Re: crazy drivers

E lanton

2003-05-28



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The variety of forms of driver harrassment is absolutely amazing. It would probably be worthwhile to collect and publish them.



I've been riding a bike for about 50 years now, so I've got a few stories, but I am only going to relate this one:



I'm riding along and a pickup pulls up right next to me. I decide to ignore the pickup so as not to provoke them. A hand reaches out and pinches me hard on the ass. The pickup truck immediately speeds off, but has to stop at a light up ahead. I catch up to them and look into the cab and what do I see? An 6 year old girl in the passenger seat laughing her head off and there was Dad in the driver's seat obviously pleased and proud of his little one.



I"ve been shot at, run off the road by log trucks, but somehow this was the most depressing.













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<P>The variety of forms of driver harrassment is absolutely amazing.  It would probably be worthwhile to collect and publish them.  </P>

<P>I've been riding a bike for about 50 years now, so I've got a few stories, but I am only going to relate this one:</P>

<P>I'm riding along and a pickup pulls up right next to me.  I decide to ignore the pickup so as not to provoke them.  A hand reaches out and pinches me hard on the ass.  The pickup truck immediately speeds off, but has to stop at a light up ahead. I catch up to them and look into the cab and what do I see?  An 6 year old girl in the passenger seat laughing her head off and there was Dad in the driver's seat obviously pleased and proud of his little one.  </P>

<P>I"ve been shot at, run off the road by log trucks, but somehow this was the most depressing. </P>

<P> </P>

<P> </P><p><hr SIZE=1>

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Keith A. Prior

2003-05-28



Anyone try riding over the St Johns bridge lately during the

construction?

I had a friggin arsehole towing a boat almost make short work of me! He

LEANED on the horn as he was about 10 feet behind me! Scared the

bejeezus outta me! Now THIS makes me want to kill more than anything!!



Ahhh...I feel better now!



-K



Steve-@clark.wa.gov

2003-05-28



Here's a couple of tricks I use out there on the road however, they require

some sort of mirror. I sometimes use one of those mirrors that clip onto

your glasses when I'm on the road or just commuting.



When I notice (from a distance), that a car is approaching, I will often

slowly drift out to around 1/3 of the way out on the road (if I'm not

already out there). As the car gets close enough so that I know they are

going to see me, I swing back over to the right in a dramatic fashion as if

I just noticed a car is approaching and I want to get out of the way for

them. This makes them think I'm trying to be courteous (when in actuality,

I'm trying to protect my own arse). Seems to work pretty well for the most

part. I've had way to many cars come uncomfortably close to me out there.

This, obviously, is for the situation where there is no bike lane. When they

come that close to me when I'm in a bike lane, it just astounds me. I just

don't get why they have to do that.



-----Original Message-----

From: Jens Heycke [mailto:je-@heycke.com]

Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:44 AM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





This is my absolute favorite, on a bike or in a car. I also make an

expression like I just recognized the face of someone I haven't seen for a

while. This works especially well in a small town. The brief look of "Oh

my God, I just did something really rude to someone who knows me" that

passes over their faces is priceless.





Jens





----- Original Message -----

From: <mike.m-@obra.org>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 6:55 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





 John Beckman used to suggest waving, using all 5 fingers. This is

much

more

 satisfying then the traditional gesture because it gives you something

to do, appears friendly and adds even more to your sense of

superiority. Rather like having your own inside joke.



Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H. [mailto:br-@politesociety.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 23:53 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers



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Jens Kurt Heycke

2003-05-28



This is my absolute favorite, on a bike or in a car. I also

make an expression like I just recognized the face of someone

I haven't seen for a while. This works especially well

in a small town. The brief look of "Oh my God, I just

did something really rude to someone who knows me"

that passes over their faces is priceless.





Jens





----- Original Message -----

From: <mike.m-@obra.org>

To: <ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 6:55 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





 John Beckman used to suggest waving, using all 5 fingers. This is much

more

 satisfying then the traditional gesture because it gives you something to

do, appears friendly and adds even more to your sense of superiority.

Rather like having your own inside joke.



Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H. [mailto:br-@politesociety.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 23:53 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers



Dan H.

2003-05-28



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Mark, that sucks. Among the items I've had thrown at me is a knife, a firecracker, a half eaten hamburger, eggs, rotten fruit, a soda in a cup, and once while going up Yamhill someone smashed a coke bottle on the road directly in front of me. And yes, also at least one water baloon.

----- Original Message -----

From: markjgi-@yahoo.com

To: eric.k-@kingdesign.com ; 'br-@politesociety.com' ; ob-@topica.com

Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:07 AM

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





Last night when riding home from PIR a driver and his passenger, driving the other way both threw water balloons at us.



Don't blame these victims thanks, they were jerks! It was illegal, but this time, we couldn't get license plate or any useful info, so we kept riding.



Mark Ginsberg





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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mark, that sucks.  Among the items I've had

thrown at me is a knife, a firecracker, a half eaten hamburger, eggs, rotten

fruit, a soda in a cup, and once while going up Yamhill someone smashed a coke

bottle on the road directly in front of me. And yes, also at least one water

baloon.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=mark-@yahoo.com

href="mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com">markjgi-@yahoo.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=eri-@kingdesign.com

href="mailto:eric.k-@kingdesign.com">eric.k-@kingdesign.com</A> ; <A

title-@politesociety.com

href="mailto:'br-@politesociety.com'">'br-@politesociety.com'</A> ; <A

title-@topica.com href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:07

AM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [OBRA Chat] crazy

drivers</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV>Last night when riding home from PIR a driver and his passenger, driving

the other way both threw water balloons at us.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Don't blame these victims thanks, they were jerks! It was illegal, but

this time, we couldn't get license plate or any useful info, so we kept

riding.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Mark Ginsberg<BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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Peter Gierga

2003-05-28



I totally agree with this view point. I feel these types are just looking

for a reason or trouble. So about anything you do could provoke something

even the wave. And more than likely than not it will be negative. Best to

just let it slide. If its bad get the plate. We have one bad road out here

in Bend Alfalfa MKT road. Im usually on the ditch side of the fog line and

still get buzzed there's a old car with a mangled bike on the hood with

some red paint along the way and it says. I Road in the middle of the Road.

If the spelling of the statement tells you anything about the brain cell

count take heed.       Be careful out there in Portland.

                                  Best, Peter





 From: "Dan H." <br-@politesociety.com>

Reply-To: br-@politesociety.com

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers

Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 23:53:09 -0700



First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just spoiling for a fight no

matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that anyone provoked the

driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there. But I have to

wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars and "go

off" for no reason. When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it happened

more often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a yell, a

close drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit salute.

Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I did NOT say gun] I have begun to

let those idiocies slide with no response from me so as not to escalate a

situation to the point where I might actually have to use it. The result

has been [MOST of the time] that the offending driver just keeps going and

that's the last I see of them.

When someone in a car does something stupid toward you maybe the best

course of action is no action [or reaction] usually the episode ends there

and nothing happens. You finish your ride and cheat death again to ride

another day.

I know of a former racer that was slapped from behind by an "A"hole in a

pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was the afore mentioned

salute. The result was that the "A"hole and his two pals left him in the

ditch unconscious and bleeding. He did win a settlement but consider that

if he had simply recorded the license number without reacting he still

might have won a settlement only without the bleeding in the ditch part.

[oh, and stomped bike too.]

Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? Think about it.

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Becky and Nikos

   To: ob-@topica.com

   Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28 PM

   Subject: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





   We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and

descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report

involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike

lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police

(long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out

the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.



   Nikos







   >As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to

menacing drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a

good idea.

   >

   >Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a

ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly

it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.

   >

   >More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be

illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.

   >

   >Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public

attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the

details.

   >

   >Just my thoughts.

   >

   >-r





   > BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers,

with

   > details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by

anyone.

   > Any thoughts?

   >

   > Evan



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markjgi-@yahoo.com

2003-05-28



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Last night when riding home from PIR a driver and his passenger, driving the other way both threw water balloons at us.



Don't blame these victims thanks, they were jerks! It was illegal, but this time, we couldn't get license plate or any useful info, so we kept riding.



Mark Ginsberg



Eric Kytola <eric.k-@kingdesign.com> wrote:

blame the victim



that's nice

-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H. [mailto:br-@politesociety.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:53 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just spoiling for a fight no matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that anyone provoked the driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there. But I have to wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars and "go off" for no reason. When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it happened more often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a yell, a close drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit salute.

Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I did NOT say gun] I have begun to let those idiocies slide with no response from me so as not to escalate a situation to the point where I might actually have to use it. The result has been [MOST of the time] that the offending driver just keeps going and that's the last I see of them.

When someone in a car does something stupid toward you maybe the best course of action is no action [or reaction] usually the episode ends there and nothing happens. You finish your ride and cheat death again to ride another day.

I know of a former racer that was slapped from behind by an "A"hole in a pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was the afore mentioned salute. The result was that the "A"hole and his two pals left him in the ditch unconscious and bleeding. He did win a settlement but consider that if he had simply recorded the license number without reacting he still might have won a settlement only without the bleeding in the ditch part. [oh, and stomped bike too.]

Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? Think about it.

----- Original Message -----

From: Becky and Nikos

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police (long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.



Nikos







 As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good idea.



Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.



More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.



Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.



Just my thoughts.



-r





 BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.

Any thoughts?



Evan





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Mark J. GinsbergAttorney At Law851 SW 6th Ave., Ste. 1600Portland OR 97204(503) 542-3000Fax (503) 248-6800 markjgi-@yahoo.com



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<DIV>Last night when riding home from PIR a driver and his passenger, driving the other way both threw water balloons at us.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Don't blame these victims thanks, they were jerks! It was illegal, but this time, we couldn't get license plate or any useful info, so we kept riding.</DIV>

<DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Mark Ginsberg<BR><BR><B><I>Eric Kytola <eric.k-@kingdesign.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>

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<DIV><SPAN class=956530714-28052003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>blame the victim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=956530714-28052003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=956530714-28052003><SPAN class=643100814-28052003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>that's nice</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Dan H. [mailto:br-@politesociety.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:53 PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just spoiling for a fight no matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that anyone provoked the driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there. But I have to wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars and "go off" for no reason.  When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it happened more often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a yell, a close drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit salute.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I did NOT say gun] I have begun to let those idiocies slide with no response from me so as not to escalate a situation to the point where I might actually have to use it.  The result has been [MOST of the time] that the offending driver just keeps going and that's the last I see of them.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When someone in a car does something stupid toward you maybe the best course of action is no action [or reaction] usually the episode ends there and nothing happens.  You finish your ride and cheat death again to ride another day.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know of a former racer that was slapped from behind by an "A"hole in a pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was the afore mentioned salute.  The result was that the "A"hole and his two pals left him in the ditch unconscious and bleeding.  He did win a settlement but consider that if he had simply recorded the license number without reacting he still might have won a settlement only without the bleeding in the ditch part. [oh, and stomped bike too.]</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers?  Think about it.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=n-@dslnorthwest.net href="mailto:niko-@dslnorthwest.net">Becky and Nikos</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28 PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police (long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nikos</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>>As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good idea.<BR>><BR>>Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.<BR>><BR>>More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.<BR>><BR>>Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.<BR>><BR>>Just my thoughts.<BR>><BR>>-r</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>> BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with<BR>> details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.<BR>> Any thoughts?<BR>><BR>> Evan</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><ADDRESS>Mark J. Ginsberg</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Attorney At Law</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>851 SW 6th Ave., Ste. 1600</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Portland OR 97204</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>(503) 542-3000</ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS>Fax (503) 248-6800 </ADDRESS>

<ADDRESS><A href="mailto:markjgi-@yahoo.com">markjgi-@yahoo.com</A></ADDRESS>

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roger-@speakeasy.net

2003-05-28



 {deletia}

Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? Think about it.



The other day an avid cyclist friend of mine (who is a non-aggressive rider), had someone zoom past them on Ainsworth, slam on the brakes and wave a gun at her. This was of course reported to the police. She had done nothing other than to possibly slow this person down since there is a tight fit on Ainsworth when the cars are parallel parked on the side.



So yes, these cases where it is unprovoked, but I am sure the scale is not skewed completely one way or the other.



As an aside, on my old team in MN, we had team rule #1 ... on any team ride, traffic violations or aggressive bahavior towards cars while on team rides or events was grounds for immediate dismissal. Yes, that even meant running a stop sign. The rule got some grumblings at first, but nobody quit and we never kicked anyone off the team AND we did not have a lot of "angst" incidents.



-r



Eric Kytola

2003-05-28



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blame the victim



that's nice



-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H. [mailto:br-@politesociety.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:53 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just spoiling for a fight no

matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that anyone provoked the

driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there. But I have to

wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars and "go off"

for no reason. When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it happened more

often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a yell, a close

drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit salute.

Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I did NOT say gun] I have begun to

let those idiocies slide with no response from me so as not to escalate a

situation to the point where I might actually have to use it. The result

has been [MOST of the time] that the offending driver just keeps going and

that's the last I see of them.

When someone in a car does something stupid toward you maybe the best course

of action is no action [or reaction] usually the episode ends there and

nothing happens. You finish your ride and cheat death again to ride another

day.

I know of a former racer that was slapped from behind by an "A"hole in a

pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was the afore mentioned

salute. The result was that the "A"hole and his two pals left him in the

ditch unconscious and bleeding. He did win a settlement but consider that

if he had simply recorded the license number without reacting he still might

have won a settlement only without the bleeding in the ditch part. [oh, and

stomped bike too.]

Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? Think about it.



----- Original Message -----

From: Becky and Nikos <mailto:niko-@dslnorthwest.net>

To: ob-@topica.com <mailto:ob-@topica.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers



We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and

descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report

involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike

lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police

(long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the

driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.



Nikos







 As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing

drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good

idea.

 

Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a

ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly

it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.

 

More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be

illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.

 

Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to

some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.

 

Just my thoughts.



-r





 BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by

anyone.

 Any thoughts?



Evan



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.



To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com



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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>

<DIV><SPAN class=956530714-28052003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>blame

the victim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=956530714-28052003><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff

size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

<DIV><SPAN class=956530714-28052003><SPAN class=643100814-28052003><FONT

face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>that's nice</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma

size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Dan H.

[mailto:br-@politesociety.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 27, 2003 11:53

PM<BR><B>To:</B> ob-@topica.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy

drivers<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just

spoiling for a fight no matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that

anyone provoked the driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not

there. But I have to wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of

their cars and "go off" for no reason.  When I was a youngster [under 30]

it seems it happened more often usually because me or someone in my group

responded to a yell, a close drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a

single digit salute.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I

did NOT say gun] I have begun to let those idiocies slide with no

response from me so as not to escalate a situation to the point where I might

actually have to use it.  The result has been [MOST of the time] that the

offending driver just keeps going and that's the last I see of

them.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When someone in a car does something stupid

toward you maybe the best course of action is no action [or reaction] usually

the episode ends there and nothing happens.  You finish your ride

and cheat death again to ride another day.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know of a former racer that was slapped from

behind by an "A"hole in a pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response

was the afore mentioned salute.  The result was that the "A"hole and his

two pals left him in the ditch unconscious and bleeding.  He did win a

settlement but consider that if he had simply recorded the license number

without reacting he still might have won a settlement only without the

bleeding in the ditch part. [oh, and stomped bike too.]</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? 

Think about it.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

    <DIV

    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

    <A title=n-@dslnorthwest.net

    href="mailto:niko-@dslnorthwest.net">Becky and Nikos</A> </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

    href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28

    PM</DIV>

    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] crazy

drivers</DIV>

    <DIV><BR></DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We could make a database, and include names,

    lic. plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if

    there is a police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches

    while I was in the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was

    reported to the police (long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot

    on file. Turned out the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to

    him.</FONT></DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nikos</FONT></DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial

    size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial

    size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial

    size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>>As much

    as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers,

    I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good

    idea.<BR>><BR>>Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek

    revenge by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any

    damage, but certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and

    misinformation.<BR>><BR>>More importantly, what I perceive as

    irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of

    others.<BR>><BR>>Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to

    bring public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil

    is in the details.<BR>><BR>>Just my

    thoughts.<BR>><BR>>-r</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>> BTW, I

    was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with<BR>>

    details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by

    anyone.<BR>> Any thoughts?<BR>><BR>> Evan</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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mike.m-@obra.org

2003-05-28



John Beckman used to suggest waving, using all 5 fingers. This is much more

satisfying then the traditional gesture because it gives you something to

do, appears friendly and adds even more to your sense of superiority.

Rather like having your own inside joke.



Mike Murray

-----Original Message-----

From: Dan H. [mailto:br-@politesociety.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 23:53 PM

To: ob-@topica.com

Subject: Re: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just spoiling for a fight no

matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that anyone provoked the

driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there. But I have to

wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars and "go off"

for no reason. When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it happened more

often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a yell, a close

drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit salute.

Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I did NOT say gun] I have begun to

let those idiocies slide with no response from me so as not to escalate a

situation to the point where I might actually have to use it. The result

has been [MOST of the time] that the offending driver just keeps going and

that's the last I see of them.

When someone in a car does something stupid toward you maybe the best course

of action is no action [or reaction] usually the episode ends there and

nothing happens. You finish your ride and cheat death again to ride another

day.

I know of a former racer that was slapped from behind by an "A"hole in a

pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was the afore mentioned

salute. The result was that the "A"hole and his two pals left him in the

ditch unconscious and bleeding. He did win a settlement but consider that

if he had simply recorded the license number without reacting he still might

have won a settlement only without the bleeding in the ditch part. [oh, and

stomped bike too.]

Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? Think about it.

----- Original Message -----

From: Becky and Nikos

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and

descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report

involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike

lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police

(long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the

driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.



Nikos







 As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing

drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good

idea.

 

Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a

ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly

it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.

 

More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be

illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.

 

Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to

some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.

 

Just my thoughts.



-r





 BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by

anyone.

 Any thoughts?



Evan



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com

To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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Dan H.

2003-05-27



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First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just spoiling for a fight no matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that anyone provoked the driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there. But I have to wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars and "go off" for no reason. When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it happened more often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a yell, a close drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit salute.

Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I did NOT say gun] I have begun to let those idiocies slide with no response from me so as not to escalate a situation to the point where I might actually have to use it. The result has been [MOST of the time] that the offending driver just keeps going and that's the last I see of them.

When someone in a car does something stupid toward you maybe the best course of action is no action [or reaction] usually the episode ends there and nothing happens. You finish your ride and cheat death again to ride another day.

I know of a former racer that was slapped from behind by an "A"hole in a pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was the afore mentioned salute. The result was that the "A"hole and his two pals left him in the ditch unconscious and bleeding. He did win a settlement but consider that if he had simply recorded the license number without reacting he still might have won a settlement only without the bleeding in the ditch part. [oh, and stomped bike too.]

Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers? Think about it.

----- Original Message -----

From: Becky and Nikos

To: ob-@topica.com

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28 PM

Subject: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers





We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police (long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.



Nikos







>As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good idea.

>

>Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.

>

>More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.

>

>Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.

>

>Just my thoughts.

>

>-r





> BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

> details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.

> Any thoughts?

>

> Evan



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</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>First, I know there a FEW drivers that are just

spoiling for a fight no matter what. They ARE out there. I'm NOT saying that

anyone provoked the driver this thread is about. I don't know. I was not there.

But I have to wonder why so many cyclists have drivers jump out of their cars

and "go off" for no reason.  When I was a youngster [under 30] it seems it

happened more often usually because me or someone in my group responded to a

yell, a close drive by, a thrown object or whatever with a single digit

salute.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Since I have started carrying a weapon, [I

did NOT say gun] I have begun to let those idiocies slide with no response

from me so as not to escalate a situation to the point where I might actually

have to use it.  The result has been [MOST of the time] that the offending

driver just keeps going and that's the last I see of them.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When someone in a car does something stupid toward

you maybe the best course of action is no action [or reaction] usually the

episode ends there and nothing happens.  You finish your ride

and cheat death again to ride another day.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I know of a former racer that was slapped from

behind by an "A"hole in a pick up [why is it always a pick up?] his response was

the afore mentioned salute.  The result was that the "A"hole and his two

pals left him in the ditch unconscious and bleeding.  He did win a

settlement but consider that if he had simply recorded the license number

without reacting he still might have won a settlement only without the bleeding

in the ditch part. [oh, and stomped bike too.]</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Are you doing NOTHING to upset drivers?  Think

about it.</FONT></DIV>

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr

style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>

<DIV

style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>

<A title=n-@dslnorthwest.net

href="mailto:niko-@dslnorthwest.net">Becky and Nikos</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title-@topica.com

href="mailto:ob-@topica.com">ob-@topica.com</A> </DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:28

PM</DIV>

<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers</DIV>

<DIV><BR></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We could make a database, and include names, lic.

plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a

police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in

the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the

police (long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned

out the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nikos</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial

size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial

size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial

size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>>As much

as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I

am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good

idea.<BR>><BR>>Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge

by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage,

but certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and

misinformation.<BR>><BR>>More importantly, what I perceive as

irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of

others.<BR>><BR>>Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring

public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in

the details.<BR>><BR>>Just my

thoughts.<BR>><BR>>-r</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>> BTW, I

was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with<BR>>

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by

anyone.<BR>> Any thoughts?<BR>><BR>> Evan</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT><PRE>To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

To respond to the list manager send to ob-@teleport.com

To unsubscribe send to obra-uns-@topica.com</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>



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Becky and Nikos

2003-05-27



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We could make a database, and include names, lic. plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police (long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.



Nikos







 As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good idea.



Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and misinformation.



More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.



Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.



Just my thoughts.



-r





 BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.

Any thoughts?



Evan



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<HTML><HEAD>

<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR>

<STYLE></STYLE>

</HEAD>

<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We could make a database, and include names, lic.

plate numbers and descriptions of cars and idiots involved, only if there is a

police report involved. I had a right mirror miss me by inches while I was in

the bike lane a few years ago and the ensuing episode was reported to the police

(long story). I have name, car and mug shot of idiot on file. Turned out the

driver had a criminal record; nothing happened to him.</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nikos</FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>>As much as

I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I am

not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good

idea.<BR>><BR>>Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by

reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but

certainly it is a platform >for internet slander and

misinformation.<BR>><BR>>More importantly, what I perceive as

irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of

others.<BR>><BR>>Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring

public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the

details.<BR>><BR>>Just my

thoughts.<BR>><BR>>-r</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>> BTW, I was

thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with<BR>> details

on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.<BR>>

Any thoughts?<BR>><BR>> Evan</FONT><BR></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>



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David Kerchinsky

2003-05-27



Wouldn't it be cool if some ya-hoo was picking a fight and you wipped out

that new cell phone that records small video portions? Photo the guy and

his car with his plate. Then kindly take it to the police to file a report.











David Kerchinsky

North River Racing

Camas Day Races July 27 & Aug 3

Southwest Washington's Cycling team!

http://www.northriverracing.org



_________________________________________________________________

Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.

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Cp53-@aol.com

2003-05-27



Right on! I would be 100% for something like that. It seems to me that what

that driver did was far beyond free speech.

Whenever I have a run in with a crazy driver I always let them know that

they are driving a vehicle that has a license number right on it for all to see

and that I am taking that number down. And they are not as anonymous as they

might think they are. Usually as soon as I reveal my cell phone they take off

(realizing I'm not just a sitting duck).

I've reported 2 instances that weren't quite as severe as that one in the

last 2 months (to the West Linn PD) and the officer called the person who the

vehicle was registered on both incidents to let them know they are walking a

pretty fine line (he cited the free speech crap to me too) and were going to get

themselves into trouble if they weren't more careful. The one guy stopped his

car in the middle of Willamette Falls Drive to have a yelling match with me

and then pulled out a can of pepper spray and pointed it at me. As far as I'm

concerned, that's not just free speech. The other guy got out of his car

threatening to kick my ass at the stop sign right in front of the West Linn PD.

When I pointed out that maybe we should settle this in the Police Dept. parking

lot, he got back in his car and drove off. He, got picked up the next day by

the officer I talked to (he remembered his license) for driving with a

suspended license. That, to me was some sweet revenge.

But, back to my original point. I am VERY interested in some way of

defending ourselves or arming ourselves to have a piece of ammo to drop on people who

think they can just drive around doing whatever they want without

consequence-in the name of "free speech". The police aren't always ready to help.

I commute about 40-50 miles a day round trip. I see alot of ya-hoos in that

amount of time.

I say "Power to the People!"

   Chris



Schreck, George

2003-05-27



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Actually, conduct such as barely missing someone with a car intentionally

and getting out and engaging in menacing behavior, such a pretend punches,

is definitely assault,and is criminal behavior. It is not free speech any

more than pointing a gun, and should not be allowed. The sheriff should be

pushed harder to do his job, and if he fails to do so, should be reported to

the Oregon Attorney General's office. This is not a fine line, it is way

over the line. Also, he did cause your friend to crash by his behavior. I

cannot see any reason to let this go.



        George Schreck

         Phone: (503) 813-7211

          Fax: (503) 813-7190







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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=944371523-27052003>Actually, conduct

such as barely missing someone with a car intentionally and getting out and

engaging in menacing behavior, such a pretend punches, is definitely

assault,and is criminal behavior.  It is not free speech any more than

pointing a gun, and should not be allowed.  The sheriff should be pushed

harder to do his job, and if he fails to do so, should be reported to the

Oregon

Attorney General's office.  This is not a fine line, it is way over the

line.  Also, he did cause your friend to crash by his behavior.  I

cannot see any reason to let this go.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN

class=944371523-27052003></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>

<DIV><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#800000

size=5><STRONG><EM>        George

Schreck</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>

<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#800000

size=4>         Phone: (503)

813-7211</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>

<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face="Bookman Old Style" color=#800000

size=4>          Fax: (503)

813-7190</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>

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roger-@speakeasy.net

2003-05-27



As much as I am the first one who wants to see justice brought to menacing drivers, I am not sure that without checks and balances, this is a good idea.



Hypothetically, someone with a grudge could seek revenge by reporting a ficticious incident. I am not sure if it would do any damage, but certainly it is a platform for internet slander and misinformation.



More importantly, what I perceive as irresponsible driving may not be illegal, nor may it be the perceptions of others.



Again, this would be a well intentioned effort to bring public attention to some of the miscreants on the road, but the devil is in the details.



Just my thoughts.



-r





 -----Original Message-----

From: evanmac-@aol.com [mailto:evanmac-@aol.com]

Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 08:43 PM

To: eric.k-@kingdesign.com, ob-@topica.com

Subject: RE: [OBRA Chat] crazy drivers



Did you get the name of the Sheriff you spoke to? Did you ask him what he

would do in a similar situation? Might provide some interesting insight. I guess

attempted murder and intimidation are A-OK!



BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.

Any thoughts?



Evan



"We fear the cold and the things we do not understand. But most of all we

fear the doings of the heedless ones among ourselves."

......AN INUIT SHAMAN, quoted by an early Arctic explorer (As published in

William H. Calvin's, "The River that Flows Uphill", 1986)



To respond to the whole group send to ob-@topica.com.

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EVANMAC-@aol.com

2003-05-27





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Did you get the name of the Sheriff you spoke to? Did you ask him what he

would do in a similar situation? Might provide some interesting insight. I guess

attempted murder and intimidation are A-OK!



BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with

details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone.

Any thoughts?



Evan



"We fear the cold and the things we do not understand. But most of all we

fear the doings of the heedless ones among ourselves."

......AN INUIT SHAMAN, quoted by an early Arctic explorer (As published in

William H. Calvin's, "The River that Flows Uphill", 1986)



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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT SIZE=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Arial" LANG="0">Did you get the name of the Sheriff you spoke to? Did you ask him what he would do in a similar situation? Might provide some interesting insight. I guess attempted murder and intimidation are A-OK! <BR>

<BR>

BTW, I was thinking about starting a public database of such drivers, with details on the vehicle, lic plate and driver. It would be viewable by anyone. Any thoughts?<BR>

<BR>

Evan<BR>

<BR>

"We fear the cold and the things we do not understand. But most of all we fear the doings of the heedless ones among ourselves."<BR>

......AN INUIT SHAMAN, quoted by an early Arctic explorer (As published in William H. Calvin's, "The River that Flows Uphill", 1986)<BR>

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