Tom Orth

I'm a newbie racer this year. I enjoy PIR quite a lot as a friendly place
to learn race tactics. I've enjoyed the comments on sprinters 'sitting in'
as well. I can relate as my physiology is that of a sprinter, and I can
hang with most sprinters in a heads up drag race. If there's one thing
I've learned from PIR is that it's a lot harder to win a race there than
simply sitting in and sprinting the last 200 meters. I suppose we could
ask Tyler Farrar about that as well! Trying to get and keep position in
the chaos of the final lap is much more difficult than I expected. When,
inevitably l get a bad position or another newbie swings wide in a turn
because he can't hold his line AND turn at the same time and I get pushed
out towards the edge of the track...I finally start my sprint, trying to
get around all of the slow moving riders who seem to be moving backwards,
getting boxed in and stopping and restarting the sprint several times,
finally breaking 40 mph or so just in time to see that 14 other riders have
already crossed the finish line. I have a whole new appreciation for the
role of the lead out, for how difficult it is to hold on to a wheel and not
have it stolen by a more aggressive rider who doesn't mind risking a little
bumping in the pack, etc.

On a side note, PIR is dead...flat. Again, newbie guy here so take it for
what it's worth. Is it really a surprise to people that PIR is a sprinters
race? Does it really surprise people that sprinters self assess their
strengths and weaknesses and then try to figure out how to win a race based
on those? Maybe some endurance riders don't notice this...but as a 6'3"
200 pound guy looking at a race calendar, perhaps I am perhaps more aware
of the number of hilly race options in Oregon than others?

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 8:37 PM, eric aldinger wrote:

> I am not sure I am crafty enough to race road.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 4:11 PM, mohair wrote:
>
>>
>> First off, Jamie was right: PIR is where you go to practice your racing
>> chops. This includes dealing with someone taking "soft pulls" while their
>> team heads down the road. One of the important things in a race is to know
>> EXACTLY how many teams are in the pack and how many riders each team has.
>> In the case of a Team X rider blocking while Team X is in a breakaway, the
>> question is: How many Team Y and Team Z riders are there in the chase group
>> and how serious are they about getting rid of the blocker? It's fairly
>> easy to send five riders to the front of the chase group and then move the
>> blocking rider away from the pack. Once the blocking rider has been slowed
>> down, isolated and separated from the chase group, two of the "punishment
>> team" rejoin the chase group as the third rider makes sure that the
>> blocking rider does not get a chance to rejoin the chase group. The last
>> two ride like crazy to bridge up to the breakaway group.
>>
>> Racing is a lot like warfare. The tactics include making temporary
>> alliances to deal with the situation described above. One of the benefits
>> of being on a team is that you can practice your moves with friends on team
>> rides.
>>
>> Look up Junior Johnson on Wikipedia. He was a good ol' boy who raced
>> stock cars in the 50's and proved that you can win a race even when you
>> don't have the fastest car.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Eric Aldinger
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

Peter Gutwald

I agree with Don on this one.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 7:53 PM, michael medina wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Don Joling wrote:
>
>>
>> In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader"
>> telling the Jr's this) is just sitting in the bunch, saving energy, until
>> the final sprint.
>
>
>
> I'm guessing that you either didn't think about saying that or didn't mean
> to say it out loud.
>
> Let's try this instead:
>
> In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
> the Jr's this) is just climbing off the front, playing to your strengths to
> arrive first at the line.
>
> or
>
> In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
> the Jr's this) is just breaking away, using your strength wisely and
> arriving first.
>
> or this
>
> In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
> the Jr's this) is just riding away in a technical section, saving energy,
> because you're so much better in the technical stuff.
>
> while
>
> In reality, some cyclist may only have one card to play and that might be
> a sprint, so sit in and suffer like a dog, more than anyone else in the
> race, because you have a different muscle fiber composition than most
> people, and get accused of not working because you pass everyone in the
> last few hundred meters and they get angry.
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>

eric aldinger

I am not sure I am crafty enough to race road.

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 4:11 PM, mohair wrote:

>
> First off, Jamie was right: PIR is where you go to practice your racing
> chops. This includes dealing with someone taking "soft pulls" while their
> team heads down the road. One of the important things in a race is to know
> EXACTLY how many teams are in the pack and how many riders each team has.
> In the case of a Team X rider blocking while Team X is in a breakaway, the
> question is: How many Team Y and Team Z riders are there in the chase group
> and how serious are they about getting rid of the blocker? It's fairly
> easy to send five riders to the front of the chase group and then move the
> blocking rider away from the pack. Once the blocking rider has been slowed
> down, isolated and separated from the chase group, two of the "punishment
> team" rejoin the chase group as the third rider makes sure that the
> blocking rider does not get a chance to rejoin the chase group. The last
> two ride like crazy to bridge up to the breakaway group.
>
> Racing is a lot like warfare. The tactics include making temporary
> alliances to deal with the situation described above. One of the benefits
> of being on a team is that you can practice your moves with friends on team
> rides.
>
> Look up Junior Johnson on Wikipedia. He was a good ol' boy who raced
> stock cars in the 50's and proved that you can win a race even when you
> don't have the fastest car.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>

--
Eric Aldinger

michael medina

On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 7:02 PM, Don Joling wrote:

>
> In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
> the Jr's this) is just sitting in the bunch, saving energy, until the final
> sprint.

I'm guessing that you either didn't think about saying that or didn't mean
to say it out loud.

Let's try this instead:

In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
the Jr's this) is just climbing off the front, playing to your strengths to
arrive first at the line.

or

In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
the Jr's this) is just breaking away, using your strength wisely and
arriving first.

or this

In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling
the Jr's this) is just riding away in a technical section, saving energy,
because you're so much better in the technical stuff.

while

In reality, some cyclist may only have one card to play and that might be a
sprint, so sit in and suffer like a dog, more than anyone else in the race,
because you have a different muscle fiber composition than most people, and
get accused of not working because you pass everyone in the last few
hundred meters and they get angry.

Don Joling

Wow. Really? Ask Gebhardt about how frustrating it is when that tactic is used effectively (BB#3 Masters).
Are any of the "Masters" teaching the noobs on their teams the ropes anymore, like was taught to me in my 20's?
Like Jamie has said, all of that, outside of dangerous riding, is part if the game. If we don't use our teams to our advantage, what's the point of being on one?
In reality, what's worse (and I actually overheard a "team leader" telling the Jr's this) is just sitting in the bunch, saving energy, until the final sprint. The joy of road racing is using those tactics, otherwise we might as well all race 'cross (no offense at all to those guys, a different kind of racing altogether).

mohair

First off, Jamie was right: PIR is where you go to practice your racing chops. This includes dealing with someone taking "soft pulls" while their team heads down the road. One of the important things in a race is to know EXACTLY how many teams are in the pack and how many riders each team has. In the case of a Team X rider blocking while Team X is in a breakaway, the question is: How many Team Y and Team Z riders are there in the chase group and how serious are they about getting rid of the blocker? It's fairly easy to send five riders to the front of the chase group and then move the blocking rider away from the pack. Once the blocking rider has been slowed down, isolated and separated from the chase group, two of the "punishment team" rejoin the chase group as the third rider makes sure that the blocking rider does not get a chance to rejoin the chase group. The last two ride like crazy to bridge up to the breakaway group.

Racing is a lot like warfare. The tactics include making temporary alliances to deal with the situation described above. One of the benefits of being on a team is that you can practice your moves with friends on team rides.

Look up Junior Johnson on Wikipedia. He was a good ol' boy who raced stock cars in the 50's and proved that you can win a race even when you don't have the fastest car.

Splinter Wrenn

No, Mark, your memory is just fine.

As far as the John Howard comment, the real masters of the game were the Stetinas, George Mount & Mark Pringle. Oh, and we can't leave out Mike Neel, & Alexi Grewal. Watched a lot of Red Zinger & Coors miles & tactics from the motor during those years.

Splinter Wrenn

“You can never learn less, you can only learn more.” – R. Buckminster Fuller

Sent from my iPad

On Jun 6, 2013, at 1:59 PM, "Mark J. Ginsberg" wrote:

> do they speak Italian and put their pump onto your wheel as you try to speak Italian to them?
>
> Is one of them really John Howard?
>
> is this too obscure?
>
> Ginsberg
>
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
> www.berkshireginsberglaw.com
>
> From: Jamie Mikami
> To: adam holt ; obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
> Blocking is very easily beat with a tight paceline and would not be effective at that level, and someone might pull a Bravard on you and send you to the pavement ;)
>
> The pros are good bike riders and the only way to softpedal in the paceline would be to ride dangerously to break into the paceline ... which would not be allowed ... just try taking a good sprinters wheel in the final of a sprint and imagine they are even better at holding a wheel. Plus 99% of the coverage we see is when the break is established and all are ok with it and the GC team is just ridding tempo not trying to bring it in. Once the sprint team start to pull it in it would be way too much work to try and soft pedal into the group at 30mph and they would not let you in the paceline anyways. Your energy would be better spent doing something else.
>
> Local riders often have crappy pacelines and breaking into one is as easy as pointing a finger and they give up the spot if they are not already half a bike length or more off the wheel to start with. Although I would be curious how much bluffing and crappy riding goes on during the first 30 minutes of a pro race while the breaking is getting away. I have no idea, but that could be a different story. Overall I agree it is a bit of a crappy tactic, but it is also a very valid tactic and teaches riders to pay attention and shouldn't cause any long term resentment at the riders who do it. I can also say that I have seen pros block the local amateurs at big cash races to ensure just the top pros get away ... so they know how to do it when they need to.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: adam holt
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 12:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
> I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.
>
> So forgive me if this is a dumb observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and blocking.
>
> It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?
>
> There's quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and being aggressively passive (blocking).
>
> Well, whatever. In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we think it's more than that.
>
> Adam
>
> > Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
> > From: DrAxeman1@cs.com
> > To: obra@list.obra.org
> > Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
> >
> > I think dangerous racing is negative, and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
> >
> > For me personally, the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of us will not be doing that any time soon.
> >
> > For me? I try to go with WWJD?
> >
> > What Would Jens Do?
> >
> > William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
> > Chiropractic Physician
> > Vertebrata Chiropractic
> > _______________________________________________
> > OBRA mailing list
> > obra@list.obra.org
> > http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> > Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

joec@aracnet.com

Nice reference. Shitty movie, but nice reference.

;)

On 2013-06-06 13:59, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

> do they speak Italian and put their pump onto your wheel as you try to speak Italian to them?
>
> Is one of them really John Howard?
>
> is this too obscure?
>
> Ginsberg
>
> Mark J. Ginsberg
> Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
> Attorneys At Law
> 1216 SE Belmont St.
> Portland, OR 97214
> (503) 542-3000
> Fax (503) 233-6874
> markjginsberg@yahoo.com
> mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
> www.berkshireginsberglaw.com
>
> -------------------------
> FROM: Jamie Mikami
> TO: adam holt ; obra@list.obra.org
> SENT: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:42 PM
> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
> Blocking is very easily beat with a tight paceline and would not be effective at that level, and someone might pull a Bravard on you and send you to the pavement ;)
>
> The pros are good bike riders and the only way to softpedal in the paceline would be to ride dangerously to break into the paceline ... which would not be allowed ... just try taking a good sprinters wheel in the final of a sprint and imagine they are even better at holding a wheel. Plus 99% of the coverage we see is when the break is established and all are ok with it and the GC team is just ridding tempo not trying to bring it in. Once the sprint team start to pull it in it would be way too much work to try and soft pedal into the group at 30mph and they would not let you in the paceline anyways. Your energy would be better spent doing something else.
>
> Local riders often have crappy pacelines and breaking into one is as easy as pointing a finger and they give up the spot if they are not already half a bike length or more off the wheel to start with. Although I would be curious how much bluffing and crappy riding goes on during the first 30 minutes of a pro race while the breaking is getting away. I have no idea, but that could be a different story. Overall I agree it is a bit of a crappy tactic, but it is also a very valid tactic and teaches riders to pay attention and shouldn't cause any long term resentment at the riders who do it. I can also say that I have seen pros block the local amateurs at big cash races to ensure just the top pros get away ... so they know how to do it when they need to.
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> FROM: adam holt
>> TO: obra@list.obra.org
>> SENT: Thursday, June 06, 2013 12:51 PM
>> SUBJECT: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>>
>> I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.
>>
>> So forgive me if this is a dumb observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and blocking.
>>
>> It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?
>>
>> There's quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and being aggressively passive (blocking).
>>
>> Well, whatever. In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we think it's more than that.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
>>> From: DrAxeman1@cs.com
>>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>>>
>>> I think dangerous racing is negative, and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
>>>
>>> For me personally, the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of us will not be doing that any time soon.
>>>
>>> For me? I try to go with WWJD?
>>>
>>> What Would Jens Do?
>>>
>>> William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
>>> Chiropractic Physician
>>> Vertebrata Chiropractic
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> OBRA mailing list
>>> obra@list.obra.org
>>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>>
>> -------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [1]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra [1]
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Links:
------
[1] http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

EAL

Indeed, the pros DO know how to block locals, even putting a pump through the spokes as shown in this rare live race footage at 2:15.   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLZxk1qccI4

________________________________
From: Jamie Mikami
To: adam holt ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing

Blocking is very easily beat with a tight paceline
and would not be effective at that level, and someone might pull a Bravard on
you and send you to the pavement ;)
 
The pros are good bike riders and the only way to
softpedal in the paceline would be to ride dangerously to break into the
paceline ... which would not be allowed ... just try taking a good sprinters
wheel in the final of a sprint and imagine they are even better at holding a
wheel.  Plus 99% of the coverage we see is when the break is established
and all are ok with it and the GC team is just ridding tempo not trying to bring
it in.  Once the sprint team start to pull it in it would be way too much
work to try and soft pedal into the group at 30mph and they would not let you in
the paceline anyways.  Your energy would be better spent doing something
else.
 
Local riders often have crappy pacelines and
breaking into one is as easy as pointing a finger and they give up the spot if
they are not already half a bike length or more off the wheel to start
with.  Although I would be curious how much bluffing and crappy riding goes
on during the first 30 minutes of a pro race while the breaking is getting
away.  I have no idea, but that could be a different story.  Overall I
agree it is a bit of a crappy tactic, but it is also a very valid tactic and
teaches riders to pay attention and shouldn't cause any long term resentment at
the riders who do it.  I can also say that I have seen pros block the local
amateurs at big cash races to ensure just the top pros get away ... so they know
how to do it when they need to.
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
>From: adam holt
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 12:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
>
>I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.
> 
>So forgive me if this is a dumb
observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making
riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel
vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and
blocking. 
> 
>It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the
pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. 
But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously
soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?
> 
>There's
quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and
being aggressively passive (blocking). 
> 
>Well,
whatever.  In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league
softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we
think it's more than that.
> 
>Adam 
> 
>
>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
>> From:
DrAxeman1@cs.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA
Chat] Negative Racing
>>
>> I think dangerous racing is negative,
and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline
and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing
it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the
paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What
I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these
tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them.
Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe
it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun
in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
>>
>> For me personally,
the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team
fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On
narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you
would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of
us will not be doing that any time soon.
>>
>> For me? I try to go
with WWJD?
>>
>> What Would Jens Do?
>>
>> William J.
O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
>> Chiropractic Physician
>> Vertebrata
Chiropractic
>> _______________________________________________
>>
OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>>
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe:
obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing
list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe:
obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Rick Johnson

Did it look like this?...

On 6/6/2013 1:59 PM, Mark J. Ginsberg wrote:

do they speak Italian and put their pump onto your wheel as
you try to speak Italian to them?



Is one of them really John Howard?



is this too obscure?



Ginsberg

 

Mark J. Ginsberg

Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC

Attorneys At Law

1216 SE Belmont St.

Portland, OR 97214

(503) 542-3000

Fax (503) 233-6874

markjginsberg@yahoo.com

mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com

www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

---

From: Jamie Mikami
<jmikami@comcast.net>

To: adam holt
<adam_holt@hotmail.com>; obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:42 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative
Racing

Blocking is very easily beat with a tight
paceline and would not be effective at that level,
and someone might pull a Bravard on you and send you
to the pavement ;)

 

The pros are good bike riders and the only way to
softpedal in the paceline would be to ride
dangerously to break into the paceline ... which
would not be allowed ... just try taking a good
sprinters wheel in the final of a sprint and imagine
they are even better at holding a wheel.  Plus 99%
of the coverage we see is when the break is
established and all are ok with it and the GC team
is just ridding tempo not trying to bring it in. 
Once the sprint team start to pull it in it would be
way too much work to try and soft pedal into the
group at 30mph and they would not let you in the
paceline anyways.  Your energy would be better spent
doing something else.

 

Local riders often have crappy pacelines and
breaking into one is as easy as pointing a finger
and they give up the spot if they are not already
half a bike length or more off the wheel to start
with.  Although I would be curious how much bluffing
and crappy riding goes on during the first 30
minutes of a pro race while the breaking is getting
away.  I have no idea, but that could be a different
story.  Overall I agree it is a bit of a crappy
tactic, but it is also a very valid tactic and
teaches riders to pay attention and shouldn't cause
any long term resentment at the riders who do it.  I
can also say that I have seen pros block the local
amateurs at big cash races to ensure just the top
pros get away ... so they know how to do it when
they need to.

 

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: adam holt

To: obra@list.obra.org

Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 12:51 PM

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing

I like to ride road
bikes for fitness, but I've not done much
road racing - I stick to the grass and
dirt mostly.

 

So forgive me if this is a dumb observation, but
it seems to me like there is a huge difference
between making riders from other teams do all of
the chase work while sitting on a wheel vs
getting to the front and then intentionally
soft-pedalling and blocking. 

 

It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the
pro peleton - making the chase team do all the
work to catch a break.  But do pro's
commonly work to the front and then consiously
soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the
peloton?

 

There's quite a difference between being passive
aggressive (sitting on) and being aggressively
passive (blocking). 

 

Well, whatever.  In reality 99% of us are all
just playing beer league softball here, and
deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when
we think it's more than that.

 

Adam 

 

> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700

> From: DrAxeman1@cs.com

> To: obra@list.obra.org

> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing

>

> I think dangerous racing is negative, and I
don't like that personally. I think that not
taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or
fake pull is all a part of racing and while I
hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third
wheel to pull into first position and the
paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept
to the back of the line? What I don't understand
is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter
these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you
recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is
some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind
word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your
own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the
fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.

>

> For me personally, the only thing that is
safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire
team fans across the road and blocks the
possibility of moving around safely. On narrow
country roads I have seen this and found it
despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a
40 person team to pull that one off, so I think
most of us will not be doing that any time soon.

>

> For me? I try to go with WWJD?

>

> What Would Jens Do?

>

> William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP

> Chiropractic Physician

> Vertebrata Chiropractic

>
_______________________________________________

> OBRA mailing list

> obra@list.obra.org

> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

---

_______________________________________________

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

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obra@list.obra.org

http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra

Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

_______________________________________________

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Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Mark J. Ginsberg

do they speak Italian and put their pump onto your wheel as you try to speak Italian to them?

Is one of them really John Howard?

is this too obscure?

Ginsberg

 
Mark J. Ginsberg
Berkshire Ginsberg, LLC
Attorneys At Law
1216 SE Belmont St.
Portland, OR 97214
(503) 542-3000
Fax (503) 233-6874
markjginsberg@yahoo.com
mark@berkshireginsberglaw.com
www.berkshireginsberglaw.com

________________________________
From: Jamie Mikami
To: adam holt ; obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, June 6, 2013 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing

Blocking is very easily beat with a tight paceline
and would not be effective at that level, and someone might pull a Bravard on
you and send you to the pavement ;)
 
The pros are good bike riders and the only way to
softpedal in the paceline would be to ride dangerously to break into the
paceline ... which would not be allowed ... just try taking a good sprinters
wheel in the final of a sprint and imagine they are even better at holding a
wheel.  Plus 99% of the coverage we see is when the break is established
and all are ok with it and the GC team is just ridding tempo not trying to bring
it in.  Once the sprint team start to pull it in it would be way too much
work to try and soft pedal into the group at 30mph and they would not let you in
the paceline anyways.  Your energy would be better spent doing something
else.
 
Local riders often have crappy pacelines and
breaking into one is as easy as pointing a finger and they give up the spot if
they are not already half a bike length or more off the wheel to start
with.  Although I would be curious how much bluffing and crappy riding goes
on during the first 30 minutes of a pro race while the breaking is getting
away.  I have no idea, but that could be a different story.  Overall I
agree it is a bit of a crappy tactic, but it is also a very valid tactic and
teaches riders to pay attention and shouldn't cause any long term resentment at
the riders who do it.  I can also say that I have seen pros block the local
amateurs at big cash races to ensure just the top pros get away ... so they know
how to do it when they need to.
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
>From: adam holt
>To: obra@list.obra.org
>Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 12:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
>
>I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.
> 
>So forgive me if this is a dumb
observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making
riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel
vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and
blocking. 
> 
>It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the
pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. 
But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously
soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?
> 
>There's
quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and
being aggressively passive (blocking). 
> 
>Well,
whatever.  In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league
softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we
think it's more than that.
> 
>Adam 
> 
>
>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
>> From:
DrAxeman1@cs.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA
Chat] Negative Racing
>>
>> I think dangerous racing is negative,
and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline
and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing
it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the
paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What
I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these
tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them.
Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe
it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun
in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
>>
>> For me personally,
the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team
fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On
narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you
would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of
us will not be doing that any time soon.
>>
>> For me? I try to go
with WWJD?
>>
>> What Would Jens Do?
>>
>> William J.
O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
>> Chiropractic Physician
>> Vertebrata
Chiropractic
>> _______________________________________________
>>
OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>>
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe:
obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing
list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe:
obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
_______________________________________________
OBRA mailing list
obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Jamie Mikami

Blocking is very easily beat with a tight paceline and would not be effective at that level, and someone might pull a Bravard on you and send you to the pavement ;)

The pros are good bike riders and the only way to softpedal in the paceline would be to ride dangerously to break into the paceline ... which would not be allowed ... just try taking a good sprinters wheel in the final of a sprint and imagine they are even better at holding a wheel. Plus 99% of the coverage we see is when the break is established and all are ok with it and the GC team is just ridding tempo not trying to bring it in. Once the sprint team start to pull it in it would be way too much work to try and soft pedal into the group at 30mph and they would not let you in the paceline anyways. Your energy would be better spent doing something else.

Local riders often have crappy pacelines and breaking into one is as easy as pointing a finger and they give up the spot if they are not already half a bike length or more off the wheel to start with. Although I would be curious how much bluffing and crappy riding goes on during the first 30 minutes of a pro race while the breaking is getting away. I have no idea, but that could be a different story. Overall I agree it is a bit of a crappy tactic, but it is also a very valid tactic and teaches riders to pay attention and shouldn't cause any long term resentment at the riders who do it. I can also say that I have seen pros block the local amateurs at big cash races to ensure just the top pros get away ... so they know how to do it when they need to.

----- Original Message -----
From: adam holt
To: obra@list.obra.org
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing

I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.

So forgive me if this is a dumb observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and blocking.

It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?

There's quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and being aggressively passive (blocking).

Well, whatever. In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we think it's more than that.

Adam

> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
> From: DrAxeman1@cs.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
> I think dangerous racing is negative, and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
>
> For me personally, the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of us will not be doing that any time soon.
>
> For me? I try to go with WWJD?
>
> What Would Jens Do?
>
> William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
> Chiropractic Physician
> Vertebrata Chiropractic
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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obra@list.obra.org
http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

Steve Long

This is mostly what i notice too. It seems to be more of an amature racing tactic.
Just saying...

Steve

Sent from my Samsung Infuse Smartphone

adam holt wrote:

>I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.
>
>So forgive me if this is a dumb observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and blocking.
>
>It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?
>
>There's quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and being aggressively passive (blocking).
>
>Well, whatever. In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we think it's more than that.
>
>Adam
>
>
>> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
>> From: DrAxeman1@cs.com
>> To: obra@list.obra.org
>> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>>
>> I think dangerous racing is negative, and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
>>
>> For me personally, the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of us will not be doing that any time soon.
>>
>> For me? I try to go with WWJD?
>>
>> What Would Jens Do?
>>
>> William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
>> Chiropractic Physician
>> Vertebrata Chiropractic
>> _______________________________________________
>> OBRA mailing list
>> obra@list.obra.org
>> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org
>
>_______________________________________________
>OBRA mailing list
>obra@list.obra.org
>http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
>Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

adam holt

I like to ride road bikes for fitness, but I've not done much road racing - I stick to the grass and dirt mostly.

So forgive me if this is a dumb observation, but it seems to me like there is a huge difference between making riders from other teams do all of the chase work while sitting on a wheel vs getting to the front and then intentionally soft-pedalling and blocking.

It seems that sitting on is pretty common in the pro peleton - making the chase team do all the work to catch a break. But do pro's commonly work to the front and then consiously soft-pedal to slow down the flow of of the peloton?

There's quite a difference between being passive aggressive (sitting on) and being aggressively passive (blocking).

Well, whatever. In reality 99% of us are all just playing beer league softball here, and deluding ourselves (I include myself here) when we think it's more than that.

Adam

> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 12:37:53 -0700
> From: DrAxeman1@cs.com
> To: obra@list.obra.org
> Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] Negative Racing
>
> I think dangerous racing is negative, and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.
>
> For me personally, the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of us will not be doing that any time soon.
>
> For me? I try to go with WWJD?
>
> What Would Jens Do?
>
> William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
> Chiropractic Physician
> Vertebrata Chiropractic
> _______________________________________________
> OBRA mailing list
> obra@list.obra.org
> http://list.obra.org/mailman/listinfo/obra
> Unsubscribe: obra-unsubscribe@list.obra.org

William

I think dangerous racing is negative, and I don't like that personally. I think that not taking a pull in a paceline and disrupting or fake pull is all a part of racing and while I hate seeing it, how hard is it for the third wheel to pull into first position and the paceline starts again as the blocker gets swept to the back of the line? What I don't understand is when OBRA racers don't know how to counter these tactics. Sure they are annoying, but you recognize them and counter them. Maybe it is some verbal banter, (a kind or not so kind word/request?) or maybe it is simply using your own counter tactics. Frankly that it part of the fun in racing. It is a chess match on wheels.

For me personally, the only thing that is safe that I do NOT like to see is when an entire team fans across the road and blocks the possibility of moving around safely. On narrow country roads I have seen this and found it despicable, but on PIR you would have to have a 40 person team to pull that one off, so I think most of us will not be doing that any time soon.

For me? I try to go with WWJD?

What Would Jens Do?

William J. O'Donnell, DC, DAAMLP
Chiropractic Physician
Vertebrata Chiropractic