for those new to the sport.
>>>
>>>
>>> Evan Plews
>>> www.evanplews.com
>>> 503-949-4879
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>
>>> From: Erik Long
>>> Sent: 22 Jan 2013 03:06:06 GMT
>>> To: useyourdagger@gmail.com,kenji@obra.org
>>> Cc: Obra,rkntoy@yahoo.com,ripleymike1@gmail.com
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed Changes to XC Categories
>>>
>>> First of all, "Pro" is a bit of a misnomer. Sure, a few with the
>>> Pro designation are getting paid, but it pushes a false image of
>>> wealth within the sport that just doesn't exist among the fastest
>>> riders. Most in the "Pro" category aren't professionals. If you
>>> file taxes as a physical therapist or a lawyer or something, you are
>>> not a pro cyclist. This may be one reason that USAC refuses to
>>> recognize many OBRA "Pro's".
>>>
>>> "Open" is a category used in many sports. It's a way of saying
>>> "Welcome All Challengers", regardless of age or perceived ability.
>>> We should have this division in 'Cross and our mountainbike events
>>> as well.
>>>
>>> In fact, much of the time it would make sense to make certain age
>>> groups more Open. For example, Cat 1 19+ instead of 19-39, since
>>> there are riders in their mid 40's who are competitive with the
>>> 20-somethings.
>>>
>>> I can understand age limits to a point, but most of our race
>>> divisions really don't need maximum ages.
>>>
>>> -Erik
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:13:12 -0800
>>> From: useyourdagger@gmail.com
>>> To: kenji@obra.org
>>> CC: obra@list.obra.org; rkntoy@yahoo.com; ripleymike1@gmail.com
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Proposed Changes to XC Categories
>>>
>>> I'm having a hard time understanding how a change from numbers to
>>> letters changes anything in regard to making it "easier to
>>> understand."
>>> "Proposal
>>>
>>> Pro/Cat 1= Open/A
>>> Cat 2 = B
>>> Cat 3 = C
>>> Beginner is Beginner"
>>> Where is the part about making it easier to understand for new racers?
>>> This seems more like an attempt to make it very clear that we don't
>>> want to look anything like USAC, but to look more like OBRA 'cross
>>> categories.
>>> That's fine if that's what you're after, but that's not the reason
>>> given for this proposed change.
>>>
>>> I'm also not sure about the Pro upgrade requirement; if I'm reading
>>> it right, basically Mike R. is saying that you can't get upgraded to
>>> Pro if you race OBRA, you have to go find enough USAC Cat 1 races to
>>> get upgraded:
>>>
>>> "Please remember that I have upgraded a number of riders to Pro's
>>> from Cat 1 and I will not be doing that any longer because USAC
>>> does not recognize any of our races or riders racing in the pro
>>> category and currently we do not have a reciprocity agreement with
>>> USAC. If you want to get a Pro Upgrade you will need to race USAC
>>> against the Cat 1 field and earn your upgrade that way. In effect
>>> the top class in OBRA will be if approved an Open category scored
>>> separate for the series and A and A 40+ if approved for men and
>>> women to replace Cat 1 19-39 and Cat 1 40+."
>>> These proposed changes could be good, it's just hard to tell without
>>> more information about what they're meant to accomplish.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:53 PM, T. Kenji Sugahara
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> As an aside- the more feedback we get the better. It's really good
>>> to have this discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Mike Ripley
>>>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Hey Steve
>>> >
>>> > In a way you are right and that is why the change is really not
>>> > that huge check out the latest at
>>> > http://oregonxcseries.org/series-categories/
>>> >
>>> > The main point is describing mountain bike racing in road terms is
>>> > not a good way to get new riders into the sport by offering Cat 3
>>> > In fact if we wanted to be real simple we could just add beginner
>>> > and Open at the top and call it good
>>> >
>>> > Also by having Open, A, B, C, Beginner we will in fact have the C
>>> > and B group racing on the same course and break down the perceived
>>> > self imposed limits riders place on themselves when racing or
>>> > considering upgrading.
>>> > SO
>>> > many C riders in CX and if 10-20% buy Mountain bikes to branch out
>>> > it can only = a good thing
>>> >
>>> > We have a strong contingent of riders already and by changing will
>>> > hope to have the dirt of MTB and CX collide in more riders and
>>> > continued success.
>>> >
>>> > In hindsight we( OBRA) should have never went with USAC with the
>>> > move away from Pro, Expert, Sport and beginner some 5 years ago
>>> > and even these terms would not allow for 2 groups based on ability
>>> > racing on a similar course, which Kris Schamp and Myself think
>>> > would be great for the sport
>>> >
>>> > Mike
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 10:11 PM, T. Kenji Sugahara
>>> >
>>> > wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I'll defer to Mike on this one.
>>> >>
>>> >> Remember that the clubs have the final say on this at the annual
>>> >> meeting!
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 7:35 PM, Steve Westberg
>>> >>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> > Could someone give me a pro/con list for the proposed category
>>> >> > changes?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > After reading through all the explanations I could find it
>>> >> > still feels like a change just to change. 1,2,3 or A,B,C you
>>> >> > are still going to have to explain to new riders what the
>>> >> > system is. And with a change you will have to explain to
>>> >> > people who have been riding OBRA races what the change is.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Am I missing something?
>>> >> > _______________________________________________
>>> >> > OBRA mailing list
>>> >> > obra@list.obra.org
>>> >> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> >> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Kenji Sugahara
>>> >> Executive Director
>>> >> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
>>> >> Phone: 503-278-5550
>>> >> http://www.obra.org
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Mike Ripley
>>> > Mudslinger Events
>>> > Oregon Outdoor Recreation
>>> >
>>> > PO BOX 87
>>> > Monroe, OR. 97456
>>> > 541-225-7946
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kenji Sugahara
>>> Executive Director
>>> Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
>>> Phone: 503-278-5550
>>> http://www.obra.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________ OBRA mailing list
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>>> Unsubscribe:
>>> obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mike Ripley
>> Mudslinger Events
>> Oregon Outdoor Recreation
>>
>> PO BOX 87
>> Monroe, OR. 97456
>> 541-225-7946
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
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--
Kenji Sugahara
Executive Director
Oregon Bicycle Racing Association
Phone: 503-278-5550
http://www.obra.org
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