RE: this NEEDS discussin' ladies

Candi Murray/Oregon Bicycle Racing Assn

2003-04-09

Yeah you are probably right,

Candi







-----Original Message-----

From: Brad Cockman, DC [mailto:bra-@cognisurf.com]

Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 1:11 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] this NEEDS discussin' ladies





With all due respect: This is an open forum to discuss issues relevant

to bicycle racing in Oregon, in this particular case, MEN's 35+ racing.

It is a concern to me, and for the most part, the majority of the people

reading this list serve. It IS an issue and should not be dropped

because a few people are getting too many e-mails due to the fact that

they don't know how to set their preferences in Topica. If you're tired

of all the "irrelevant" e-mails clogging your inbox, go to the Topica

website, click on My Topica, under Delivery Method use the drop down

dialog box to choose "message digests" or "web only-no e-mail".



I will be looking over my shoulder to make sure there are no Mini

Cooper's bearing down on me.



Brad "Hackled" Cockman





Cheryl J. Willson wrote:

 Not to get anyone's hackles up - but didn't Candi (the moderator of the

list among other things) ask for the group to drop this topic from the

list?



(You can email other masters/debaters directly if you want to continue

discussion.)





   Monday, April 7, 2003, at 01:47 PM, Pat Sagers wrote:



 This whole issue seems to revolve around the myriad of needs riders

have at different stages of their life.? It seems like two threads are

coming out of this discussion.? One is the arguement about the number

of categories and where the age and skill divisions should be to best

accomidate the race promoters and participants.? The second is harder

to address because it deals with skill\age\"current fitness" status.?

OBRA has a bunch of folks that are aging category 2 riders that simply

don't have the time to compete with their peers, but don't want to

ride in a 4/5 category.



So do we come up with a Masters Cat 1,2 - Not so fit - got a life -?

currently less than 300 miles per week - AND Don't want to ride with a

bunch of ROOKIES?



IMHO, I think older riders that have slowed have an opportunity to

become mentors and coaches of those around them that don't have a

couple hundred races under their belts.



Pat

 -----Original Message-----

From: Donovan Douglas [mailto:dmando-@att.net]

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 12:20 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] 35+ should be qualification





The USCF acknowleges category 1/2/3 in all master 35+ events,

save for

the 4/5 masters which should be separated from the more

experienced 1-3

cats. Even our National Championships require a rider be 1-3

to compete.

Why should a rider that fits the age qualification not be allowed to

race the master 35+ just because he is cat 1 or 2?



Donovan

Cass, Bill wrote:

 I have stayed off this subject for a while but I feel the

need to chime

 in.

In all honesty, I think this rule effects me just as much

or more than

 the

guy who is getting dropped because he hasn't discovered

bicycle racing

 until

their grey haired years. I am a category 2 with 20 years of

riding under

 my

belt. I am over 35, have two kids, an understanding wife, a

real job,

 family

and community commitments. I ride my bike when I can and

hope I ride

 hard

enough to make a difference. Does this mean that I can

compete with a 23

 year old who logs 300 plus miles a week and is committed to

his bike. In

 a

word, NO. I do not plan on doing the type of training that

is needed to

 be

competitive at that level. Last year I managed to squeak

out 150 miles a

 week. Most of this coming from a solid teamride on Saturday

and PIR.

 This

type of training does not make you a competitive senior

two. What are

 you

planning to do with masters who win races? Upgrade them to

senior 2's.

 Seems

like a broken logic there. There is a reason there are age

grades. You

 are

older, you have other commitments in your life and you want

to enjoy

 being

competitive. In this sport like any other sport, the

strongest, fastest

 and

smartest competitor usually has an advantage. If you can't

stay with the

 group, train more. If you get beaten at the end, learn how

to race. If

 you

don't know how to ride in a paceline or echelon in the

wind, join a team

 that does and learn how.

Unless you are truly gifted, this is a sport where you are

going to take

 it

on the chin for a while. I did my duty when I was 14 and stuck with

racing

without finishing with a field for over a year. I improved

every time I

 raced and finally got to the finish line with the field. Riding

with

  national champions and 18 year olds That in itself was as much as a

victory

for me as winning the race. It took me another two years to

actually win

 one. Seriously, this is a really HARD sport, with everyone

training and

 racing Hard. Swing your leg over your toptube and join the

fray and take

 what comes or don't show up. Someone who has trained and raced hard

enough

to win should not be held back by those who complain all

the way to the

 line. If you are in front of me at the end of a bike race

it is because

 you

did something better than I did. I respect that. That is Sport.



Bill Cass













? designer

nikefootwear

503-532-0239



 ----------

From: ??? mike.m-@obra.org

Reply To: ??????? mike.m-@obra.org

Sent: ??? Friday, April 4, 2003 12:26 AM

To: ????? ob-@topica.com

Subject:? RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters



Scott's opinion pretty much reflected the opinion of the OBRA

club

   representatives.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM

To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters



At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

 Mike,



Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5

only sounded

  very

 reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :



I personally think that Masters racing should be limited

to Cat III max.

  HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters

what to do in

  their

races.? Promoters should be free to run their race

however they see fit.

  



Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to

limit their masters

  fields to Cat III.? I think this should remain simply as

an option,

  however, and not be a rule.



Scott







*******************************************

USC: 44??? -??? Notre Dame: 13???? Fight On!!

*******************************************



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







D Man



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

ONT>





NOTICE:? This communication may contain proprietary or other

confidential business information of Orcom Solutions, Inc.? If you are

not the intended recipient or believe that you may have received this

communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating that

fact and delete the copy you received.? In addition, you should not

print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the

information.? Thank you.?





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Cheryl J. Willson

2003-04-09

Okay, everyone, I apologized to Pat that I happened to reply to his

comment rather than others (especially because he posted before the

request).



But, honestly, I think respecting a request by the moderator of the

list is not an unreasonable thing to do. It's much like respecting an

official. In fact, Candi happens to be the moderator and one of the few

experienced officials we have left.



Anyway, propose a rule change next year, lobby your favorite promoter

to submit to your will....do what you want.



I'm going to ride my bike.





On Wednesday, April 9, 2003, at 01:11 PM, Brad Cockman, DC wrote:



 With all due respect: This is an open forum to discuss issues relevant

to bicycle racing in Oregon, in this particular case, MEN's 35+ racing.

It is a concern to me, and for the most part, the majority of the

people

reading this list serve. It IS an issue and should not be dropped

because a few people are getting too many e-mails due to the fact that

they don't know how to set their preferences in Topica. If you're tired

of all the "irrelevant" e-mails clogging your inbox, go to the Topica

website, click on My Topica, under Delivery Method use the drop down

dialog box to choose "message digests" or "web only-no e-mail".



I will be looking over my shoulder to make sure there are no Mini

Cooper's bearing down on me.



Brad "Hackled" Cockman





Cheryl J. Willson wrote:

 Not to get anyone's hackles up - but didn't Candi (the moderator of

the

list among other things) ask for the group to drop this topic from the

list?



(You can email other masters/debaters directly if you want to continue

discussion.)





   Monday, April 7, 2003, at 01:47 PM, Pat Sagers wrote:



 This whole issue seems to revolve around the myriad of needs riders

have at different stages of their life.? It seems like two threads

are

coming out of this discussion.? One is the arguement about the number

of categories and where the age and skill divisions should be to best

accomidate the race promoters and participants.? The second is harder

to address because it deals with skill\age\"current fitness" status.?

OBRA has a bunch of folks that are aging category 2 riders that

simply

don't have the time to compete with their peers, but don't want to

ride in a 4/5 category.



So do we come up with a Masters Cat 1,2 - Not so fit - got a life -?

currently less than 300 miles per week - AND Don't want to ride with

a

bunch of ROOKIES?



IMHO, I think older riders that have slowed have an opportunity to

become mentors and coaches of those around them that don't have a

couple hundred races under their belts.



Pat

 -----Original Message-----

From: Donovan Douglas [mailto:dmando-@att.net]

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 12:20 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] 35+ should be qualification





The USCF acknowleges category 1/2/3 in all master 35+ events,

save for

the 4/5 masters which should be separated from the more

experienced 1-3

cats. Even our National Championships require a rider be 1-3

to compete.

Why should a rider that fits the age qualification not be allowed to

race the master 35+ just because he is cat 1 or 2?



Donovan

Cass, Bill wrote:

 I have stayed off this subject for a while but I feel the

need to chime

 in.

In all honesty, I think this rule effects me just as much

or more than

 the

guy who is getting dropped because he hasn't discovered

bicycle racing

 until

their grey haired years. I am a category 2 with 20 years of

riding under

 my

belt. I am over 35, have two kids, an understanding wife, a

real job,

 family

and community commitments. I ride my bike when I can and

hope I ride

 hard

enough to make a difference. Does this mean that I can

compete with a 23

 year old who logs 300 plus miles a week and is committed to

his bike. In

 a

word, NO. I do not plan on doing the type of training that

is needed to

 be

competitive at that level. Last year I managed to squeak

out 150 miles a

 week. Most of this coming from a solid teamride on Saturday

and PIR.

 This

type of training does not make you a competitive senior

two. What are

 you

planning to do with masters who win races? Upgrade them to

senior 2's.

 Seems

like a broken logic there. There is a reason there are age

grades. You

 are

older, you have other commitments in your life and you want

to enjoy

 being

competitive. In this sport like any other sport, the

strongest, fastest

 and

smartest competitor usually has an advantage. If you can't

stay with the

 group, train more. If you get beaten at the end, learn how

to race. If

 you

don't know how to ride in a paceline or echelon in the

wind, join a team

 that does and learn how.

Unless you are truly gifted, this is a sport where you are

going to take

 it

on the chin for a while. I did my duty when I was 14 and stuck with

racing

without finishing with a field for over a year. I improved

every time I

 raced and finally got to the finish line with the field. Riding

with

  national champions and 18 year olds That in itself was as much as a

victory

for me as winning the race. It took me another two years to

actually win

 one. Seriously, this is a really HARD sport, with everyone

training and

 racing Hard. Swing your leg over your toptube and join the

fray and take

 what comes or don't show up. Someone who has trained and raced hard

enough

to win should not be held back by those who complain all

the way to the

 line. If you are in front of me at the end of a bike race

it is because

 you

did something better than I did. I respect that. That is Sport.



Bill Cass













? designer

nikefootwear

503-532-0239



 ----------

From: ??? mike.m-@obra.org

Reply To: ??????? mike.m-@obra.org

Sent: ??? Friday, April 4, 2003 12:26 AM

To: ????? ob-@topica.com

Subject:? RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters



Scott's opinion pretty much reflected the opinion of the OBRA

club

   representatives.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM

To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters



At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

>Mike,

Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5

only sounded

  very

>reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :



I personally think that Masters racing should be limited

to Cat III max.

  HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters

what to do in

  their

races.? Promoters should be free to run their race

however they see fit.

  



Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to

limit their masters

  fields to Cat III.? I think this should remain simply as

an option,

  however, and not be a rule.



Scott







*******************************************

USC: 44??? -??? Notre Dame: 13???? Fight On!!

*******************************************



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







D Man



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

ONT>





NOTICE:? This communication may contain proprietary or other

confidential business information of Orcom Solutions, Inc.? If you

are

not the intended recipient or believe that you may have received this

communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating that

fact and delete the copy you received.? In addition, you should not

print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the

information.? Thank you.?





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



Brad Cockman, DC

2003-04-09

With all due respect: This is an open forum to discuss issues relevant

to bicycle racing in Oregon, in this particular case, MEN's 35+ racing.

It is a concern to me, and for the most part, the majority of the people

reading this list serve. It IS an issue and should not be dropped

because a few people are getting too many e-mails due to the fact that

they don't know how to set their preferences in Topica. If you're tired

of all the "irrelevant" e-mails clogging your inbox, go to the Topica

website, click on My Topica, under Delivery Method use the drop down

dialog box to choose "message digests" or "web only-no e-mail".



I will be looking over my shoulder to make sure there are no Mini

Cooper's bearing down on me.



Brad "Hackled" Cockman





Cheryl J. Willson wrote:

 Not to get anyone's hackles up - but didn't Candi (the moderator of the

list among other things) ask for the group to drop this topic from the

list?



(You can email other masters/debaters directly if you want to continue

discussion.)





   Monday, April 7, 2003, at 01:47 PM, Pat Sagers wrote:



 This whole issue seems to revolve around the myriad of needs riders

have at different stages of their life.? It seems like two threads are

coming out of this discussion.? One is the arguement about the number

of categories and where the age and skill divisions should be to best

accomidate the race promoters and participants.? The second is harder

to address because it deals with skill\age\"current fitness" status.?

OBRA has a bunch of folks that are aging category 2 riders that simply

don't have the time to compete with their peers, but don't want to

ride in a 4/5 category.



So do we come up with a Masters Cat 1,2 - Not so fit - got a life -?

currently less than 300 miles per week - AND Don't want to ride with a

bunch of ROOKIES?



IMHO, I think older riders that have slowed have an opportunity to

become mentors and coaches of those around them that don't have a

couple hundred races under their belts.



Pat

 -----Original Message-----

From: Donovan Douglas [mailto:dmando-@att.net]

Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 12:20 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] 35+ should be qualification





The USCF acknowleges category 1/2/3 in all master 35+ events,

save for

the 4/5 masters which should be separated from the more

experienced 1-3

cats. Even our National Championships require a rider be 1-3

to compete.

Why should a rider that fits the age qualification not be allowed to

race the master 35+ just because he is cat 1 or 2?



Donovan

Cass, Bill wrote:

 I have stayed off this subject for a while but I feel the

need to chime

 in.

In all honesty, I think this rule effects me just as much

or more than

 the

guy who is getting dropped because he hasn't discovered

bicycle racing

 until

their grey haired years. I am a category 2 with 20 years of

riding under

 my

belt. I am over 35, have two kids, an understanding wife, a

real job,

 family

and community commitments. I ride my bike when I can and

hope I ride

 hard

enough to make a difference. Does this mean that I can

compete with a 23

 year old who logs 300 plus miles a week and is committed to

his bike. In

 a

word, NO. I do not plan on doing the type of training that

is needed to

 be

competitive at that level. Last year I managed to squeak

out 150 miles a

 week. Most of this coming from a solid teamride on Saturday

and PIR.

 This

type of training does not make you a competitive senior

two. What are

 you

planning to do with masters who win races? Upgrade them to

senior 2's.

 Seems

like a broken logic there. There is a reason there are age

grades. You

 are

older, you have other commitments in your life and you want

to enjoy

 being

competitive. In this sport like any other sport, the

strongest, fastest

 and

smartest competitor usually has an advantage. If you can't

stay with the

 group, train more. If you get beaten at the end, learn how

to race. If

 you

don't know how to ride in a paceline or echelon in the

wind, join a team

 that does and learn how.

Unless you are truly gifted, this is a sport where you are

going to take

 it

on the chin for a while. I did my duty when I was 14 and stuck with

racing

without finishing with a field for over a year. I improved

every time I

 raced and finally got to the finish line with the field. Riding

with

  national champions and 18 year olds That in itself was as much as a

victory

for me as winning the race. It took me another two years to

actually win

 one. Seriously, this is a really HARD sport, with everyone

training and

 racing Hard. Swing your leg over your toptube and join the

fray and take

 what comes or don't show up. Someone who has trained and raced hard

enough

to win should not be held back by those who complain all

the way to the

 line. If you are in front of me at the end of a bike race

it is because

 you

did something better than I did. I respect that. That is Sport.



Bill Cass













? designer

nikefootwear

503-532-0239



 ----------

From: ??? mike.m-@obra.org

Reply To: ??????? mike.m-@obra.org

Sent: ??? Friday, April 4, 2003 12:26 AM

To: ????? ob-@topica.com

Subject:? RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters



Scott's opinion pretty much reflected the opinion of the OBRA

club

   representatives.



Mike Murray



-----Original Message-----

From: Scott Goldstein [mailto:sgold-@mail.bit-by-bit.com]

Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2003 10:25 AM

To: matt_m-@hp.com; ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] Criteria to race in Masters



At 08:47 AM 04/03/2003 -0800, you wrote:

 Mike,



Your proposal for master's racing being limited to 3/4/5

only sounded

  very

 reasonable. Why didn't it fly?

**************************************

Hello Matt, et. al. :



I personally think that Masters racing should be limited

to Cat III max.

  HOWEVER, I don't think that OBRA should tell promoters

what to do in

  their

races.? Promoters should be free to run their race

however they see fit.

  



Many race promoters (myself included) have chosen to

limit their masters

  fields to Cat III.? I think this should remain simply as

an option,

  however, and not be a rule.



Scott







*******************************************

USC: 44??? -??? Notre Dame: 13???? Fight On!!

*******************************************



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com







D Man



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

ONT>





NOTICE:? This communication may contain proprietary or other

confidential business information of Orcom Solutions, Inc.? If you are

not the intended recipient or believe that you may have received this

communication in error, please reply to the sender indicating that

fact and delete the copy you received.? In addition, you should not

print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the

information.? Thank you.?





To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com