Tactics Question - Negative Racing

peter staiger

2013-06-07

I am also tacticsising right now. Though that is code for sitting in the
hot tub drinking scotch and smoking a cigar. Thank you OBRA chat for
tonight's entertainment. :)

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 6, 2013, at 9:37 PM, Matt Savage wrote:

I'm tacticising right now as we speak...! You guys are gonna be so bummed
when you see what I pulled...

Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...

On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:25 PM, Stewart Campbell
wrote:

Can you grab me some while your up?

------------------------------
*From:* Steven Beardsley
*To:* Mike Rosenfeld
*Cc:* Obra
*Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:55 PM
*Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing

Hold on, I need to go get some more popcorn. I'll be back in a sec.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)

I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.

Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been
on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:

Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
right, it's not sporting.

On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
> Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of
course
>
> you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are
not
>
> going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
> wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially
with
>
> a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and
let
>
> me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
> workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
> turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
> the glory ... again.
>
> I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
> always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I
see
>
> it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
> you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
> group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
> the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
> chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
> if needed point them out to the officials.
>
> For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
> break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
> people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted
to
>
> get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
> the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away
from
>
> us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
> up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>
> So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
> works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
> them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>
> While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
> tactics that come with it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mick Walsh"
> To: "Ron Frerichs"
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>>
>> I
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>>
>>> And blocking at PR????
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>>>>
>>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>>>>
>>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>>>> congratulations.
>>>>
>>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>>>> To:
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>>>
>>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>>>> your teammates!
>>>>
>>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>>>> but has it changed that much?
>>>>
>>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>>>>
>>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>>>
>>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>>>>
>>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>>>>
>>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
good
>>>>
>>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>>>>
>>>> the group catch their team mates.
>>>>
>>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>>>> IMHO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it
go
>>>>
>>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other
racers
>>>>
>>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>>>>
>>>> tend to go flying.
>>>>
>>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>>
>>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>>>> efforts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------
>>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>>> Cc: Obra
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
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Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-07

I was enjoying it until I figured out via this thread that apparently I am
a d-bag, use un-sportsman like racing tactics, and am over all a very bad
person. I even had my physical safety threatened if I attempted any of my
un-sportsman like tactics.

And I don't even want to know what Mr. Savage was eluding to.

I just know that I love riding my bike. I love that I can still hang on to
a Cat 3 field with only 50 miles a week of training. And Cross is a few
short months away.

Aint the weather just grand for an early June in Oregon.

Mike

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 9:27 PM, adam holt wrote:

> Good grief. Between the "warfare" of road racing, the beginners getting
> thrown into the bushes in mtb, and the frostbite, hangovers, and inevitable
> creaky bottom brackets of CX, it's a wonder that anyone in OR enjoys racing
> their bike these days.
>
> Adam
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:37 PM, "Matt Savage" wrote:
>
> I'm tacticising right now as we speak...! You guys are gonna be so bummed
> when you see what I pulled...
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:25 PM, Stewart Campbell
> wrote:
>
> Can you grab me some while your up?
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Steven Beardsley
> *To:* Mike Rosenfeld
> *Cc:* Obra
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:55 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
> Hold on, I need to go get some more popcorn. I'll be back in a sec.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>
> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>
> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>
> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been
> on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>
> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
> right, it's not sporting.
>
> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of
> course
> >
> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are
> not
> >
> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially
> with
> >
> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and
> let
> >
> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
> > the glory ... again.
> >
> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there
> is
> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I
> see
> >
> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So
> if
> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them
> and
> > if needed point them out to the officials.
> >
> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of
> the
> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted
> to
> >
> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away
> from
> >
> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can
> mop
> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
> >
> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who
> only
> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
> >
> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
> > tactics that come with it.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mick Walsh"
> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >
> >
> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
> >>
> >> I
> >>
> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
> >>
> >>> And blocking at PR????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his
> side
> >>>>
> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the
> way.
> >>>>
> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
> >>>> congratulations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ron
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
> >>>> To:
> >>>> Cc:
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
> >>>> your teammates!
> >>>>
> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
> >>>> but has it changed that much?
> >>>>
> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race,
> are
> >>>>
> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the
> back
> >>>>
> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
> >>>>
> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
> good
> >>>>
> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest
> of
> >>>>
> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
> >>>> IMHO
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mick
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it
> go
> >>>>
> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other
> racers
> >>>>
> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits
> foam
> >>>>
> >>>> tend to go flying.
> >>>>
> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for
> participation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
> >>>> efforts.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------------
> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> >>>> Cc: Obra
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> OBRA mailing list
> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OBRA mailing list
> >>> obra@list.obra.org
> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


adam holt

2013-06-07

Good grief. Between the "warfare" of road racing, the beginners getting thrown into the bushes in mtb, and the frostbite, hangovers, and inevitable creaky bottom brackets of CX, it's a wonder that anyone in OR enjoys racing their bike these days.

Adam

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:37 PM, "Matt Savage" wrote:

> I'm tacticising right now as we speak...! You guys are gonna be so bummed when you see what I pulled...
>
> Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:25 PM, Stewart Campbell wrote:
>
>> Can you grab me some while your up?
>>
>> From: Steven Beardsley
>> To: Mike Rosenfeld
>> Cc: Obra
>> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>
>> Hold on, I need to go get some more popcorn. I'll be back in a sec.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>>
>> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>>
>> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
>> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
>> right, it's not sporting.
>>
>> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
>> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
>> >
>> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are not
>> >
>> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
>> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
>> >
>> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
>> >
>> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
>> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
>> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
>> > the glory ... again.
>> >
>> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
>> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I see
>> >
>> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
>> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
>> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
>> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
>> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
>> > if needed point them out to the officials.
>> >
>> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
>> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
>> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
>> >
>> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
>> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
>> >
>> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
>> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>> >
>> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
>> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
>> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>> >
>> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
>> > tactics that come with it.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Mick Walsh"
>> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>> >>
>> >> I
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> And blocking at PR????
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>> >>>> congratulations.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ron
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>> >>>> To:
>> >>>> Cc:
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>> >>>> your teammates!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>> >>>> but has it changed that much?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>> >>>>
>> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>> >>>>
>> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>> >>>> IMHO
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mick
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
>> >>>>
>> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>> >>>>
>> >>>> tend to go flying.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>> >>>> efforts.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----------------
>> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> >>>> Cc: Obra
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Matt Savage

2013-06-07

I'm tacticising right now as we speak...! You guys are gonna be so bummed when you see what I pulled...

Sent from Matt Savage's DynaTac 8000X...

On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:25 PM, Stewart Campbell wrote:

> Can you grab me some while your up?
>
> From: Steven Beardsley
> To: Mike Rosenfeld
> Cc: Obra
> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
> Hold on, I need to go get some more popcorn. I'll be back in a sec.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>
> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>
> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
> right, it's not sporting.
>
> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
> >
> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are not
> >
> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
> >
> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
> >
> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
> > the glory ... again.
> >
> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I see
> >
> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
> > if needed point them out to the officials.
> >
> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
> >
> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
> >
> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
> >
> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
> >
> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
> > tactics that come with it.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mick Walsh"
> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >
> >
> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
> >>
> >> I
> >>
> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
> >>
> >>> And blocking at PR????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
> >>>>
> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
> >>>>
> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
> >>>> congratulations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ron
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
> >>>> To:
> >>>> Cc:
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
> >>>> your teammates!
> >>>>
> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
> >>>> but has it changed that much?
> >>>>
> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
> >>>>
> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
> >>>>
> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
> >>>>
> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
> >>>>
> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
> >>>>
> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
> >>>> IMHO
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mick
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
> >>>>
> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
> >>>>
> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
> >>>>
> >>>> tend to go flying.
> >>>>
> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
> >>>> efforts.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------------
> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> >>>> Cc: Obra
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> OBRA mailing list
> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OBRA mailing list
> >>> obra@list.obra.org
> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Stewart Campbell

2013-06-07

Can you grab me some while your up?

________________________________
From: Steven Beardsley
To: Mike Rosenfeld
Cc: Obra
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing

Hold on, I need to go get some more popcorn. I'll be back in a sec.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)

>I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.

>Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time.  Its been on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.


>
>
>
>On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>
>Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
>>d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
>>right, it's not sporting.
>>
>>
>>On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
>>> Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
>>>
>>> you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there.  Most of us are not
>>>
>>> going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
>>> wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
>>>
>>> a large field in a open space.  You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
>>>
>>> me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
>>> workout itself.  Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
>>> turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
>>> the glory ... again.
>>>
>>> I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
>>> always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics.  I see
>>>
>>> it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat.  So if
>>> you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
>>> group and don't let them back in.  Until they unsafely try and break into
>>> the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
>>> chase down the break.  Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
>>> if needed point them out to the officials.
>>>
>>> For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
>>> break will be caught ... again.  I personally find it odd that many of the
>>> people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
>>>
>>> get in the break and are not the best sprinters.  I would think these are
>>> the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
>>>
>>> us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
>>> up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>>>
>>> So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
>>> works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
>>> them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>>>
>>> While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
>>> tactics that come with it.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mick Walsh"
>>> To: "Ron Frerichs"
>>> Cc:
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>
>>>
>>>> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And blocking at PR????
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>>>>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion).  Win because
>>>>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>>>>>> congratulations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>>>>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>>>>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>>>>>> To:
>>>>>> Cc:
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dude!  Really!!!  Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>>>>>> the chase is unsporting behavior?  I am flabbergasted that people
>>>>>> actually think this.  You have to be kidding me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Attack the chase group?  all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>>>>>> your teammates!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>>>>>> but has it changed that much?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>>>>>> bikes.  If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>>>>>>
>>>>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams.  What good
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the group catch their team mates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wow...just wow.  I am now depressed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>>>>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>>>>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>>>>>> IMHO
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mick
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective.  Its just a race.  You let it go
>>>>>>
>>>>>> when you cross the line.  Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tend to go flying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Competition is just a humane war.  Someone has to win.  Its not about
>>>>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport.  And in sports you play to
>>>>>> win.  Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>>>>>> efforts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------
>>>>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>>>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>>>>> Cc: Obra
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>>>>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it's not negative.  Got it.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>OBRA mailing list
>>obra@list.obra.org
>>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Josh LeBus

2013-06-06

There's no gray area for soft peddling at the front when your teammates are off the front in a break. Everyone would say "that's lame". Maybe not d baggy as Johnny put it, but an emphatic lame!! Ha!!

It's like a lineman faking an injury on the field to by time for his exhausted teammates. It's lame!

Thanks to Pat Malach for the awesome post and pic that pretty much makes it black and white.
Brilliant!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 6, 2013, at 1:49 PM, Sarah Tisdale wrote:

> I don't think there a black & white line here (except obviously the OBRA rulebook!), but consider another element:
>
> PIR is a lot different than races on normal roads. At PIR, if someone tries to block for a teammate up the road and doesn't pull through, there's plenty of room to come around them.
>
> On normal roads, there's only room for 3-4 riders across the front. If one team sends a bunch of riders to the front on a narrow road, it feels a lot "wrong-er" to me.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>> It's not about agreement, you just don't get in the way.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>>
>>> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>>>
>>> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>>>
>>> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>>>> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
>>>> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
>>>> right, it's not sporting.
>>>>
>>>> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
>>>> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
>>>> >
>>>> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are not
>>>> >
>>>> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
>>>> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
>>>> >
>>>> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
>>>> >
>>>> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
>>>> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
>>>> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
>>>> > the glory ... again.
>>>> >
>>>> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
>>>> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I see
>>>> >
>>>> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
>>>> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
>>>> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
>>>> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
>>>> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
>>>> > if needed point them out to the officials.
>>>> >
>>>> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
>>>> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
>>>> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
>>>> >
>>>> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
>>>> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
>>>> >
>>>> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
>>>> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>>>> >
>>>> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
>>>> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
>>>> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>>>> >
>>>> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
>>>> > tactics that come with it.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Mick Walsh"
>>>> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
>>>> > Cc:
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> And blocking at PR????
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>>>> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>>>> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>>>> >>>> congratulations.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>>>> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>>>> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Ron
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>>>> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>>>> >>>> To:
>>>> >>>> Cc:
>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>>>> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>>>> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>>>> >>>> your teammates!
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>>>> >>>> but has it changed that much?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>>>> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>> >>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>>>> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>>>> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>>>> >>>> IMHO
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Mick
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>> >>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> tend to go flying.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>>>> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>>>> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>>>> >>>> efforts.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ----------------
>>>> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>>> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>>> >>>> Cc: Obra
>>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>>>> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> >>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>> >> OBRA mailing list
>>>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > OBRA mailing list
>>>> > obra@list.obra.org
>>>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>> >
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Steven Beardsley

2013-06-06

Hold on, I need to go get some more popcorn. I'll be back in a sec.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>
> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>
> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been
> on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>
>> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
>> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
>> right, it's not sporting.
>>
>> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
>> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of
>> course
>> >
>> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us
>> are not
>> >
>> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
>> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially
>> with
>> >
>> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and
>> let
>> >
>> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
>> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is
>> your
>> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can
>> take
>> > the glory ... again.
>> >
>> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there
>> is
>> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I
>> see
>> >
>> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So
>> if
>> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
>> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break
>> into
>> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying
>> to
>> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them
>> and
>> > if needed point them out to the officials.
>> >
>> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and
>> the
>> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of
>> the
>> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who
>> wanted to
>> >
>> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these
>> are
>> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away
>> from
>> >
>> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can
>> mop
>> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>> >
>> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who
>> only
>> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
>> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>> >
>> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
>> > tactics that come with it.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Mick Walsh"
>> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>> >>
>> >> I
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> And blocking at PR????
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs " > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his
>> side
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the
>> way.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win,
>> then
>> >>>> congratulations.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ron
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>> >>>> To:
>> >>>> Cc:
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack
>> to
>> >>>> your teammates!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>> >>>> but has it changed that much?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race,
>> are
>> >>>>
>> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the
>> back
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
>> good
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest
>> of
>> >>>>
>> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their
>> efforts
>> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting
>> behavior
>> >>>> IMHO
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mick
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let
>> it go
>> >>>>
>> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other
>> racers
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits
>> foam
>> >>>>
>> >>>> tend to go flying.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for
>> participation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play
>> to
>> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>> >>>> efforts.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----------------
>> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> >>>> Cc: Obra
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you,
>> I
>> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Sarah Tisdale

2013-06-06

I don't think there a black & white line here (except obviously the OBRA
rulebook!), but consider another element:

PIR is a lot different than races on normal roads. At PIR, if someone
tries to block for a teammate up the road and doesn't pull through, there's
plenty of room to come around them.

On normal roads, there's only room for 3-4 riders across the front. If one
team sends a bunch of riders to the front on a narrow road, it feels a lot
"wrong-er" to me.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Mick Walsh wrote:

> It's not about agreement, you just don't get in the way.
>
>
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>
> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>
> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>
> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been
> on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>
>> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
>> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
>> right, it's not sporting.
>>
>> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
>> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of
>> course
>> >
>> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us
>> are not
>> >
>> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
>> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially
>> with
>> >
>> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and
>> let
>> >
>> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
>> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is
>> your
>> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can
>> take
>> > the glory ... again.
>> >
>> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there
>> is
>> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I
>> see
>> >
>> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So
>> if
>> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
>> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break
>> into
>> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying
>> to
>> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them
>> and
>> > if needed point them out to the officials.
>> >
>> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and
>> the
>> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of
>> the
>> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who
>> wanted to
>> >
>> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these
>> are
>> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away
>> from
>> >
>> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can
>> mop
>> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>> >
>> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who
>> only
>> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
>> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>> >
>> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
>> > tactics that come with it.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Mick Walsh"
>> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>> >>
>> >> I
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> And blocking at PR????
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs " > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his
>> side
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the
>> way.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win,
>> then
>> >>>> congratulations.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ron
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>> >>>> To:
>> >>>> Cc:
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack
>> to
>> >>>> your teammates!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>> >>>> but has it changed that much?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race,
>> are
>> >>>>
>> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the
>> back
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
>> good
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest
>> of
>> >>>>
>> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their
>> efforts
>> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting
>> behavior
>> >>>> IMHO
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mick
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let
>> it go
>> >>>>
>> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other
>> racers
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits
>> foam
>> >>>>
>> >>>> tend to go flying.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for
>> participation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play
>> to
>> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>> >>>> efforts.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----------------
>> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> >>>> Cc: Obra
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you,
>> I
>> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Mick Walsh

2013-06-06

It's not about agreement, you just don't get in the way.

On Jun 6, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

> Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)
>
> I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.
>
> Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:
>> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
>> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
>> right, it's not sporting.
>>
>> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
>> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
>> >
>> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are not
>> >
>> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
>> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
>> >
>> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
>> >
>> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
>> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
>> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
>> > the glory ... again.
>> >
>> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
>> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I see
>> >
>> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
>> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
>> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
>> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
>> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
>> > if needed point them out to the officials.
>> >
>> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
>> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
>> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
>> >
>> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
>> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
>> >
>> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
>> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>> >
>> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
>> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
>> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>> >
>> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
>> > tactics that come with it.
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Mick Walsh"
>> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
>> > Cc:
>> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >
>> >
>> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>> >>
>> >> I
>> >>
>> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> And blocking at PR????
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>> >>>> congratulations.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Ron
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>> >>>> To:
>> >>>> Cc:
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>> >>>> your teammates!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>> >>>> but has it changed that much?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>> >>>>
>> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
>> >>>>
>> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>> >>>>
>> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>> >>>> IMHO
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Mick
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld > >>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
>> >>>>
>> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>> >>>>
>> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>> >>>>
>> >>>> tend to go flying.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>> >>>> efforts.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ----------------
>> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> >>>> Cc: Obra
>> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>
>> >>>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >>>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> OBRA mailing list
>> >>> obra@list.obra.org
>> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> OBRA mailing list
>> >> obra@list.obra.org
>> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > OBRA mailing list
>> > obra@list.obra.org
>> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-06

Sent to the ground..yeah that's not negative :)

I doubt there will be agreement reached....ever.

Haven't been called or implied to be a D-bag in quite some time. Its been
on my list so thanks for helping me check it off.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 12:27 PM, J Bravard wrote:

> Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
> d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
> right, it's not sporting.
>
> On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
> > Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of
> course
> >
> > you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are
> not
> >
> > going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
> > wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially
> with
> >
> > a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and
> let
> >
> > me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
> > workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
> > turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
> > the glory ... again.
> >
> > I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there
> is
> > always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I
> see
> >
> > it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So
> if
> > you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
> > group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
> > the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
> > chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them
> and
> > if needed point them out to the officials.
> >
> > For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
> > break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of
> the
> > people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted
> to
> >
> > get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
> > the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away
> from
> >
> > us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can
> mop
> > up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
> >
> > So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who
> only
> > works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
> > them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
> >
> > While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
> > tactics that come with it.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mick Walsh"
> > To: "Ron Frerichs"
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >
> >
> >> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
> >>
> >> I
> >>
> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
> >>
> >>> And blocking at PR????
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his
> side
> >>>>
> >>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
> >>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
> >>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the
> way.
> >>>>
> >>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
> >>>> congratulations.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
> >>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
> >>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ron
> >>>>
> >>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
> >>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
> >>>> To:
> >>>> Cc:
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
> >>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
> >>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
> >>>>
> >>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
> >>>> your teammates!
> >>>>
> >>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
> >>>> but has it changed that much?
> >>>>
> >>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
> >>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race,
> are
> >>>>
> >>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the
> back
> >>>>
> >>>> and a green participation ribbon?
> >>>>
> >>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
> good
> >>>>
> >>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest
> of
> >>>>
> >>>> the group catch their team mates.
> >>>>
> >>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
> >>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
> >>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
> >>>> IMHO
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mick
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>>> > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it
> go
> >>>>
> >>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other
> racers
> >>>>
> >>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits
> foam
> >>>>
> >>>> tend to go flying.
> >>>>
> >>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
> >>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for
> participation.
> >>>>
> >>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
> >>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
> >>>> efforts.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----------------
> >>>> From: Erik Voldengen
> >>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> >>>> Cc: Obra
> >>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
> >>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>> OBRA mailing list
> >>>> obra@list.obra.org
> >>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> OBRA mailing list
> >>> obra@list.obra.org
> >>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> >
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


J Bravard

2013-06-06

Sorry, Rosenfeld, blocking like you're talking about is the kind of
d-baggery that would get you sent to the ground in some races. Mick is
right, it's not sporting.

On 6/6/13, Jamie Mikami wrote:
> Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
>
> you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are not
>
> going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
> wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
>
> a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
>
> me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
> workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
> turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
> the glory ... again.
>
> I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
> always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I see
>
> it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
> you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
> group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
> the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
> chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
> if needed point them out to the officials.
>
> For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
> break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
> people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
>
> get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
> the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
>
> us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
> up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.
>
> So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
> works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
> them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!
>
> While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
> tactics that come with it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mick Walsh"
> To: "Ron Frerichs"
> Cc:
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>>
>> I
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>>
>>> And blocking at PR????
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>>>>
>>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>>>>
>>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>>>> congratulations.
>>>>
>>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>>>>
>>>> Ron
>>>>
>>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>>>> To:
>>>> Cc:
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>>>
>>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>>>> your teammates!
>>>>
>>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>>>> but has it changed that much?
>>>>
>>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>>>>
>>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>>>
>>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>>>>
>>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>>>>
>>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
>>>>
>>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>>>>
>>>> the group catch their team mates.
>>>>
>>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>>>> IMHO
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
>>>>
>>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>>>>
>>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>>>>
>>>> tend to go flying.
>>>>
>>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>>
>>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>>>> efforts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------
>>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>>> Cc: Obra
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


lori Brault

2013-06-06

I have some lovely first hand experience in the women's fields with
verbal harassment, screaming obscenities & dangerous riding....
Mind you I have come to realize desperate people/riders do some
desperately idiotic things. BEST race strategy is to get strong
enough to stay with the lead pack & never get trapped off the back
with "the gruesome twosome" or any other "desperate singleton racers".
=))
Racing is so much fun!

On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:39 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

> Oh ok. Sure.
>
> That explains the 90+ field sizes at PIR.
>
> Unsporting behavior is screaming obscenities at fellow
> racers...laying hands on another racer...doing dangerous things with
> your bike on purpose that might cause a crash.
>
> Your telling me that keeping a chase group from catching a teammate
> is unsporting?
>
> Have your parents call me and I will explain it to them for you.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Mick Walsh
> wrote:
> That's one reason numbers are down I guess, Joe.
> Question answered.
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Mike Rosenfeld
> wrote:
>
>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing
>> up the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that
>> people actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>
>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack
>> to your teammates!
>>
>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some
>> weight but has it changed that much?
>>
>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race,
>> are their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>
>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the
>> back and a green participation ribbon?
>>
>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
>> good is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let
>> the rest of the group catch their team mates.
>>
>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh
>> wrote:
>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their
>> efforts by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting
>> behavior IMHO
>>
>> Mick
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let
>>> it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at
>>> other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind
>>> you....little bits foam tend to go flying.
>>>
>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not
>>> about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for
>>> participation.
>>>
>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you
>>> play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good
>>> about their efforts.
>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>> Cc: Obra
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>
>>>
>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate
>>> you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>
>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Jamie Mikami

2013-06-06

Isn't PIR where all tactics should be tested - to me it should be of course
you do it at PIR, safe and all your teammates are there. Most of us are not
going to ever get a chance to race at the big races, so testing out your
wits/tactics at PIR is the only chance you are going to get, especially with
a large field in a open space. You can get your workouts in at PIR and let
me tell you staying in 2nd wheel and jumping hard to keep your spot is a
workout itself. Plus when they get caught, as most breaks do, it is your
turn to go and get in a workout, or lead out your sprinter so he can take
the glory ... again.

I have heard people complain about this for the last 25 years and there is
always some that see it as negative and some that see it as tactics. I see
it as tactics and a very easy one to spot and just as easy to beat. So if
you don't like people going slow in the paceline, point them out to the
group and don't let them back in. Until they unsafely try and break into
the paceline, they are just trying to win as much as the people trying to
chase down the break. Once they are unsafe then have a chat with them and
if needed point them out to the officials.

For those that don't like it, band together and ride at the front and the
break will be caught ... again. I personally find it odd that many of the
people who didn't like me blocking were attacking hard riders who wanted to
get in the break and are not the best sprinters. I would think these are
the people who should want people blocking to let the chasers stay away from
us lazy sprinter types who are just hoping it all comes back so we can mop
up with the same top 5 sprinters that win every race.

So actually what am I saying ... I prefer to be the lazy sprinter who only
works the last 200 meters, so I agree no more blocking ... lets pull all
them breaks back in because sprinters should win everytime!

While maybe negative, I still have fun and enjoy the sport and all the
tactics that come with it.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mick Walsh"
To: "Ron Frerichs"
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing

> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>
> I
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>
>> And blocking at PR????
>>
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>>>
>>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
>>> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because
>>> you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>>>
>>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
>>> congratulations.
>>>
>>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
>>> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its
>>> not the same people you pissed off last week.
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>>> To:
>>> Cc:
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
>>> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people
>>> actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>>
>>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
>>> your teammates!
>>>
>>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
>>> but has it changed that much?
>>>
>>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
>>> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
>>> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>>
>>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
>>> and a green participation ribbon?
>>>
>>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
>>> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of
>>> the group catch their team mates.
>>>
>>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
>>> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>>> IMHO
>>>
>>>
>>> Mick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
>>> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>>> tend to go flying.
>>>
>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>
>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>>> efforts.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------
>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>> Cc: Obra
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Tim Schauer

2013-06-06

Assuming for the moment that we are only discussion legal tactics...

Everyone has a different definition or standard of what they are willing to
do (or not do) to win or to help their teammates win. Some don't care what
other competitors think of their tactics and some care very much because
one of their goals is to gain and retain the respect of their competitors.
Furthermore, our competitors are not all the same and your tactics will be
received and judged differently. Whether we each think we race positively
or not is irrelevant. The reality is that positive or negative tactics is a
judgment of your tactics and you don't get to judge your own tactics. Your
reputation as a bike racer is not yours to define. It is defined by your
peers. If you care what people think of your tactics, do something about
it. If you don't care then why debate it?

My limited perspective on racing bikes is that the amateur racing dynamic
of the peleton (or the single track) is based greatly on trust among
competitors and that trust is a unique recipe blend of trust in skill level
one brings to the group and the tactics one brings to the race. OBRA has
thrived in recent years for many many reasons, but one reason that I think
has influenced our growth is that our brand of NW racing is more welcoming
and respectful and less cut throat and win at all costs that can be
experienced in other regions.

Respectfully,
*Tim Schauer*

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
> tend to go flying.
>
> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>
> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
> efforts.
> ------------------------------
> From: Erik Voldengen
> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> Cc: Obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>
>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>
>
> But it's not negative. Got it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Brandon

2013-06-06

2nd place is the first loser! And if I can help out a mate to ensure he is not the first loser then I will! The only thing that makes cycling a team sport is good tactics and not chasing when your team mate is up the road is good tactics! This is also why I like team radios!
B

Sent from my iPhone
------__o
----_ \ {,
---(_)/(_)

On Jun 6, 2013, at 8:36 PM, Mick Walsh wrote:

> That's one reason numbers are down I guess, Joe.
> Question answered.
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>
>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>
>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to your teammates!
>>
>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but has it changed that much?
>>
>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>
>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back and a green participation ribbon?
>>
>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the group catch their team mates.
>>
>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior IMHO
>>>
>>> Mick
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam tend to go flying.
>>>>
>>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>>
>>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their efforts.
>>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>>> Cc: Obra
>>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>>
>>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>
>>>> OBRA mailing list
>>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-06

I have seen that happen a lot too, but that's a different rant :)

All in all I hope we can all at least agree that verbally rude language,
and down right intentionally dangerous riding is truly unsporting (in any
cycling event...road...cross..mtn...kiddy cross)...uncool...and just not
needed.
Right?

As far as disrupting a chase group we just agree to disagree.

This has been fun. Going to go for a long lunch ride now.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:

> Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)
>
> I
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>
> > And blocking at PR????
> >
> >
> > On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs "
> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
> >>
> >> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least
> around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because you're
> stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
> >>
> >> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then
> congratulations.
> >>
> >> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need
> cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its not
> the same people you pissed off last week.
> >>
> >> Ron
> >>
> >> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Mike Rosenfeld
> >> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
> >> To:
> >> Cc:
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up
> the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually
> think this. You have to be kidding me.
> >>
> >> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
> your teammates!
> >>
> >> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight
> but has it changed that much?
> >>
> >> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
> >>
> >> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
> and a green participation ribbon?
> >>
> >> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What
> good is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest
> of the group catch their team mates.
> >>
> >> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh mickwalsh1@comcast.net> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
> by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
> >> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
> IMHO
> >>
> >>
> >> Mick
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld rosenfeldma@gmail.com> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it
> go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
> tend to go flying.
> >>
> >> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
> >>
> >> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
> efforts.
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------
> >> From: Erik Voldengen
> >> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> >> Cc: Obra
> >> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
> loath you, I despise your very existence.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> But it's not negative. Got it.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>
> >> OBRA mailing list
> >> obra@list.obra.org
> >> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> >> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org>
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Mick Walsh

2013-06-06

Sorry PIR, you should be attacking your teammates there :-)

I

On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:44 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:

> And blocking at PR????
>
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs " wrote:
>
>> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>>
>> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>>
>> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then congratulations.
>>
>> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its not the same people you pissed off last week.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mike Rosenfeld
>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
>> To:
>> Cc:
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>
>>
>>
>> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>>
>> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to your teammates!
>>
>> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but has it changed that much?
>>
>> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>>
>> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back and a green participation ribbon?
>>
>> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the group catch their team mates.
>>
>> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh > wrote:
>>
>>
>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior IMHO
>>
>>
>> Mick
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam tend to go flying.
>>
>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>
>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their efforts.
>>
>>
>> ----------------
>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> Cc: Obra
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mick Walsh

2013-06-06

And blocking at PR????

On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:42 AM, "Ron Frerichs " wrote:

> I'm from Mick's generation, so maybe that's why I come down on his side
>
> What I've always liked about bike racing is the protocol (at least around tactics - don't make this a doping discussion). Win because you're stronger and smarter, not because you're able to get in the way.
>
> But hey, if you feel good about whatever you needed to do to win, then congratulations.
>
> Just realize that there will also be situations where you need cooperation from another team or rider to get a result. Hopefully its not the same people you pissed off last week.
>
> Ron
>
> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Rosenfeld
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 18:27:09
> To:
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>
> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>
> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to your teammates!
>
> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but has it changed that much?
>
> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>
> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back and a green participation ribbon?
>
> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the group catch their team mates.
>
> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh > wrote:
>
>
> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior IMHO
>
>
> Mick
>
>
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld > wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam tend to go flying.
>
> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>
> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their efforts.
>
>
> ----------------
> From: Erik Voldengen
> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> Cc: Obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.
>
>
>
>
> But it's not negative. Got it.
> _______________________________________________
>
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Leia Tyrrell

2013-06-06

Thanks for being the voice of reason Mike. Bike racing is very different
from friendly club rides, centuries...ect. It is a competition against
other teams, and there is strategy involved.

On Thursday, June 6, 2013, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the
chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually
think this. You have to be kidding me.
>
> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
your teammates!
>
> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but
has it changed that much?
>
> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>
> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
and a green participation ribbon?
>
> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the
group catch their team mates.
>
> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh
wrote:
>>
>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts
by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
IMHO
>> Mick
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld
wrote:
>>
>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
tend to go flying.
>>
>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>
>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
efforts.
>> ________________________________
>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> Cc: Obra
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>
>>
>>>
>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>
>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-06

Oh ok. Sure.

That explains the 90+ field sizes at PIR.

Unsporting behavior is screaming obscenities at fellow racers...laying
hands on another racer...doing dangerous things with your bike on purpose
that might cause a crash.

Your telling me that keeping a chase group from catching a teammate is
unsporting?

Have your parents call me and I will explain it to them for you.

Mike

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:

> That's one reason numbers are down I guess, Joe.
> Question answered.
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>
> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the
> chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually
> think this. You have to be kidding me.
>
> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to
> your teammates!
>
> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but
> has it changed that much?
>
> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing
> bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are
> their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>
> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back
> and a green participation ribbon?
>
> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good
> is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the
> group catch their team mates.
>
> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>
>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by
>> attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
>> IMHO
>>
>> Mick
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld
>> wrote:
>>
>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it
>> go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
>> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
>> tend to go flying.
>>
>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
>> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>
>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
>> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
>> efforts.
>> ------------------------------
>> From: Erik Voldengen
>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>> Cc: Obra
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>
>>
>>
>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>
>>
>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>>
>


Mick Walsh

2013-06-06

That's one reason numbers are down I guess, Joe.
Question answered.

On Jun 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

> Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually think this. You have to be kidding me.
>
> Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to your teammates!
>
> I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but has it changed that much?
>
> Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing bikes. If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are their mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.
>
> Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back and a green participation ribbon?
>
> Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good is a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the group catch their team mates.
>
> Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:
>> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
>> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior IMHO
>>
>> Mick
>>
>> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>>
>>> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam tend to go flying.
>>>
>>> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>>>
>>> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their efforts.
>>> From: Erik Voldengen
>>> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
>>> Cc: Obra
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>>
>>> But it's not negative. Got it.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>


Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-06

Dude! Really!!! Are you serious??!! Getting involved and messing up the
chase is unsporting behavior? I am flabbergasted that people actually
think this. You have to be kidding me.

Attack the chase group? all that does is pull the rest of the pack to your
teammates!

I know I took a few years off to raise some kids and gain some weight but
has it changed that much?

Has the helicopter parent generation of kids finally started racing bikes.
If I offend them by disrupting their chase group in a race, are their
mommies and daddies going to give me a stern talking too.

Should OBRA be waiting at the end of race with a hearty pat on the back and
a green participation ribbon?

Its a race...a competition...we might as well not have teams. What good is
a team if they are going to just sit at the back and let the rest of the
group catch their team mates.

Wow...just wow. I am now depressed.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 11:14 AM, Mick Walsh wrote:

> But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by
> attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
> Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior
> IMHO
>
> Mick
>
> On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:
>
> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go
> when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers
> and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam
> tend to go flying.
>
> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about
> making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>
> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to
> win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their
> efforts.
> ------------------------------
> From: Erik Voldengen
> Sent: 6/6/2013 10:45 AM
> Cc: Obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>
>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
>> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>>
>
> But it's not negative. Got it.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Mick Walsh

2013-06-06

But you should respect your competition, you can disrupt their efforts by attacking when they are trying to chase if you choose.
Getting involved in trying to mess up the chase is unsporting behavior IMHO

Mick

On Jun 6, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Mike Rosenfeld wrote:

> Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam tend to go flying.
>
> Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.
>
> Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their efforts.
> From: Erik Voldengen
> Sent: ‎6/‎6/‎2013 10:45 AM
> Cc: Obra
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
>
>> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.
>
> But it's not negative. Got it.
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org


Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-06

Nope...cause its all about perspective. Its just a race. You let it go when you cross the line. Its not like I am yelling crap at other racers and spitting on them ....not intentionally mind you....little bits foam tend to go flying.

Competition is just a humane war. Someone has to win. Its not about making sure everyone gets a ribbon at the of the day for participation.

Last time I checked bike racing is a sport. And in sports you play to win. Not to make sure the other team or teams feel good about their efforts.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Erik Voldengen"
Sent: ‎6/‎6/‎2013 10:45 AM
Cc: "Obra"
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing


If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I loath you, I despise your very existence.

But it's not negative. Got it.


Erik Voldengen

2013-06-06

> If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
> loath you, I despise your very existence.
>

But it's not negative. Got it.


Mike Rosenfeld

2013-06-06

Sitting up and fake pulls are part of the tactics of racing. Its not
negative racing. You really think someone is not going to disrupt a pace
line to help a team mate who is off the front. If my team mates sat at the
back of the pack while I was damaging my internal organs trying to stay in
a break either solo or with others I would be foaming at the mouth
furious. I would expect them to disrupt the front of the race as safely as
possible. I would expect them to viciously take fake pulls, or even better
just sit at the front of the pace line and make those behind go around
them. Or go to the side of the track that offers the least protection from
the wind. Nothing negative about it.

As long as they aren't slamming on their brakes for no reason, swerving on
purpose, or physically man handling the chasers...I say its all fair in
love and war and bike racing.

Racing is a completive sport ...not a love in. "no no...its ok...I will
just sit here while you chase down my team...no..no...go ahead"

If you aren't on my team while racing you are the enemy, I hate you, I
loath you, I despise your very existence. I will do everything in my power
(legally and safely mind you) to keep you and your team from winning.
After the race I let it all go and congratulate the winner and his or her
team mates maybe have a beer, shoot the s!@t, talk about how cool it was
when they attacked at that perfect moment. It is after all just a race.
However for those brief hours of racing it is war and I love it so.

That being said. I am now old, slow, prone to tales of races gone by that
everyone has heard 1000 times, and now just try to hang onto the back of
the pack.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Jamie Mikami wrote:

> **
> While I doubt I am with the majority here, I think that all "safe" tactics
> are fair game at races, especially places like PIR. That is the whole
> point of going to PIR, IMO. Learn what works and what doesn't work for you
> and your team/friends.
>
> For some that is try the long break, or sprinting at the end, for some
> that is chasing down the breaks or setting tempo in the field and for some
> it is racing what some term as negative. My favorite thing use to be
> getting in the break and then just sitting on. Talk about something that
> will teach you some new combinations of cursing ... I got much more crap
> for that then sitting in 2nd/3rd wheel breaking up the chase. I have done
> just about every tactic out there at one point if for no other reason than
> to just try it. I use to enjoy pissing people off to throw them off their
> game, so riding in 2nd wheel and not pulling through or pulling through and
> slowing down, boxing people in, etc, were things I did often. After all it
> is a bike race, and not a TT. I love the tactical aspect of our sport.
>
> That said, cycling has a social aspect of racing that is just as important
> as everything else. And since it is very hard to win a race without help
> of some kind, pissing off all the other teams by doing something most
> consider negative will make it even that much harder to win as those teams
> will remember and chase you down or not work with you the next time. So
> pissing off a bunch of your fellow riders is not the best way to make
> friends or do better in your next race, so make sure they know it is all
> about the game. There is often a right way and wrong way to do things, so
> talk to your competitors and let them know your plans if they are getting
> mad, I often did talk with them and often they were ok with it after the
> race, even if they were not so happy during.
>
> So try what you will and live with the results, but at least try something
> and have a plan. The only negative racing IMO is when you just go out
> there and try nothing ... unless of course your fitness goal is to just
> finish ... in that case you did good. But once that is accomplished, make
> a new goal and try it ... but do be safe about it as I do agree there are
> safe and unsafe versions of most tactics.
>
> Jamie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Joseph King
> *To:* obra@list.obra.org
> *Sent:* Thursday, June 06, 2013 9:04 AM
> *Subject:* [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing
>
> Over the past couple years I have noticed a curious trend in the OBRA
> 1/2 fields. Teams seem to use a lot more of what I call "negative tactics"
> these days.
>
> Here is what I understood to be the unwritten rules of breaks and chases
> (aka, "Positive Racing", or just "Racing"):
> In a break, whether leading the race or chasing another break
> - There is a paceline, one side pulls, one side rests.
> - Teammates of riders up the road sit on the back, letting the chasers
> pull them to the front of the race.
>
> What I see now (aka "Negative Racing", because you are trying to slow
> others down, rather than use their efforts to your advantage):
> A break is up the road and a chase forms,
> - Teammates of riders up the road jam up the front of the chase
> - Or worse, they take fake pulls in the paceline and sit up when they hit
> the front, or cut into the rest line behind the rider who just pulled off.
> This seems both dangerous (chasers are usually going pretty close to full
> tilt, and you expect the guy in front of you to pull through) and just
> creates an unpleasant race dynamic.
>
> When I learned to race, at the CSC rides in Eugene and on a big team with
> a lot of ex and future pro's, the one immutable law of racing was: IF
> YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PULL GET OUT OF THE PACELINE. Whether you have a
> teammate up the road or not.
>
> This wasn't so much of an issue when the break was always like 3 Kiwis,
> Doug or Evan and maybe 1 or 2 strong locals. Local teams are now more able
> to flex their muscle, and seem to choose to slow the race, rather than
> capitalize on the efforts of others.
>
> Does this make sense to anyone? Am I just getting old and the
> "back-in-the-day" stories are starting?
>
>
> Joseph King
> josmking@gmail.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>


Jamie Mikami

2013-06-06

While I doubt I am with the majority here, I think that all "safe" tactics are fair game at races, especially places like PIR. That is the whole point of going to PIR, IMO. Learn what works and what doesn't work for you and your team/friends.

For some that is try the long break, or sprinting at the end, for some that is chasing down the breaks or setting tempo in the field and for some it is racing what some term as negative. My favorite thing use to be getting in the break and then just sitting on. Talk about something that will teach you some new combinations of cursing ... I got much more crap for that then sitting in 2nd/3rd wheel breaking up the chase. I have done just about every tactic out there at one point if for no other reason than to just try it. I use to enjoy pissing people off to throw them off their game, so riding in 2nd wheel and not pulling through or pulling through and slowing down, boxing people in, etc, were things I did often. After all it is a bike race, and not a TT. I love the tactical aspect of our sport.

That said, cycling has a social aspect of racing that is just as important as everything else. And since it is very hard to win a race without help of some kind, pissing off all the other teams by doing something most consider negative will make it even that much harder to win as those teams will remember and chase you down or not work with you the next time. So pissing off a bunch of your fellow riders is not the best way to make friends or do better in your next race, so make sure they know it is all about the game. There is often a right way and wrong way to do things, so talk to your competitors and let them know your plans if they are getting mad, I often did talk with them and often they were ok with it after the race, even if they were not so happy during.

So try what you will and live with the results, but at least try something and have a plan. The only negative racing IMO is when you just go out there and try nothing ... unless of course your fitness goal is to just finish ... in that case you did good. But once that is accomplished, make a new goal and try it ... but do be safe about it as I do agree there are safe and unsafe versions of most tactics.

Jamie

----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph King
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 9:04 AM
Subject: [OBRA Chat] Tactics Question - Negative Racing

Over the past couple years I have noticed a curious trend in the OBRA 1/2 fields. Teams seem to use a lot more of what I call "negative tactics" these days.

Here is what I understood to be the unwritten rules of breaks and chases (aka, "Positive Racing", or just "Racing"):

In a break, whether leading the race or chasing another break
- There is a paceline, one side pulls, one side rests.
- Teammates of riders up the road sit on the back, letting the chasers pull them to the front of the race.

What I see now (aka "Negative Racing", because you are trying to slow others down, rather than use their efforts to your advantage):
A break is up the road and a chase forms,
- Teammates of riders up the road jam up the front of the chase
- Or worse, they take fake pulls in the paceline and sit up when they hit the front, or cut into the rest line behind the rider who just pulled off.
This seems both dangerous (chasers are usually going pretty close to full tilt, and you expect the guy in front of you to pull through) and just creates an unpleasant race dynamic.

When I learned to race, at the CSC rides in Eugene and on a big team with a lot of ex and future pro's, the one immutable law of racing was: IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO PULL GET OUT OF THE PACELINE. Whether you have a teammate up the road or not.

This wasn't so much of an issue when the break was always like 3 Kiwis, Doug or Evan and maybe 1 or 2 strong locals. Local teams are now more able to flex their muscle, and seem to choose to slow the race, rather than capitalize on the efforts of others.

Does this make sense to anyone? Am I just getting old and the "back-in-the-day" stories are starting?

Joseph King
josmking@gmail.com

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Joseph King

2013-06-06

Over the past couple years I have noticed a curious trend in the OBRA 1/2
fields. Teams seem to use a lot more of what I call "negative tactics"
these days.

Here is what I understood to be the unwritten rules of breaks and chases
(aka, "Positive Racing", or just "Racing"):
In a break, whether leading the race or chasing another break
- There is a paceline, one side pulls, one side rests.
- Teammates of riders up the road sit on the back, letting the chasers pull
them to the front of the race.

What I see now (aka "Negative Racing", because you are trying to slow
others down, rather than use their efforts to your advantage):
A break is up the road and a chase forms,
- Teammates of riders up the road jam up the front of the chase
- Or worse, they take fake pulls in the paceline and sit up when they hit
the front, or cut into the rest line behind the rider who just pulled off.
This seems both dangerous (chasers are usually going pretty close to full
tilt, and you expect the guy in front of you to pull through) and just
creates an unpleasant race dynamic.

When I learned to race, at the CSC rides in Eugene and on a big team with a
lot of ex and future pro's, the one immutable law of racing was: IF YOU'RE
NOT GOING TO PULL GET OUT OF THE PACELINE. Whether you have a teammate up
the road or not.

This wasn't so much of an issue when the break was always like 3 Kiwis,
Doug or Evan and maybe 1 or 2 strong locals. Local teams are now more able
to flex their muscle, and seem to choose to slow the race, rather than
capitalize on the efforts of others.

Does this make sense to anyone? Am I just getting old and the
"back-in-the-day" stories are starting?

Joseph King
josmking@gmail.com